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Science Sunday IV

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  • Science Sunday IV

    I know it's a day late because of Bernard's wonderful effort to improve the site. That has given me some extra time to think about what I was going to say. Despite what some say, I do think about it.

    I occasionally contribute to Facebook, and, I suppose, it gives me some sense of how therapy has changed from what I thought it would become. This has resulted in my current conclusion that the use of science was destroyed by forces more powerful than I had anticipated. To use a sports analogy, it as if a running back has run directly into another player that is much bigger and stronger. Some coaching is required.

    What strikes me on Facebook is the lack of understanding about a painful complaint that remains in the therapy community, despite all that neuroscience has discovered about such a thing. There's a remarkably strong and powerful player on the other team, and it doesn't matter how good your team is, they're going to lose.

    More soon.
    Barrett L. Dorko

  • #2
    Some part of you must benefit from the never-ending battle, otherwise you wouldn't have persisted for so long without changing your team's tactics or training. How does the battle benefit you? Or, if you finally won the battle, what unwanted circumstance would arise in your experience? Teleology.... versus aetiology.
    Last edited by EG-Physio; 10-07-2017, 03:04 PM.

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    • #3
      EG,

      It's not that I don't understand your comment. We live in the age of information after all.

      Your comments are seemingly designed to sew confusion is all.
      Barrett L. Dorko

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      • #4
        We, as therapists, have turned toward a notion that spiritualists and mystics (and several other similar sorts I haven't thought to mention) have replaced the use of reductionism and the scientific method to represent what is done and thought BY THERAPISTS for painful complaint.

        Painful complaint by patients by the way.

        This is unlikely to change.
        Last edited by Barrett Dorko; 10-07-2017, 05:26 PM.
        Barrett L. Dorko

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        • #5
          What strikes me on Facebook is the lack of understanding about a painful complaint that remains in the therapy community, despite all that neuroscience has discovered about such a thing.
          At times I am unsure whether it is a lack of understanding or a choice to cater to the market. I see many things pop up on social media from colleagues who I trained with. I know they have at least some knowledge of the neuroscience, because I sat with them at university in classes run by David Butler, and located in same university as Lorimer Moseley.

          Despite this, there is a tendency to go for the short clips with quick fixes or the '5 ways to fix X pain that are guaranteed to work' kind of articles. Now I'm sure in clinic their explanations are more depth, but I think the issue comes in the form of the image presented to the community.

          How to make neuroscience short, punchy and cool is probably something to figure out.

          EG,

          Is that not what it is though? Never-ending? We work in a profession, like many health professions, which is constantly evolving as more knowledge is obtained.

          That is a good thing.

          Our problem is that change is slow, and not always welcomed. Trying to force change on those who would no want it is not easy, and probably not effective. It can also be exhausting. Without trying to assume Barrett's motivations, what I see from him and the community here is a place where people can come to find information and discussion, where the willing will happily be engaged and ideas critically evaluated. Some come, read and leave. Others, like me, come because they are unsatisfied with the explanations they have for what they do, and they stay.

          These people are already looking for change.

          I am not here to change the world or win a war, I am here to improve my understanding so that I can then use that understanding to change the way other people approach things like pain. I would be lying if I said I understood everything discussed here, and it could take a lifetime to read and understand all the information, but I'll have a bloody good crack at it. The battle benefit's me because I enjoy understanding. I also enjoy it when someone else comes to understand these things, whether I was the one who helped them to it or not.

          One person at a time. Something more akin to attrition than all-out war I suppose.
          Last edited by Benno; 11-07-2017, 12:57 AM.
          Ben

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          • #6
            Ben,

            Answering as you did is very heartening.

            Many here have, as you have said, evolved through learning and come to a greater understanding. If therapy were to understand what neuroscience has demonstrated about painful complaint they'd understand that the wrong path had been taken.

            We are overcome and overwhelmed by a cannier and larger foe, maybe a team - not designed to defeat us, but to survive in the way it can. It has, and many of us haven't.
            Barrett L. Dorko

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
              EG,

              It's not that I don't understand your comment. We live in the age of information after all.

              Your comments are seemingly designed to sew confusion is all.
              I want to be very careful not to cause confusion. If confusion happens, then I have in some small way threatened you, and that's bad practice.

              You know how SC encourages the patient to move spontaneously and without conscious interference? That can be extended to all aspects of living. Let's both post using SC as a guide and see what happens.
              Last edited by EG-Physio; 11-07-2017, 09:18 AM.

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              • #8
                EG,

                Being nice is like taking me out to dinner. Do you contend that psychics" and "spiritualists" are as able to defend what they do? Would any scrutiny make a difference?

                You hide and give no reason for it. That seems to indicate a lot.
                Barrett L. Dorko

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                • #9
                  Also, I once heard a person say that "...you've provided a teleological answer when it asked for an ontological one..."

                  I had to look up both words.
                  Barrett L. Dorko

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
                    EG,

                    Being nice is like taking me out to dinner. Do you contend that psychics" and "spiritualists" are as able to defend what they do? Would any scrutiny make a difference?

                    You hide and give no reason for it. That seems to indicate a lot.
                    I really want to push the limits of my own understanding and explore new concepts for treating pain. That's hard to do publicly when the subject matter is threatening to most people. If most patients feel threatened by modern BPS-style pain education, then the idea of 'energy healing' would make them feel very wary (the notion of it, not the practice of it).

                    Most people rubbish the idea of using the mind to heal without even looking into it. The 'flat earth society' approach is to reject and condemn without any effort to understand. I've presented a lot of information. If it makes sense, practise it and see what happens. It's so simple to try.

                    I'm not talking about psychics or spiritualists, and I'm not one myself, so let's not use those terms. We already know safety/threat is paramount when it comes to pain. All I'm saying is that to fix chronic pain, safety needs to be taken to the next level. I have studied those who get outlier results and they are creating a feeling of safety by using their minds in a certain way.

                    The way they use their mind is that they shut down - to some degree - the default waking consciousness. The patient picks up on this and decides the pain can be released. That's all there is to it.

                    I'm not an expert practitioner. What I have done is study those who are experts and figure out what's going on. When I can get it working (it's a skill) I notice an enormous difference in outcomes. My posts can be long, but that's because I'm trying to present a range of historical and modern perspectives on the same theme. It's not my breakthrough - I don't own it or sell a weekend workshop.
                    Last edited by EG-Physio; 12-07-2017, 02:56 AM.

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                    • #11
                      I'm amazed.

                      As someone once said, "You'd be better off not telling us what to do."
                      Last edited by Barrett Dorko; 12-07-2017, 03:29 AM.
                      Barrett L. Dorko

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
                        I'm amazed.

                        As someone once said, "You'd be better off not telling us what to do."
                        You're right, it doesn't work. Trying to convince others to change ('education' is the polite term) only meets with resistance.

                        I need to take my own advice and stop doing things which don't achieve the desired outcome.

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                        • #13
                          Your desired outcome was for us to take your word, with some vague and poorly supported concepts, and report back how it works for us?

                          Yeah, not happening. You'd need a LOT more plausible support than what you have offered.

                          It appears a classic case of becoming sop enamored with a cioncept, that you can not see the weakness in it.

                          I have changed my perspective on therapy about three times now in my career. All those changes were profound, and all brought on by science, plausibility, the willingness to be wrong, and critical thinking. And it was never easy.

                          Please do not think you are talking to rigid minds here. Critical, yes.

                          Ansd it appears you could use a bit more of that.
                          We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

                          I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
                          Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

                          Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

                          We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack

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                          • #14
                            Risky taking is risky. Certainly not for everyone.

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