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  • vancouverRMT
    replied
    Yesterday, prof Moseley called the word placebo "daft"
    He said it was "not anything but 'stuff' we don't have empirical data for yet".

    Leave a comment:


  • caro
    replied
    I have to think about that a bit.

    Leave a comment:


  • Electerik
    replied
    The end result, as a subjective experience of the patient, will most likely be very specific. It's goal oriented. They'll either still have pain, less pain or no pain.

    The process needed to get them there is non-specific. More often than not.

    Leave a comment:


  • caro
    replied
    What we do, us manual therapists, what we have such a hard time arguing for, sometimes produces an Absence.

    Absence of pain. Something that is as easy to describe as a sound or a taste. The people we treat arrive inhabiting that space and sometimes they climb off the table and there it is; the Absence.

    How can that ever be described as non-specific.

    Respirer Dans L'eau, Daniel Bélanger

    Le temps est blanc
    Le jour fléchit
    Belle et douce nuit

    La lune est bleue
    Je m'assoupis
    Je pars le coeur dans l'étui
    Voilà que je respire dans l'eau
    Je vole même sans plumeau
    Je suis enfin moi, enfin moi

    Et puis le jour fait ce qu'il fait
    Défait le dormeur satisfait
    Il chasse tous les corps célestes
    Tout y passe bien peu qu'il reste
    Il reste moi qui volais
    Qui respirais dans l'eau
    Moi qui étais moi, étais moi

    Moi qui souris
    Qui marche enfin
    La tête hors des épaules
    Libre dans un corps
    Moi qui jaillis
    Des souterrains
    De cent siècles de taule
    Libre à mourir de rire

    Il reste moi qui volais
    Qui respirais dans l'eau

    Moi qui souris
    Qui marche enfin
    La tête hors des épaules
    Libre dans un corps
    Moi qui jaillis
    Des souterrains
    De cent siècles de taule
    Libre à mourir de rire
    De rire
    Breathe In Water, Daniel Bélanger

    Sky is white
    The day bows to the night
    Beautiful and sweet night

    The moon is blue
    I doze off
    Leaving my heart in its holster
    Here I am, breathing in water
    Flying without my wings
    Free to be me. Finally.

    And then the day does what it does
    Defeats the satisfied sleeper
    Chasing all heavenly bodies
    Everything goes, little remains
    I remain, I who was flying
    Who could breathe in water
    I who was me, I, who was

    I who is smiling
    Who is walking, finally
    Head above the shoulders
    Free in a body
    I, who sprung from
    underground
    From centuries of emprisonment
    Free to die laughing out loud
    Last edited by caro; 20-02-2015, 07:50 PM.

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  • caro
    replied
    Butler summed it up very well here. queue to 14:25.

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  • Electerik
    replied
    As complex a process defining a "deep model" might be, I also suspect that it boils down to being simpler than most care to admit.

    pain is in the brain?
    Perhaps the deep model is "people in persistent pain need only three things. Empathy, permission to move and some hpsg?"
    1.provide non threatening sensory/discrim input
    2.provide novel salient sensory/discrim input
    3.don't provide a noceboic treatment narrative/context
    "contextual effects"
    I'm all for non-specific effects. (...)
    We are more than just warm bodies, we are warm bodies with hot nervous systems. We are enactive and embodied ourselves. We are phenomenological. Not everything has to be objective or quantifiable to be acceptable.

    Leave a comment:


  • Diane
    replied
    Check out this table from the Oberg paper:
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • Diane
    replied
    I'm all for non-specific effects. After all, they are effects that are non-pharmacological, non-medical, non-surgical.
    We are more than just warm bodies, we are warm bodies with hot nervous systems. We are enactive and embodied ourselves. We are phenomenological. Not everything has to be objective or quantifiable to be acceptable. Does it?

    Leave a comment:


  • Stephen Jeffrey
    replied
    Originally posted by caro View Post




    I'm glad you stuck around Patrick. For many reasons.
    Me Too :clap1:

    Leave a comment:


  • caro
    replied
    I am presently looking at and enjoying the pictures of NOI's ''The Protectometer'' launch in warm and sunny Australia.

    A sample of what I am hearing inside my head and what's making me giggle, on this cold, snowy late morning:

    Jo (imagined british accent) : That Lozza's really workin' the room isn't he. Just look at those ladies's faces!

    Barrett: Well, that would never fly in Ohio...

    Diane: That artwork is amazing...

    John: Butler and his crazy shirts...

    Etc, etc, etc.

    You don't need a body to have your body warmed.

    Yeah, I agree with Diane, nothing is deeper than the brain.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by caro; 19-02-2015, 06:05 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bas Asselbergs
    replied
    Patrick:
    pain is in the brain?
    After my initial dismissal of that question (sorry about that), I realized that there is a LOT of value in considering that as a "deep model", especially if it can be framed in a bio-psycho-social flavour.....

    Leave a comment:


  • beatmama
    replied
    contextual effects is a wonderful expression , I'm deep in to Louis Giffords 3rd book of the Aches and pains series and he describes what we do so much better than any lecturer , guru, teacher has ever done

    Leave a comment:


  • Diane
    replied
    Originally posted by caro View Post
    Manual therapy is the hardest thing to argue for.

    I couldn't agree more.

    And tissue-based or bio-mechanical or postural or structural imaginings just don't cut it.

    I agree with Paul Ingraham, who (I think) calls manual therapy models "mental apps".. mostly cobbled up for the therapist's benefit, not for the patient... most of them noceboic to patients when discussed too much with them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bas Asselbergs
    replied
    Yeah, Caro - I am a fan of "contextual effects". Not perfect, but better.
    Especially better than "placebo effect".

    Leave a comment:


  • caro
    replied
    Manual therapy is the hardest thing to argue for.

    Also, I think the term non-specific effects needs to go do a little dodo. More research needs to be done as to how specifically all this comes into play, but I think most neuroscientist have a fairly good handle on what goes down. Of course the science will adjust accordingly.

    It's up to us to reason what stays and what shouldn't.

    I'm glad you stuck around Patrick. For many reasons.

    Leave a comment:

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