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What will move others? II

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  • What will move others? II

    I have the impression that a remarkably ironic and paradoxical situation has emerged here, and that it accounts for a great deal seen in my own profession.

    The nature of movement lies at the heart of much we are told to do and it's typically defined as either active or passive. But beyond that are the ideas around choreography, motor planning, unconscious processing, cultural acceptance and rejection, training, dieting and several other things I'm forgetting.

    In this podcast a great deal is said about how motion can save us, change us and, maybe, improve us.

    Of greatest interest to me was the conflation of dancing with any motion, and, as we know, movement is inherent to life.

    Is it possible that my profession has simply forgotten or de-emphasized or hidden the fact that not all movement is equally helpful?
    Barrett L. Dorko

  • #2
    Okay, here's a question: Is just any movement helpful?
    Last edited by Barrett Dorko; 02-07-2014, 02:32 PM.
    Barrett L. Dorko

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    • #3
      Any movement I am unsure, in your example of hammerlock movement towards the policeman would be helpful to your tissues and nervous system, but moving away would not.

      As regards dancing its down to interpretation and mans desire to name something and make it separate, this is dancing and that is not. This is the same when people discuss whether Tracy Emins bed is art.


      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Bed[/CENTER]
      http://www.theguardian.com/artanddes...d-sale-auction

      So thoughts off of the top of my head:
      1. Not all movement is helpful, see hammerlock
      2. Stillness is never really still
      3. People in pain tend to hold themselves or part of themselves still, this is an active holding ie of poorly hand or tightening part of body to enable a limp or some such adaptaption to permit locomotion/activity.
      4. Dance is in the eye of the dancer/beholder, I see many sports people or artists where I can see dance. What makes it dance is grace and ease.
      5. What is art?
      Last edited by chrislowndes; 02-07-2014, 02:41 PM.
      Chris Lowndes
      http://thinkingmoving.me

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
        Okay, here's a question: Is just any movement helpful?
        This is such a difficult question and context dependent. A group of practitioners observing movement would probably get into the "signal versus noise" debate fairly quickly.
        Jo Bowyer
        Chartered Physiotherapist Registered Osteopath.
        "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,there is a field. I'll meet you there." Rumi

        Comment


        • #5
          PNES/NEAD

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s5CN7_JROs

          This is a form of involuntary movement that is not helpful. It can cause people to lose their job and children can be excluded from school. Families are put under pressure because the psychiatrist will want to know if there is a possibility of PTSD related to abuse. I currently see several adults with this diagnosis who are managing to continue with high powered careers and the last child I saw is currently doing well in mainstream school.

          My interest in this started when I accidentally induced non epileptic seizures, during my early forays into ideomotion/involuntary movement in the mid '70s. My approach with these patients is graded exposure to purposeful activity. The child mentioned above wanted to learn to ride a bike and his father who had taken a sabbatical from work to care for him was prepared to help him do this.
          Jo Bowyer
          Chartered Physiotherapist Registered Osteopath.
          "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,there is a field. I'll meet you there." Rumi

          Comment


          • #6
            I really appreciate that the post is getting all of this attention.

            I assume that motion that increases nociception isn't such a hot idea, but that instinct leads toward correction, even if that movement is painful because one aspect of the input side is trumped by something else and the brain has some sort of bizarre ability to see into the future, I guess. See? Complex.

            Motion that is sensed in some fashion is inherent to life.

            Me
            Barrett L. Dorko

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
              the brain has some sort of bizarre ability to see into the future, I guess.
              It can extrapolate from existing information.
              Jo Bowyer
              Chartered Physiotherapist Registered Osteopath.
              "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,there is a field. I'll meet you there." Rumi

              Comment


              • #8
                Chris says:

                People in pain tend to hold themselves or part of themselves still, this is an active holding ie of poorly hand or tightening part of body to enable a limp or some such adaptation to permit locomotion/activity.
                Where's the culture's contribution to this? The isometric which protects us even after it's no longer necessary to do so? When is self-correction going to be permitted? Does the culture itself contribute to both correction and its retardation? Is it possible for a therapist to understand this?

                Chris also says:


                What makes it dance is grace and ease.
                What is the difference between choreographed dance and improvisation? Which is preferred by the culture?

                I guess I have more than one question.
                Barrett L. Dorko

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
                  Chris says:



                  Where's the culture's contribution to this? The isometric which protects us even after it's no longer necessary to do so? When is self-correction going to be permitted? Does the culture itself contribute to both correction and its retardation? Is it possible for a therapist to understand this?

                  Chris also says:




                  What is the difference between choreographed dance and improvisation? Which is preferred by the culture?

                  I guess I have more than one question.
                  To the cultures contribution hmmmmm well maybe our "developed societies" lack of movement, or should i say less movement means we have less opportunities for spontaneous movement be it community dancing or the fact we are often dwelling in cubicles at work bracketed by several hours of sitting in a vehicle commuting. This habituated movement and lack of dancing be it joyful or shamanistic may make it harder to shake off the isometric patterns once they have served their use.

                  I read a line once and cannot remember the exact quote but it went something like this

                  "Mrs Jones lived down the street from her own body" it summed up the poor use and lack of grace and spontaneous movement.

                  By culture it depends as I mentioned that "developed societies" have it seems less and "less developed" have more.

                  I heard Tom Hanna mention during a lecture that persons in Bali when asked about what they did would not answer "I am an accountant/Nurse/Mechanic" they would answer "Well I dance*........"

                  *Insert any joyful activity they love, but in this case it was dance.

                  I suppose dance can be all, some maybe choreographed to display an emotion/act and some merely spontaneous.

                  Did I ramble or make any sense?

                  Regards
                  Chris Lowndes
                  http://thinkingmoving.me

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Learning to predict the future: the cerebellum adapts
                    feedforward movement control
                    Amy J Bastia

                    http://www.kennedykrieger.org/sites/...m/files/40.pdf;

                    from the conclusion:

                    Physiological studies and theoretical models suggest that the specific predictions computed by the cerebellum relate to future sensory states and are formed on the basis of a combination of sensory inputs and efference copies of motor commands (forward model). Alternatively, or in addition, the cerebellum could generate the motor commands leading toward a target body state (inverse model).
                    Brain Res Rev. 2010 Oct 5;65(1):14-27. doi: 10.1016/j.brainresrev.2010.05.005. Epub 2010 May 27.
                    The cerebellum and pain: passive integrator or active participator?
                    Moulton EA1, Schmahmann JD, Becerra L, Borsook D.
                    Author information
                    Abstract
                    The cerebellum is classically considered to be a brain region involved in motor processing, but it has also been implicated in non-motor, and even cognitive, functions. Though previous research suggests that the cerebellum responds to noxious stimuli, its specific role during pain is unclear. Pain is a multidimensional experience that encompasses sensory discriminative, affective motivational, and cognitive evaluative components. Cerebellar involvement during the processing of pain could thus potentially reflect a number of different functional processes. This review will summarize the animal and human research to date that indicates that (1) primary afferents conduct nociceptive (noxious) input to the cerebellum, (2) electrical and pharmacological stimulation of the cerebellum can modulate nociceptive processing, and (3) cerebellar activity occurs during the presence of acute and chronic pain. Possible functional roles for the cerebellum relating to pain will be considered, including perspectives relating to emotion, cognition, and motor control in response to pain.
                    Copyright © 2010 Elsevier B.V. All rights reserved.
                    Jo Bowyer
                    Chartered Physiotherapist Registered Osteopath.
                    "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,there is a field. I'll meet you there." Rumi

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Chris,

                      I like the phrase, "shake off the isometric patterns."

                      But the isometric can't be "shaken off" and you can only imagine a "pattern."

                      I think dancing can be a creative act. Sometimes more creative than others.
                      Barrett L. Dorko

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                      • #12
                        Of course it's not either/or.

                        When I say, "Relaxation is a consequence of expression" I mean that. What form(s) that expression might take is something each individual must find.
                        Barrett L. Dorko

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                        • #13
                          Any movement I am unsure, in your example of hammerlock movement towards the policeman would be helpful to your tissues and nervous system, but moving away would not.
                          Chris, not negating or detracting from your statement but I also think of the situation where moving away could be helpful; such as a protest situation where the person is trying to demonstrate their belief in police brutality etc and, instead of relieving their nervous system by moving towards, may struggle to move away and, in doing so, further tension up their tissue and nervous system, helpful as a form of self expression and communication to others. No easy questions huh.

                          Barrett,

                          My only qualm to the use of an 'isometric statement' is that isometric is a relative term, this muscle has tone and is at a certain length simultaneously relative to all forces both externally (as contributed by output of the exteroceptive perception output) and internally (as contributed by output of the proprioceptive perception and summated as motor output) acting upon it. So it's an output amidst a forest of similar and dissimilar outputs.
                          "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." ("Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.“) Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus Ludwig Wittgenstein
                          Question your tea spoons. Georges Perec

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mark Hollis View Post
                            Chris, not negating or detracting from your statement but I also think of the situation where moving away could be helpful; such as a protest situation where the person is trying to demonstrate their belief in police brutality etc and, instead of relieving their nervous system by moving towards, may struggle to move away and, in doing so, further tension up their tissue and nervous system, helpful as a form of self expression and communication to others. No easy questions huh..

                            I did think of discussing a possible wrongful arrest which could alter what is helpful but decided to remove the "story" which is what beliefs are, from the equation. Interpretation eh, discussing the nebulous can be well, a touch nebulous especially when you are a bear of very little brain like myself.

                            Regards
                            Last edited by chrislowndes; 03-07-2014, 10:43 AM.
                            Chris Lowndes
                            http://thinkingmoving.me

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
                              Chris,

                              I like the phrase, "shake off the isometric patterns."

                              But the isometric can't be "shaken off" and you can only imagine a "pattern."

                              I think dancing can be a creative act. Sometimes more creative than others.

                              Yes when I said shaken I was using it in the manner to which people "shake off a cold" (not the hypothermic but the virus).

                              When we are talking patterns, patterns are seen, as being in the eye of the beholder, be it movement or drawn.

                              Regards
                              Chris Lowndes
                              http://thinkingmoving.me

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