Another reason therapists don't know

[Josh]

Jo,
I'd have to disagree with your assessment. Instinct vs reflex?
Also, different purpose than treating somone in pain.

[Barrett Dorko]

Since when is the conscious mind better at solving problems and directing motion than that of the unconscious? Since when can we predict motion that is instinctive, creative and unique?

It's 2014.

[Jo Bowyer]

Jo,
I'd have to disagree with your assessment. Instinct vs reflex?
Also, different purpose than treating somone in pain.

'From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A reflex action, differently known as a reflex, is an involuntary and nearly instantaneous movement in response to a stimulus.[1] Scientific use of the term "reflex" refers to a behavior that is mediated via the reflex arc;'

I would not call what she did a 'saving reaction' either. It was a side step with the right foot after shifting her weight over the left leg and it happened without forethought.

She was complaining of pain.

[Johnny_Nada]

I can't think of one unconscious mind outperforming a conscious one

[Jo Bowyer]

I can't think of one unconscious mind ever outperforming a conscious one

Perhaps unthinking, rather than unconscious. I sometimes catch things my daughter knocks off the kitchen table, but not as often as I would like. Part of me is hypervigilant. One of the surgeons I worked with didn't seem to pay much attention to his operating field unless there was an anomaly.

[Diane]

Critter brain as opposed to human brain.

[Johnny_Nada]

Perhaps unthinking, rather than unconscious. I sometimes catch things my daughter knocks off the kitchen table, but not as often as I would like. Part of me is hypervigilant. One of the surgeons I worked with didn't seem to pay much attention to his operating field unless there was an anomaly.

Both situations with a conscious individual...

[Jo Bowyer]

Both situations with a conscious individual...

Agreed.



'Clinical Methods: The History, Physical, and Laboratory Examinations. 3rd edition.

Chapter 57 Level of Consciousness
Suzie C. Tindall.

Definition.

The normal state of consciousness comprises either the state of wakefulness, awareness, or alertness in which most human beings function while not asleep or one of the recognized stages of normal sleep from which the person can be readily awakened.'

[Barrett Dorko]

Matt says:

I can't think of one unconscious mind outperforming a conscious one

What of Eagleman's work and all he refers to?

What of Libet's study?

I thought this "unconscious" thing was pretty much determined.

[pedspainphysio]

It seems to me that we should start with what we agree on... with the patient in pain I think we would agree that often 'what' we are looking for is a movement...

The 'how' we get the movement sometimes seems to stir up debate...

I often choose choreographed neural mobilization that is under the patient's control to teach them to move in a 'safe' way... I have taken Barrett's course (twice) and thought it was fantastic, but clinically my preference is to use a Shacklock/Butler movement based approach coupled with gentle non-specific manual therapy (no manips) along with some brain based approaches (GMI, imagery etc) to address pain on a solid foundation of therapeutic neuroscience education... I am not at all saying SC is wrong or not effective, I just had some of the same legitimate questions that Josh has proposed and thus I settled on my current path... Barrett's instruction helped me on that path... I think mine is slightly different from his, but in the end, we are both looking for a movement...

In my part of the world, I actually do see some practice change... not rapid change, but change nonetheless... I think it comes down to trying to meet clinicians where they are - sometimes a very awful place from a science based perspective - and move forward with them... as we all know, change is hard...

I have asked it before... how is the current way some of us approach changing the profession workin'? I know that spent a great deal of effort in my early career in rigorous debate about practice (and still do occasionally)... I changed my approach to teaching and interacting with my colleagues and students when I realized that the answer to that question for me was - it's not.

[Mark Hollis]

Both situations with a conscious individual...

Are you creating a false dichotomy? If I ask someone to do something or if they are attending to a task is there not both a conscious component and a unconscious/subconscious component happening simultaneously. I often point out to client's that while talking to them/assessing them the background part of my movement system is maintaining sufficient tone in my (insert arbitrary body part) to stop me face planting, while I can consciously attend to some aspects of this phenomena a significant part of the process is unconscious-able.

When you get a tendon tap reflex test done on yourself the reflex sensation-movement coupling occurs and then you get the consciousable aspects of the process occurring some milliseconds later. None of the reflex itself is conscious, that which we are able to attend to is the after effect but not the effect. I can't detect the abdominal activation changes consciously when I change my arm position a little when sitting however I am able to consciously cognitise and realize that they must be present.

What's your definition of unconscious? Do you mean anaesthetized? Asleep? Aspects of brain function outside of conscious control? Or qualities of mind not able to be cognitively attended to?

[Barrett Dorko]

Peds,

I'm very glad to hear that you're still walking a path positively influenced by my teaching. Many of our colleagues seem not to be actually walking anywhere near us. This does not make them bad people. As you have found, they care very little, and I haven't changed that here in Ohio.

Yes, We're looking for a movement. My choice has long been to prefer those motions the patient does instinctively.

[Johnny_Nada]

Mark,
Unconscious=out in my context,hence our disconnect.

Barrett, scanning the libet link I get the impression he suggests there is no conscious. As if conscious is false.

[Barrett Dorko]

Blackmore says that "Consciousness is an illusion. By that I don't mean it doesn't exist, but it doesn't exist in the way we thought it did."

This is a huge field of study and, clearly, especially germane to motion, which is something I think about all the time. Why do you think I make references to "tells" in poker all the time? That includes the first post of this incredibly popular thread.

I imagined that this would discuss our colleague's never-ending supply of reasons to not know stuff. Actually, they're just waiting for me to shut up.

Usually, I do.

[eburkedpt]

Barrett,

I read your link to Libet's study. There was an episode of a show titled The Secret Brain where researchers compared the movement strategies of male and female students while tracking a remote controlled helicopter in the air. Each student was asked what their own strategy was for the tracking the helicopter. Each person's strategy was different (quickness, anticipation, etc). After mapping the helicopter's random trajectory and each person's movements. Every person displayed the same strategy while being completely unaware they were doing so. Each participant moved in a manner that kept the helicopter visually in a straight line path.

I tried to find the episode but had no luck.

Evan