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  • In the US I'm not sure about the decade. I'm certain that the ones in charge of practice have a commercial bias.

    "This is a business."

    Does that sound familiar?
    Barrett L. Dorko

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    • 2) muscles and joints are not always to blame for the reasons patients come to physios.
      Of course muscle and joints aren't the only thing to blame Nari ... there's discs and fascia to consider as well :teeth:

      I do still have a bugbear about the use of word 'output', I get it in a dichotomous 'let's move away from input' type of way but 'outcome' seems more applicable to me as it's all happening at once, all over the place, emerging and the 'put' would semantically infer there is still a separation of mind/body-ness. Anyhow sorry to divert.
      "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." ("Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.“) Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus Ludwig Wittgenstein
      Question your tea spoons. Georges Perec

      Comment


      • I agree that enculturation happens and results in people moving in uniform on choreographed ways and that we both both benefit and suffer because of this. I agree that therapists are guilty of trying to stop normal behavior likely to the detriment of the patient. I'm curious about the unplanned motion that emerges from Barrett's method and its potential purpose and use but I'm having difficulty understanding how we can know that we are removing the influence of these social norms and how the movement the emerges in the new context we create can be determined to be corrective of mechanical deformation.

        These are some of the ways I can think of to create a context that promotes unchoreographed movement and there are probably more: give permission/encouragement to move, attempt to provide an environment free from judgement or threat, education on common culturally enforced rules related to movement.

        I'm wondering if the unplanned movement that emerges in this context is really instinctive movement that corrects us or more something akin to the movement version of speaking in tongues.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Diane View Post
          In Canada, the profession hasn't evolved past the 50's, except for ortho, which became ossified into a black belt system.
          a black belt system with secret handshakes

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          • I'm having difficulty understanding how we can know that we are removing the influence of these social norms and how the movement the emerges in the new context we create can be determined to be corrective of mechanical deformation.
            We can't know... It's all supposition

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            • Mason says:

              I'm wondering if the unplanned movement that emerges in this context is really instinctive movement that corrects us or more something akin to the movement version of speaking in tongues.
              I'm at a loss here. "Speaking in tongues" is something I am as familiar with as anyone who has never actually done it, but I've never known it to include anything other than a religious context. As far as I know, there's movement of the mouth there. There's no instinctive explanation, no physiologic change and no connection to the origin of painful output secondary to mechanical deformation.

              That's a new one, and Mason, I have to ask you to explain the connection.
              Barrett L. Dorko

              Comment


              • Patrick says:

                We can't know... It's all supposition
                The word "supposition" is always defined as "a belief," and it would imply I don't understand as much as I have. The foundation of one room (mechanical deformation contributing to nociceptive input blah, blah blah) is solid, now we can build another (see this and this).

                I feel certain that "supposition" is an inappropriate word here.

                So is "all."
                Last edited by Barrett Dorko; 30-05-2014, 04:06 AM.
                Barrett L. Dorko

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                • I disagree Barrett. As long as our understanding of the pain producing neural architecture and organization is limited enough that we can best describe pain as an emergent property of a complex system, well, your ideas will remain supposition. That doesn't mean you're limited in understanding, but the suppositions built into your ideas are untestable, thus they remain suppositions.

                  Personally I don't think we have to "know" in order to apply such ideas. Supposition is probably the best we can do. But geez, you guys have been at it on this site for years, defending these suppositions as if they're self evident truths.

                  Comment


                  • http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/suppose

                    Comment


                    • The definition of supposition speaks of "belief." I see things differently than this and have to sleep on it.

                      Good discussion.
                      Barrett L. Dorko

                      Comment


                      • You seem to think that since Carpenter was the first to introduce the term ideomotion that he is the only one who has written of it, studied it or spoken about its manifestations. You're WAY off.
                        No Barrett, it is clear that’s not what I’ve been arguing, so you are the one who is way off. I’m pointing out that Carpentner’s definition of ideomotion does not coincide with your definition. You refer to unplanned movement as ideomotion. That’s misleading.
                        Despite being given a recent definition of premise, you seem to assume it is present when a method is described. I refuse to agree to disagree with you. You're not even wrong.
                        Wrong again on what you think I assume. What does the "not even wrong" phrase have to do with any of my arguments?

                        Not even wrong: " The phrase not even wrong describes any argument that purports to be scientific but fails at some fundamental level, usually in that it contains a terminal logical fallacy or it cannot be falsified by experiment"

                        What is the logical fallacy and the problem with falsification in the arguments I presented about manual therapy or about what makes a premise? Any argument can be broken down into premises and conclusions, regardless if the argument is sound or not. In a deductive argument, the premises lead to a definite conclusion. In an inductive argument, premises lead to probable conclusion. Both ways of reasoning have premises and conclusions.

                        I'm still waiting to hear from you what it is that you find pathetic about my statements on manual therapy. It gets tiring having to ask the same questions multiple times, and I'm not interested in wasting any more energy responding to what it seems to me as arguments of diversion.

                        I have failed to get myself and/or concepts understood many, many times. Now you want a list?
                        Have I asked for a list? I have asked for clarification of things that you say and make no sense to me (See above).
                        -Evan. The postings on this site are my own and do not represent the views or policies of my employer or APTA.
                        The reason why an intellectual community is necessary is that it offers the only hope of grasping the whole. -Robert Maynard Hutchins.

                        Comment


                        • A premise or premiss[a] is a statement that an argument claims will induce or justify a conclusion. from here

                          Here are a few premises

                          -we cannot differentiate instinctual behavior from learned behavior in humans
                          - the more the intelligence of an organism, the more it relies on learned behaviors and the less it relies on instincts
                          -ideomotion is not synonymous to unplanned movement
                          -there is no evidence that links the ideomotor effect to the pain experience
                          -movement that occurs during SC is neither unconscious (no capacity for awareness) nor necessarily caused by an idea (ideomotion)
                          -there is no evidence that suggests that movement that follows Simple Contact is more effective (in the context of accelerating pain resolution) than movement that the patient has already been expressing prior seeking help (anecdotes =/ data)
                          -there is no established mechanism of action that suggests that movement that occurs during SC is more effective (in the context of accelerating pain resolution) than movement that the patient has already been expressing prior seeking help
                          -gentle touch during SC does not predictably facilitate any movement
                          -it is plausible that gentle touch during SC can inhibit unplanned movement by increasing self awareness
                          -no touch is necessary for unplanned movement to emerge
                          -culture can influence movement in various ways, including facilitating unplanned movement
                          -the exact contributions of culture to a pain problem are not just unknown, but unknowable
                          -positive patient reported outcomes following gentle touch and movement (SC) can be attributed solely to the placebo, the story that the mind constructed because of the narrative provided in the context of therapy

                          Conclusion: the method and rational of Simple Contact is at best debatable, at worst nonsensical.
                          -Evan. The postings on this site are my own and do not represent the views or policies of my employer or APTA.
                          The reason why an intellectual community is necessary is that it offers the only hope of grasping the whole. -Robert Maynard Hutchins.

                          Comment


                          • That's a new one, and Mason, I have to ask you to explain the connection.
                            I came to this by way of thinking of other behaviors that are altered or suppressed by enculturation. Vocalization came to mind. There are instinctual vocalizations inherent to life that express us (e.g. screaming in fear/pain, oohs and ahs of joy and surprise). We can argue that the culture suppresses these (kids being told to keep quiet, act stoic). When asked what we are feeling it's more socially acceptable to respond with a sentence than a scream.

                            We could flesh out a theory on how this might affect a person's pain experience. Perhaps we would say inhibited vocalization causes isometric contraction creating a positive feedback loop resulting in increased sympathetic tone and decreased blood flow, or that this inhibition causes a rewiring of neural circuitry resulting in an abnormal neurodynamic.

                            The method would be promoting a context where instinctive vocalization is freely expressed. To to this we would encourage vocalization free from judgement or threat, provide education on socially enforced rules of speech etc.

                            This is where I draw the connection to speaking in tongues. This practice is catalyzed by the context of the church. From what I understand the people who practice this believe the sounds that are produced are coming from outside of them, meaning they are unplanned or not under conscious control. On closer examination though we see that these vocalizations consist of sounds known to the speaker and patterns of speech similar to the speakers native language.

                            This leads to the question of how it can be determined that unplanned movement emerging from your method is instinctual versus learned behavior.

                            Comment


                            • Anyone here had to treat people with somatic symptom disorders?
                              There is always a tinge of worry on my part that something may have been missed.
                              Jo Bowyer
                              Chartered Physiotherapist Registered Osteopath.
                              "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,there is a field. I'll meet you there." Rumi

                              Comment


                              • Evanthis lists:

                                -we cannot differentiate instinctual behavior from learned behavior in humans
                                - the more the intelligence of an organism, the more it relies on learned behaviors and the less it relies on instincts
                                -ideomotion is not synonymous to unplanned movement
                                -there is no evidence that links the ideomotor effect to the pain experience
                                -movement that occurs during SC is neither unconscious (no capacity for awareness) nor necessarily caused by an idea (ideomotion)
                                -there is no evidence that suggests that movement that follows Simple Contact is more effective (in the context of accelerating pain resolution) than movement that the patient has already been expressing prior seeking help (anecdotes =/ data)
                                -there is no established mechanism of action that suggests that movement that occurs during SC is more effective (in the context of accelerating pain resolution) than movement that the patient has already been expressing prior seeking help
                                -gentle touch during SC does not predictably facilitate any movement
                                -it is plausible that gentle touch during SC can inhibit unplanned movement by increasing self awareness
                                -no touch is necessary for unplanned movement to emerge
                                -culture can influence movement in various ways, including facilitating unplanned movement
                                -the exact contributions of culture to a pain problem are not just unknown, but unknowable
                                -positive patient reported outcomes following gentle touch and movement (SC) can be attributed solely to the placebo, the story that the mind constructed because of the narrative provided in the context of therapy
                                I put the statements I would strongly question in bold.

                                I don't know where that first one comes from or how it would be supported, anecdotally or otherwise.

                                Reduction of pain secondary to the contributions of mechanical deformation is well-known. The characteristics of correction are concurrent with this. I thought we KNEW that. I'd really appreciate some academic resources.

                                As to the third, I have agreed that unconscious is perhaps not as useful a word as nonconscious. Sorting through the difference between these two things is way beyond me, and, to my knowledge, has not been done to the satisfaction of all lexicographers and/or philosophers. Perhaps there's a range of each. I'm only guessing. Secondly, how is an idea not a thought?

                                You've equated movement with that which is only visible. Why would you do that? Anyway, if the patient is alive, they're moving in some way, and that's commonly palpable.
                                Last edited by Barrett Dorko; 30-05-2014, 02:31 PM.
                                Barrett L. Dorko

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