Another reason therapists don't know

[Barrett Dorko]

Nathan,

"Visually imperceptible" movement is common. Palpation reveals a lot we can't actually see.

I assume the table wasn't actually moving. People will move and report the characteristics of correction when I'm nowhere near if they learn how (I've said that repeatedly. Maybe there's some other way of saying it).

The "general public" is a large group, and awareness varies. Many pursue creative activity without any hope of remuneration. Ever watch a two-year-old move before they're told to "sit still"?

Are you suggesting that "isometrically locked" is an actual description of anything? That movement is confined to the joints? Does the term "suppression" mean anything? Permission?

[Josh]

Barrett is the motion seen in this group of people breathing and swallowing important?
If it is, how are you sure you are needed and can facilitate this in a meaningful consistent way?

[Barrett Dorko]

Josh asks:

Barrett is the motion seen in this group of people breathing and swallowing important?

If discomfort and/or the desire to move rises rapidly I suppose it is. Have you asked anybody to do this yet?

[zendogg]

I assume the table wasn't actually moving. People will move and report the characteristics of correction when I'm nowhere near if they learn how (I've said that repeatedly. Maybe there's some other way of saying it).

I think that's my point. However they figure out to give themselves permission to move is the goal. I'm speaking of movement that is no longer culturally restrained not restricted by biomechanical "rules". But the small movements I'm discussing in my posts here may be utterly unrelated to correction (again, right now I am conflating correction with pain relief).

Nathan

[zendogg]

Let me say this differently.

Ideomotion is inherent to life. It happens when conditions are withinh "normal". Somewhere somehow suppression has occurred. Any an area of the body, movement has been dissallowed. I would argue unconsciously.
Our hands don't catalyze ideomotion and thus give rise to correction. Correction happens in the interface between two people's context and setting (or one's self-created state change). THAT moment in time is when ideomotion returns. Ideomotion is not corrective as much as a signal that correction has begun. Movement cleans up the mess.

Nathan

[Johnny_Nada]

I'm on my phone now so I'll be quick...

is it fair to offer someone advice of any movement, large or small in any direction that results in warmth, softening and comfort?

[Barrett Dorko]

Nathan,

I would say that you're on the right track, though I'd also say that ideomotion doesn't begin correction (which is also a reduction in mechanical deformation beyond our tolerance), it is correction.

It is born with us and dies with us. It accounts for a phenomenal amount of motion, both subtle and obvious. I've been writing about it and its use as therapeutic for pain relief most of my professional career. It is rather easy to suppress and the culture seems to encourage that. As it turns out, therapists typically hate the thought of it.

When I began writing specifically of ideomotion and describing/teaching a method of catalyzing it (Simple Contact) I thought it would be accepted and understood as presented.

I was very, very wrong.

[Barrett Dorko]

Matt,

Comfort isn't a characteristic of correction.

Have I not said that?

[nari]

Matt,

...advice of any movement, large or small in any direction that results in warmth, softening and comfort?

How would anyone know what movement that could possibly be? Prediction is not possible -even if it was, it would be guidance and that is not wanted or needed.

Nari

[Barrett Dorko]

I'm with you Nari.

Is there something I'm not explaining? Is the therapist's desire to DO something too strong?

[Johnny_Nada]

What I'm proposing here is that corrective and, therefore, pain-relieving motion has four characteristics that aren't commonly seen in therapeutic exercise

Corrective and therefore pain-relieving is not comfort? Am I correct or incorrect with this?

Even if the movement itself is painful, I know that this discomfort will not endure.

I'm not sure this is accurate for many with pain

Is there something I'm not explaining? Is the therapist's desire to DO something too strong?

How would anyone know what movement that could possibly be? Prediction is not possible -even if it was, it would be guidance and that is not wanted or needed.

So i read a statement to not do anything. I suggest offering advice/guidance and this is not recommended. Pardon my confusion here…..

[Josh]

We have a tough time educating pts on movement that occurs volitionally, now we are asking them to understand movement from their unconscious center and utilize that to reduce pain? Why do patients need us to catalyze their ideomotion? Can we even do that? How do you know you have done that? How do you catalyze ideomotion in a patient, which by definition is unconscious movement, by simply touching them? Can their unconscious centers ever be wrong? Can ideomotion ever be detrimental to a patient?

If prediction and guidance is not needed, wanted or possible, why do we go to work?

[nickmPT]

This doesn't add to the discussion, but this reminds me of the movie "Forgetting Sarah Marshall" where Jason Segel is learning to surf, and Paul Rudd keeps telling him to 'do nothing' when he is practicing hopping up to stance on the board. He finally and literally does nothing and just lays prone on the board and Rudd says 'well, you kinda have to do something.'

[nari]

Hang on, guys, hang on.

If prediction and guidance is not needed, wanted or possible, why do we go to work?

To utilise the best options for relieving pain, stiffness, swelling, etc etc.
To educate patients about those conditions with the optimal science available.
To encourage independence once the result is satisfactory to both parties - preferably.
To encourage ideomotion as part of the plan towards independence.
To interact with the patient so there is mutual understanding of the problem and its solution.

Nari

[Diane]

To be a force for sanity and self-efficacy in the world
To counteract scam and all things associated with it
To dilute the effects pain has on people and peoples' lives