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  • I struggle to even conceive of what a therapeutic context for one of these people would be, as well.
    It's just a thought experiment john. Imagine a society of people free from the constraints of western society, like the Australian aborigines prior to 1788.

    The logical conclusion to draw here is that these primitive folk, free from the inhibitory effects of western culture on movement probably wouldn't be walking around with any significant degree of mechanical deformation of nervous tissue. Why? because their culture doesnt suppress movement in a manner that leads to non pathological mechanical pain (as john pointed out).

    So what happens if one provides a non threatening context and light touch to one of these folks? What does it mean if the person begins to move non-volitionally and report characteristics of correction? How would one interpret a lack of non volitional movement, and/or the absence of characteristics of correction

    Do we now assume that the presence of non volitional movement and characteristics of correction means that the culture of these primitive people must be exerting its own suppression of instinctive movement (can you say confirmation bias)? would the absence of movement and characteristics of correction mean an absence of mechanical deformation of nervous tissue (confirmation bias again).

    Or could we reasonably argue that the non volitional movement that occurs with light touch in this primitive "instinctive movement permitting" culture points away from a purported relationship between the non-volitional movement and the resolution of mechanical deformation of nervous tissue in our western (or any) culture?

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    • I was wondering why!!

      Originally posted by PatrickL View Post
      non volitionally = i didnt intend to rotate my torso to the left but it was happening as i observed it, like a spectator or something. The movement was unexpected so i guess that fits as "surprising". it was also effortless. I didnt feel any warmth or softening.

      Yes, others carried out SC on me that day... i cant remember who it was... but i didnt get any of the same movement going. also, on another occasion when barrett handled me while i was lying on the bed, i remember feeling like i was following where i thought i was supposed to move... which was very different to the non volitional movement that occurred in standing.

      I dont write any of this in a critical sense... it is just what i remember feeling.
      Thank you, Patrick.

      I was wondering why you did not have same surprise as Jason did: on my god I got it http://www.somasimple.com/forums/sho...ighlight=jason ....

      In addition, what would you think why others could not elicit your ideomotion?? And again, why Barrett could do it again on you...but your feeling was very different......???

      Since the course, what is your success with ur clients by using simple contact? When talking "success", I mean the movement you observe, the pt's feedback, the treatment outcome...etc.

      I really appreciate your time on this in particular when you are busy discussing with other members.

      Thank you,

      Regards,

      Weni

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      • If "confirmation bias" has driven my method and observation I wouldn't know it. There is the matter of my reasoning though, and, unless something else comes along I find more compelling, I'll stay with it.
        What does this even mean? How will you ever find alternative reasoning more compelling if you aren't aware of your confirmation bias?

        The thing is, I know you're aware of your confirmation bias as you often write about it. Given that, I think your response to my thought experiment (and johns response) is a total non answer.

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        • I was wondering why you did not have same surprise as Jason did: on my god I got it http://www.somasimple.com/forums/sho...ighlight=jason ....

          In addition, what would you think why others could not elicit your ideomotion?? And again, why Barrett could do it again on you...but your feeling was very different......???

          Since the course, what is your success with ur clients by using simple contact? When talking "success", I mean the movement you observe, the pt's feedback, the treatment outcome...etc.

          I really appreciate your time on this in particular when you are busy discussing with other members.
          I think that thread from Jason related to his successes with using sc in the clinic. I too was pleased when I had some success with utilizing sc in the clinic.

          I have no idea why I had a varied response with Barrett vs other PTs, or vs Barrett at other times.

          As for my success with using sc, I'm not sure what value it adds for anyone else to read about that. I will state that I think sc "works best" when the patient is distracted from the ongoing movement by conversation... And I am not much of a conversationalist.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by PatrickL View Post
            ... a purported relationship between the non-volitional movement and the resolution of mechanical deformation of nervous tissue ...
            Patrick. You don't think that we move to become more comfortable? Do you not think that movement is important for the physical health of nervous tissue?

            I think your 'thought experiment' has quite a few unfounded assumptions, and needless black/white distinctions in it. Barrett has repeatedly said that if a person is alive, there is ideomotion happening, so that would be true for your hypothetical 'primitive folk' as well. Maybe they wouldn't need as much help to express their authentic movement?

            Comment


            • I think your 'thought experiment' has quite a few unfounded assumptions, and needless black/white distinctions in it.
              Such as? What's the point in a comment like this if you're not going to elaborate?

              Comment


              • Patrick. You don't think that we move to become more comfortable? Do you not think that movement is important for the physical health of nervous tissue?
                I think move my is important for the health of all tissues

                Barrett has repeatedly said that if a person is alive, there is ideomotion happening, so that would be true for your hypothetical 'primitive folk' as well. Maybe they wouldn't need as much help to express their authentic movement?
                If ideomotion is already present in all people, is said ideomotion inauthentic? You can't have it both ways.

                How would you interpret the presence of characteristics of correction and non volitional movement during simple contact from an individual who is known to be free from culturally driven suppression of instinctive motion?

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                • You say "we are not going to figure out the nature of consciousness", and some spend enormous amounts of energy on picking over the fine detail of unconscious/non-conscious/non-volitional/ideomotor movement. But if that is what part of the premise is based on, why not debate it?
                  Exactly.

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                  • John and Barrett, I'll add that I find it frustrating that after back and forth posting for a great deal of time about coercive vs passive movement, we got to post 432 and neither of you have had anything to say (apart from what appeared to be john backing away from the debate by pointing to the broader issues at hand)?

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                    • Typo above sorry Gilbert, I meant "movement" not "move my" (auto correct got me)

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                      • Ideomotion has potential along with HVLAT, a shot of steroid in the bum, arthroscopic surgery, explain pain and the Epley manouever, for production of non specific effects. I believe that all my "successful" treatments have non specific effects as a major contributory factor and my unsuccessful ones are due to my failure to set the stage for production of non specific effects.

                        I have done several successful Epley manouvers this week and am pleased that the patients feel better. Do I honestly believe that my rather crude handling has led to repositioning of particles in a tiny organ inside the head? I don't. The theory is good, but my accuracy isn't.

                        I like ideomotion it can produce an "altered state" within seconds which may mean that the education/advice/reassurance component is swallowed. Whether this is red pill or kool aid is up to the practitioner.

                        There are several researchers out there who still see patients and those I have spoken to are of the opinion that much of what they do hands on gives rise to little more than non specific effects. They continue to do both because they are intensely curious and they still enjoy treating patients.
                        Jo Bowyer
                        Chartered Physiotherapist Registered Osteopath.
                        "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,there is a field. I'll meet you there." Rumi

                        Comment


                        • Patrick asks:

                          Do you presume that what is occurring is the resolution of mechanical deformation of nervous tissue that hasn't been processed as being sufficiently threatening to warrant a pain output?
                          My answer is yes, that would make sense.

                          We have difficulty differentiating between coercion and simply touching another here. If I'm telling others where to go, why are the characteristics of correction so prominent? Maybe they aren't. Maybe I'm talking them into just answering my questions appropriately. I don't know.

                          But I assume the patient's unconscious/movement without volition knows more about what they want to do than I do. My job is first and foremost to create a context that doesn't include other crap.

                          I once put here a picture of a facility's copy machine that was two feet from my patient's head. I got into trouble for that, but I think I made my point. I once pointed out to a supervisor that doing my job of treating patients wasn't possible in the time necessary if they wanted the paperwork completed to their satisfaction. She literally covered her ears with her hands and shook her head in response to that.

                          Patrick also asks and states:

                          If ideomotion is already present in all people, is said ideomotion inauthentic? You can't have it both ways.
                          Sure you can. Poker players fake tells all the time and police keep a perp in the box for a long time, asking the same questions over and over until something "true" (or what they want to hear) emerges. I've seen this on TV many, many times.

                          There's more, but I've still got to write today's blog post and I have no idea what it will be.

                          Wonderful, wonderful thread and questions.
                          Barrett L. Dorko

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                          • One more.

                            Patrick says:

                            How would you interpret the presence of characteristics of correction and non volitional movement during simple contact from an individual who is known to be free from culturally driven suppression of instinctive motion?
                            I can't imagine such an individual actually exists. Even if I were raised by wolves I'd often act like one of them. Think of the culture in the same vein as The Terminator. I've said to many patients, "It mainly wants to control you and sell you crap." They laugh and are relieved that something they do is countercultural.

                            Of course, the culture offers us great stuff as well. Our job is to figure out which is which. It's hard because that's a moving target.

                            Does that help?
                            Barrett L. Dorko

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                            • My job is first and foremost to create a context that doesn't include other crap.
                              Well stated.

                              Sure you can. Poker players fake tells all the time and police keep a perp in the box for a long time, asking the same questions over and over until something "true" (or what they want to hear) emerges. I've seen this on TV many, many times.
                              Are we talking non-volitional inauthentic movement?

                              I can't imagine such an individual actually exists.
                              Why not? It's just a thought experiment

                              We have difficulty differentiating between coercion and simply touching another here. If I'm telling others where to go, why are the characteristics of correction so prominent? Maybe they aren't. Maybe I'm talking them into just answering my questions appropriately. I don't know.
                              Thanks for pointing toward the uncertainty of all this.

                              Comment


                              • How would you interpret the presence of characteristics of correction and non volitional movement during simple contact from an individual who is known to be free from culturally driven suppression of instinctive motion?
                                I can't imagine such an individual actually exists.
                                We treat children and teenagers with severe learning difficulties sometimes combined with neurological conditions that severely affect development of purposeful movement. The parents bring them in because the treatment/encounter seems to calm the young person. Some of this may be due to the fact that the parent feels calmer after having done something proactive for their child.
                                Jo Bowyer
                                Chartered Physiotherapist Registered Osteopath.
                                "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,there is a field. I'll meet you there." Rumi

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