Another reason therapists don't know

[Barrett Dorko]

Okay Evanthis, let's say it isn't ideomotion. Assuming you understand it exists - what is it?

I don't think Nari suggested you take a course to experience ideomotion. You're alive, aren't you? Got a quote? I have never told anyone they should do so.

[Evanthis Raftopoulos]

Evanthis,

Well, ideomotion is not used for exam, just as a description of the active motion that seems associated with resolution.

One of my concerns is how can we conclude that the movement that occurs is indeed ideomotion and furhtermore, that is associated with long term resolution?

Until and unless it emerges it is present isometrically and/or so slowly isotonic that it remains unseen; I assume.

How do we know that? Do you think that neural firing patterns ready to be encoded to movement is the same as the ideomotor effect?

I catalyze it by deforming the skin.

In the previous comments you implied that touch is not needed but it can help by improving expectation and self awareness (correct me if I'm wrong). In my mind, improving self awareness appears to inhibit the 'unconscious' quality of the movement that we call ideomotion. That is partially why I argued earlier that subconscious makes more sense, but then we are also changing the definition and we not talking about ideomotion anymore.

Again, there seems to be a conflation of awareness of doing a motion with awareness of planning a motion. Ideomotion isn't consciously planned is all. When unexpressed as an isotonic I assume it exists as an isometric.

About planning and awareness: I think that ideomotion that you refer to during SC is consciously planned to some extend as it occurs in the context of therapy. People expect to move after you touch them, especially the therapists from here that take your class.

About movement and awareness: Unconscious implies no capacity for awareness. It seems that you are arguing that we can be aware of our ideomotion as it occurs.

[Evanthis Raftopoulos]

Okay Evanthis, let's say it isn't ideomotion. Assuming you understand it exists - what is it?

It's a form of movement, the capacity for its expression is pre existing and depends on many variables. I cannot make any therapeutic claims about it.

[Barrett Dorko]

Evanthis says:

Unconscious implies no capacity for awareness.

Since when? Ideomotion is present without volition, awareness of it varies.

[nari]

No, Evan, I did not tell you to "do a class", I would think it would be helpful if you did not compare ideomotion elicitation with MFR class mania. Just try it yourself, in a room, quietly standing or sitting or whatever. There are NO instructions available. How would anyone ever know what to say to direct you?

I personally think this is a neverending discussion, though it is certainly interesting to see how other brains grapple (or not) with the concept of nonconscious movement. Rather like the ongoing saga of free will vs the nonconscious....

Nari

[Evanthis Raftopoulos]

Hi Barrett,

as mentioned before, there are two definitions of 'unconscious'.

1. adjective: not concious, as in knocked out
2. noun, the part of the mind that is inaccessible

We are obviously talking about #2, and according to the definition my understanding is that there is no capacity for awareness/introspection.

[Evanthis Raftopoulos]

Just try it yourself, in a room, quietly standing or sitting or whatever. There are NO instructions available. How would anyone ever know what to say to direct you?

If this is the case then how can we possibly teach this to patients and be taken seriously?

I personally think this is a neverending discussion, though it is certainly interesting to see how other brains grapple (or not) with the concept of nonconscious movement.

I agree.

[nari]

If this is the case then how can we possibly teach this to patients and be taken seriously?

OK. You might find that patients are very amenable and benefit from a different approach to their symptoms. However, if not interested, then so be it.

Nari

[Barrett Dorko]

Yes Nari, I think this is a huge issue, and that sense has been reinforced by the size of this thread.

The issue of simplification has been going through my head. I haven't been corrected or stopped when pointing out that mechanical deformation beyond our tolerance increases the nociception available to the center of the neuromatrix and might result in an output of pain.

After offering the twisted finger analogy I say, "As the end result of the unique processes of your life you may have acquired some twisting within your nervous tissue. This is why you feel better with some movements and worse with others."

Then I talk to them about motion that is inherently present that both expresses and them and corrects the deformation.

There's more to it and that varies. It's simple, but doesn't violate anything we don't know or haven't studied. Prolonged relief? How on earth am I supposed to figure that out?

How can I be taken seriously? How am I supposed to know that?

[Barrett Dorko]

Evanthis says:

...my understanding is that there is no capacity for awareness/introspection.

I must say that I've never seen or heard of that before. You're not a fan of The Sopranos, are you?

[Evanthis Raftopoulos]

OK. You might find that patients are very amenable and benefit from a different approach to their symptoms. However, if not interested, then so be it.

Nari

Nari, this is the same argument that the trigger point DN enthusiasts use all the time to defend their practice.

If I wasn’t interested I wouldn’t be spending so much time posting here. I really hope that I’m proven wrong and that this movement that we call ideomotion (Carpenter would disagree IMO) is why patients improve, and that SC is very helpful towards helping people find this movement and therefore resolution. I’m just not convinced at this point given the arguments presented here. Thank you all for your willingness to engage in discussing these issues.

[Evanthis Raftopoulos]

I must say that I've never seen or heard of that before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconscious_mind

The unconscious mind (or the unconscious) consists of the processes in the mind that occur automatically and are not available to introspection,

[Evanthis Raftopoulos]

definition of unconscious

[gilbert]

Hi Nari, please don’t tell me that I need to attend a class to experience ‘ideomotion’.

As has already been said, nobody here said this.

It's just that it would be so d^&* easy for you to try ideomotion yourself, experience what it feels like, describe it, and then go on arguing about it if you like....

What's the cost of you spending 5 minutes of your time on an effortless activity?

[Barrett Dorko]

I appreciate your saying this Gilbert and the tremendous response to the initial blog post has certainly impressed me.

All that's been written about the brain's mysterious effect on us weighs on me these days, and even my contention that correction might be helpful has been called into question, reasonably.

I wonder where people aside from a very few here who have seen and experienced the workshop are.

Given Evanthis' hard work and attention to this, perhaps "unconscious" isn't the best word. I had assumed that "without volition" meant without a known plan or sequence. Does it mean something else?