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Another reason therapists don't know

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  • I've never understood it that way. Since when does our awareness of something transform it into something we're doing without volition?
    Hi Barrett, I don't think that my statement that you quoted implies that “our awareness of something transform it into something we're doing without volition”. I’ll paraphrase my point. If ideomotion is defined as unconscious movement, and unconscious means having no capacity for awareness, then it follows that there is no capacity for one to be aware of their ideomotion as it occurs. Moreover, just because we can become aware of our movement if we decide to do so, that does not conclude that the preceding movement was ideomotion. And I ask once again, how can we differentiate ideomotion from any movement that we are not focally aware? That seems to be impossible as to analyze our movement we need to become aware of it to some extend. For this reason (and others previously stated) I find the concept of ideomotion unsound in the context of assessment and treatment of painful conditions.


    The way I read this is you seem to be confused about what is a very simple idea and maybe you are being over-intellectual about its origins and place in therapy.
    Hi Nari, if it is such a simple idea then I don’t understand why nobody has been able to explain it to me yet.
    -Evan. The postings on this site are my own and do not represent the views or policies of my employer or APTA.
    The reason why an intellectual community is necessary is that it offers the only hope of grasping the whole. -Robert Maynard Hutchins.

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    • Don't small children undergo enculturation?
      Certainly.
      So how would a small child self-correct while the culture continually impinges on it? How would it know? By the time they are older, it is probably too late.
      It would need to go and live on the tundra to deculturate. Not easy.

      Patrick:
      You doubt that ideomotion could ever be used for treatment of painful conditions, so can you come up with an answer for those people whose pain disappears (often slowly, occasionally very rapidly) after its expression.

      Why is this considered "unsound"?? What is the alternative hypothesis? Particularly when some movements can be very surprising, fast and incredibly smooth and easy in comparison with any volitional movement.

      Nari

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      • Nari, I think those questions are for Evan?

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        • Evanthis,

          Well, ideomotion is not used for exam, just as a description of the active motion that seems associated with resolution. Until and unless it emerges it is present isometrically and/or so slowly isotonic that it remains unseen; I assume. I catalyze it by deforming the skin.

          At least, that's my story.

          Again, there seems to be a conflation of awareness of doing a motion with awareness of planning a motion. Ideomotion isn't consciously planned is all. When unexpressed as an isotonic I assume it exists as an isometric.

          I'm growing weary of saying that.

          Patrick says:

          ...some sort of external influence, whether it be education, emotional support or manual contact, or some combination of influences is required for correction.
          This is where we markedly diverge.
          Barrett L. Dorko

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          • So how would a small child self-correct while the culture continually impinges on it? How would it know?

            By the time they are older, it is probably too late.
            It would need to go and live on the tundra to deculturate. Not easy.
            The answer is in your comment... The child doesn't self correct. He/she succumbs to cultural influences. Therefore, we are not self corrective.

            The premise is either wrong, or incomplete.

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            • Nari,
              I don't think Patrick thinks that ideomotion is not useful in treating pain, rather I think he's just questioning it's relationship to self-correction since he's arguing that humans are not self-corrective. I think this could turn into another effort at hairsplitting over when a person goes from possessing self-corrective capacity to when they no longer possess this ability. This is when your point about patients achieving the characteristics of correction in the clinic comes into play.

              I suspect for many people this "loss" of self-corrective capacity occurs at the moment they become a patient. Which is very convenient for many of our colleagues and the continued growth of our profession.


              John Ware, PT, FAAOMPT

              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
              John Ware, PT
              Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
              "Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
              “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
              be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3

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              • Patrick says:

                The child doesn't self correct.
                They don't? How do they survive? Both resolution and ideomotion are referred to as instinctive which means they can be suppressed but needn't be learned; we're born with them.

                Telling others they need a third party or be taught how to correct...well, I'm speechless at such an idea.
                Barrett L. Dorko

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                • John,

                  Neither do I think we lose our "capacity," we are just hesitant to express it, as you say, in the presence of a therapist who knows no better and a culture seeking control. That tendency is certainly convenient for marketers of various products.

                  The word "succumb" has been used by Patrick in the same manner I would use the words "completely control." I prefer "influence."
                  Barrett L. Dorko

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                  • This is where we markedly diverge.
                    I'm not so sure Barrett. If you're not there to provide the context (through education, emotional support, and/or manual contact), what happens to the patient?

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                    • They don't?
                      Well, if some kids grow to adults who don't self correct, then it is plainly clear that humans are not self corrective.

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                      • I think this could turn into another effort at hairsplitting over when a person goes from possessing self-corrective capacity to when they no longer possess this ability.
                        I agree. Perhaps Barrett, your premise is better stated as "we have an inherent capacity for self correction".

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                        • Patrick:
                          Well, if some kids grow to adults who don't self correct, then it is plainly clear that humans are not self corrective.
                          Can you expand on this? It appears a huge leap of logic and assumption.

                          Because I read it as similar to this:
                          "If some kids grow to adults who don't sneeze, then it is plainly clear that humans don't sneeze."
                          We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

                          I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
                          Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

                          Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

                          We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack

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                          • Apologies, Patrick.
                            "we have an inherent capacity for self correction"
                            I agree with this statement - but it appears to be very latent for some folks.

                            Nari

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                            • Bas, maybe my last post provides clarification?
                              I think that when it's is stated as "we are self corrective", Barrett's premise is open to being understood as "regardless of any influence/circumstance/context, people will self correct. This is plainly at odds with one of Barrett's other key ideas... That being that the culture can suppress/inhibit self correction.

                              Stated as "we are self corrective", the premise is at worst wrong, and at best ambiguous.
                              Last edited by PatrickL; 18-05-2014, 05:47 AM.

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                              • Isn't the goal of the body to be in homeostasis? If it is, wouldn't that be the same as self corrective?

                                Definitely enjoying the discussion.

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