Another reason therapists don't know

[Johnny_Nada]

keith,

I don't see a problem.

Promotion of internal locus of control, self-efficacy, movement, graded exercise, and education sounds like rehabilitation.

[Barrett Dorko]

Of course I agree Keith.

Somehow, people have come to think that Simple Contact, which understands and catalyzes ideomotion, is the only thing a therapist need do.

If only.

[nickmPT]

If a patient appears to benefit from simple contact and is able to pay attention to their own ideomotion throughout their day and promote this ideomotion more regularly in their everyday life than there shouldn't be a problem.

Couldn't simple contact be a therapeutic activity or exercise with the documentation stating gentle movement awareness and relief?

[Jo Bowyer]

It is rare that I come across a tale of woe of which I haven't heard some version previously during the taking of a case history. I am empathetic but not distressed. Sometimes I see the patient visibly relaxing in front of me and as they relax they start to move. The role that mirror neurones play comes to mind.

[Barrett Dorko]

Nick,

I think you're right but I didn't see a functional goal there. Remember, the fact that you know a lot of stuff and your patient is much improved means nothing. If the physical therapist assistant can't just look at your notes and know precisely what to do you're worth nothing.

I just thought you'd like to know.

I know your worth, but that's not relevant.

Jo,

The way we are certainly affects the behavior of others.

Too bad that in the US this is also useless crap since you're seen by those in charge as nothing more than a warm body with a license.

I know I sound cynical today.

[Barrett Dorko]

I envisioned this thread being about how easy it is for any therapist to walk away from a conversation regarding patient care - as in, "We don't get HBO."

All the one therapist has to do is mention anything at all about something the other therapist doesn't know such as TV, history, neuroscience, any therapist aside from the ones they've personally met, movies, books, basic physics, the laws of the universe and many other things and the one who knows nothing has an out. To say that they aren't curious doesn't really get it. They're just absent. The first therapist might as well be talking to themselves.

As it is, I'm still fighting traditional care that has proven senseless.

I'm exhausted.

[advantage1]

You could get the response "We don't get HBO" or you could get this classic:

It means that we may have to agree to disagree on the importance of sc/ideomotion in PT.

I don't think there's place for 'agree to disagree' when discussing science.

[Barrett Dorko]

advantage,

I know I've written a post about that "agree to disagree" gambit and what it does to any discussion. I can't find it though. Maybe someone else can.

In the places I've worked in for the past several years there's an unwritten rule: Discussion of anything regarding the procedures of therapy is strictly prohibited.

This isn't actually written down anywhere - the walls shout it. That makes it more powerful.

In fact, therapists are commonly admonished to "use your best clinical judgment."

Imagine what I think of that.

[Josh]

advantage,
Science would say we need to be able to be able to test a theory or claim, by attempting to falsify it. We can't do that here. So that leaves us with a theory or premise, and why we may have to agree to disagree.

[zendogg]

ideomotion- inherent to life, non-structured, unconscious, instinctive, corrective movement. When someone shifts off a buttock that is aching from prolonged sitting this is ideomoteric movement, unconscious and corrective in terms of allowing the mechanical deformation of the tissue to change. This movement off the buttock, to me, seems to be a distinct expression in time due to a "build up of pressure" within the System. That pressure is released upon the movement, the system heads back toward homeostasis. The simple contact movement shown in YouTube videos is very different from an abrupt movement as described above. I gather, Barrett, that you are saying they are the same thing.

I can certainly see how culture can inhibit one's expression of ideomotion akin to shifting in a chair. A woman's hip that hurts can't be shifted because she's in a skirt. Someone won't stand up in a class to adjust their back because it's rude. And so on.

I am trying to see how these movements- the slow, often imperceptible movements "catalyzed" when lightly touch someone on a table versus an uncrossing of ones legs- are the same thing. How and why would someone prevent something that is imperceptible, clearly to 99% of the population?

And how do we equate these two motions? One a clear distinct action in time. One is this ongoing(?), slow, something.

I use simple contact in my sessions. I do see this slow motion happening. My question is: how do we conclude that this motion is corrective (which we are constantly equating with pain relieving BTW) ?

Nathan

[Diane]

ideomotion- inherent to life, non-structured, unconscious, instinctive, corrective movement. When someone shifts off a buttock that is aching from prolonged sitting this is ideomoteric movement, unconscious and corrective in terms of allowing the mechanical deformation of the tissue to change. This movement off the buttock, to me, seems to be a distinct expression in time due to a "build up of pressure" within the System. That pressure is released upon the movement, the system heads back toward homeostasis. The simple contact movement shown in YouTube videos is very different from an abrupt movement as described above. I gather, Barrett, that you are saying they are the same thing.

I can certainly see how culture can inhibit one's expression of ideomotion akin to shifting in a chair. A woman's hip that hurts can't be shifted because she's in a skirt. Someone won't stand up in a class to adjust their back because it's rude. And so on.

I am trying to see how these movements- the slow, often imperceptible movements "catalyzed" when lightly touch someone on a table versus an uncrossing of ones legs- are the same thing. How and why would someone prevent something that is imperceptible, clearly to 99% of the population?

And how do we equate these two motions? One a clear distinct action in time. One is this ongoing(?), slow, something.

I use simple contact in my sessions. I do see this slow motion happening. My question is: how do we conclude that this motion is corrective (which we are constantly equating with pain relieving BTW) ?

Nathan

My bold.

I think it's "corrective" deep in the inside, at an interface between the human brain and critter brain. Somewhere in there is where locus of control must be wrested back from the spinal cord.

As Barrett always points out, and has been my own personal experience, pain doesn't disappear (not right away at least): efficacy and motor control returns first along fanned by an internal locus of control. You can feel yourself going around some sort of corner, in which pain is no longer the boss and eventually retreats. (I'm talking about the worst pain I ever had, acute shoulder pain, three years ago now.)

I think the movement, being a mover and letting it occur, breaks up some or maybe all of the positive feedback loops in there that are busily maintaining a very undesirable neurotag. I'll never be able to think about positive feedback loops again without being reminded of that species of ant colony that smells its own pheromones and ends up marching around the base of a tree in a large circle, unable to break the pattern, until the ants die of exhaustion. Story in this link. http://nautil.us/issue/12/feedback/a...e-brains-think

[Barrett Dorko]

Nathan,

How is the motion, both seen and only palpable, unplanned, nonconsciously generated not ideomotion. You see it but have no name for it? Can't a motion have two purposes; expression and comfort? Aren't the characteristics of correction relevant here? Is it possible that the relief from movement means nothing? Since when is the speed of a motion relevant? Is it possible for our anticipation of an output of pain to lead to motion before a frank sensation ensues?

Josh,

Say to group of people, "No one move except to breathe and swallow." See what happens - then get back to us.

[proud]

advantage,

I know I've written a post about that "agree to disagree" gambit and what it does to any discussion. I can't find it though. Maybe someone else can.

Here I think. One of my favorites.

I cannot count the number of times this "agree to disagree: out has been played whenever I engage in a deep conversation about what is happending when we manually work with someone...

[proud]

And this is classic from the opening of that thread:

Not really. I’m approaching this issue from the standpoint of rational and dispassionate logic with an eye on the evidence I consider worthy. You’re going with your gut while depending upon the reliability of your senses and a worldview that I consider skewed. I’m saying you’re wrong but because of the certainty you say you have I’m not going to spend any time trying to reason with you. I’m not agreeing with anything, I’m just walking away.

[zendogg]

Barrett, I think the dissonance in my head is that the very small and often visually imperceptible motion detected in a therapeutic setting (not to mention, it's unconscious) would hardly need to be suppressed culturally. The general public has no idea it is even there! As you say, it is inherent to life and always present (except maybe in an isometric protection situation). How is it then that this is being inhibited their lives? Overt motion I can understand, but an imperceptible motion that is always present? Hmm.
To add to the discussion, we have the therapists hands (skin contact), words, presence also on the mix.
I did an experiment the other day (as has been suggested to craniosacral therapists on this site); I was feeling the soft movement we are discussing here happening with a patient, i decided to put one of my hands into my soft table to see if I still felt it. What do you know? There is was. Now either my table was moving or I was.
Is there also the possibility that OUR body's willingness to move uninhibited, coupled with OUR empathy and caring, creates a context for the patient such that they give US the trust to let our ideomotion move them in an area that has become isometrically locked? Once movement has been allowed, they trust that it is safe enough to continue to explore.