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Another reason therapists don't know

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  • Nari
    Kids, before the culture has got hold of them, elicit ideomotion without any effort.



    Oh yeah. The wee ones I read to twice a week at the public library also fart, burp, pick their noses, get up to scratch their butts or pull on their clothing or just move around aimlessly. Sometimes I let them do their thing, sometimes I intervene. I mean, I am there to read them a story. I'll tell you something though, there is one author-Robert Munsch-his stories are like an on/off switch. Those pups just stop cold in their tracks. I've been working with munchkins for over 25 years and it's always the same-I start reading this guy's material, and they just ''climb into the story''-that's what I tell them when they get distracted-''climb back into the story with me sweetie.'' But with this guy? Hell, they're way up there with me.

    When I am having a not so good day or when one of the Mommas decides to poke her face in the window, I'll ask that particularly restless pup to sit on my lap. That also helps them to "climb back into the story." Sometimes I've got one on each thigh and two leaning on my back. And I'm holding up a book and reading. Yes, there is lotsa nociception secondary to mechanical deformation going on in my 45 year old body and I do believe it is sufficient and causing ample pain. Who cares? I'm in heaven.

    I think for some, hearing the story and having their skin engaged by the leaning\sitting on the lap, creates some sort of ''interoceptive anchor''. And hopefully, this will help them to integrate having to sit down and be quiet for long periods of time, into their schema.


    I think spending time with 3-4 year olds, the blind, the deaf and Jazz musicians can really help one to understand ideomotion.
    Last edited by caro; 06-05-2014, 01:15 AM.
    Carol Lynn Chevrier LMT
    " The truth is, people may see things differently. But they don't really want to. '' Don Draper.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
      Nathan,

      What makes you think that a motion is fundamentally different just because it becomes visible? What is the difference between the word said and the word thought?

      Isn't isometric contraction typically going to be the word unsaid? Isn't the context of the situation going to change the expression of something?

      Haven't you ever watched a movie displaying the behavior of Victorians? Deadwood? Upstairs, Downstairs? Downton Abbey?

      Since when is awareness the same thing as reality?

      You'd be better off thinking in terms of "not normally planned and countercultural that is accompanied by the characteristics of correction" than that "biomechanical" movement thing you have mentioned. The latter makes no sense to me.
      How could ideomotion of the invisible sort be prohibited by culture?

      Comment


      • Nathan,

        Do you see speech as a way of moving? Don't you understand the nature of desired motion we are admonished NOT to do BY THE CULTURAL NORMS AND RULES?

        I am amazed at the question, and I'm beginning to think you couldn't possibly be serious.
        Barrett L. Dorko

        Comment


        • Yes I certainly see speech as a way of moving. Mouth, lips, jaw. visible.

          Is there some invisible form of speech you are referring to?

          Comment


          • We have spoken in this thread about motion that is knowable only via palpation. We have called it ideomotion. I have said over and over that most people have NO IDEA that it is occurring so how could it be culturally stifled?

            Comment


            • Nathan asks:

              Is there some invisible form of speech you are referring to?
              Again, you CAN'T be serious.

              And:

              ...how could it be culturally stifled?
              I'm approaching simple incredulity here. Someone else needs to answer this.
              Barrett L. Dorko

              Comment


              • Why are my pedspainphysio posts being moderated on this thread?

                Anyone have any ideas?

                Comment


                • Is it something I said? Oh, that's right, no one can see my posts...

                  Frustrated...

                  Comment


                  • I was posting as 'pedspainphysio'... Those posts are being moderated... I have registered with a new name - specialistpainphysio - so I won't be moderated... so far...

                    Comment


                    • Nathan,
                      I'm sure you've heard the old metaphors, "Cat got your tongue?" and "tongue tied". Do you see how they might refer to "invisible" speech?
                      John Ware, PT
                      Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
                      "Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
                      “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
                      be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3

                      Comment


                      • Thanks Blaise... nice to meet another peds PT working in pain...

                        Hopefully it gets worked out... I haven't been alerted to anything that I have said or posted as breaking the rules...

                        Until then, I guess I am specialistpainphysio

                        Comment


                        • "I had to bite my tongue" is another.

                          Am I wrong to be uncomprehending?
                          Barrett L. Dorko

                          Comment


                          • Peds,
                            This automatic post moderation happened to someone else recently. I think it was Greg Lehman. It's probably some glitch in the security functions here.
                            John Ware, PT
                            Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
                            "Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
                            “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
                            be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3

                            Comment


                            • Here's an article on how speech is not always conscious until after people speak.

                              http://www.nature.com/news/you-don-t...saying-1.15136

                              This is also thought true for decisions, including decisions related to movement:

                              http://www.nature.com/news/2008/0804....2008.751.html

                              But there is some controversy about these findings. Daniel Dennett has specifically questions Libet's methodology. But it blurs the lines between conscious and nonconscious.

                              I prefer the categories of implicit and explicit mind, which seem to be more popular in psychology. Implicit aligns with the nonconscious/subconscious/"critter brain" and explicit aligns with what we usually describe as consciousness. Research by Damasio and others have lent support to the hypothesis that the implicit mind is powerful, if not more powerful than the explicit. The goal of talk therapies have been to use the explicit to access and change the implicit.

                              Ideomotion, as I understand it, is implicitly produced. Therapies attempting to free ideomotion from implicitly held cultural constraints similarly uses the explicit (giving permission, education, social touch, etc.) to affect the implicit. Like psychotherapy this is a very imprecise and complex process.

                              I don't know if that made it clearer or not.

                              Nathan,

                              And if I again point to the butt shifting movement described above, how different is that movement from something done in yoga or a well diversified exercise program?
                              It's different because the butt shift is done nonconscioussly and yoga and exercise is usually done consciously (with heightened somatosensory awareness).

                              When you think of cultural restraints on movement, think of a child being told to sit still and stop fidgeting. Movement is just an manifestation of behavior. With enough "corrections" from our cultural instructors (parents, teachers, media) these behaviors become unthinking, automatic. That's when things move from the explicit (thoughts like "I shouldn't do that") to simply not doing that. Reading your posts I don't think you would disagree with this, right?

                              Your issue seems to be a matter of the degree of motion. Ideomotion comes in all degrees. And a butt shift is invisible if no one is paying attention to it.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Ryan D View Post
                                Here's an article on how speech is not always conscious until after people speak.

                                http://www.nature.com/news/you-don-t...saying-1.15136

                                This is also thought true for decisions, including decisions related to movement:

                                http://www.nature.com/news/2008/0804....2008.751.html

                                But there is some controversy about these findings. Daniel Dennett has specifically questions Libet's methodology. But it blurs the lines between conscious and nonconscious.

                                I prefer the categories of implicit and explicit mind, which seem to be more popular in psychology. Implicit aligns with the nonconscious/subconscious/"critter brain" and explicit aligns with what we usually describe as consciousness. Research by Damasio and others have lent support to the hypothesis that the implicit mind is powerful, if not more powerful than the explicit. The goal of talk therapies have been to use the explicit to access and change the implicit.

                                Ideomotion, as I understand it, is implicitly produced. Therapies attempting to free ideomotion from implicitly held cultural constraints similarly uses the explicit (giving permission, education, social touch, etc.) to affect the implicit. Like psychotherapy this is a very imprecise and complex process.

                                I don't know if that made it clearer or not.

                                Nathan,



                                It's different because the butt shift is done nonconscioussly and yoga and exercise is usually done consciously (with heightened somatosensory awareness).

                                When you think of cultural restraints on movement, think of a child being told to sit still and stop fidgeting. Movement is just an manifestation of behavior. With enough "corrections" from our cultural instructors (parents, teachers, media) these behaviors become unthinking, automatic. That's when things move from the explicit (thoughts like "I shouldn't do that") to simply not doing that. Reading your posts I don't think you would disagree with this, right?

                                Your issue seems to be a matter of the degree of motion. Ideomotion comes in all degrees. And a butt shift is invisible if no one is paying attention to it.


                                No I do not disagree with that at all.

                                I don't agree with your last sentence though. A butt shift is a butt shift no matter how you cut it. It happened.
                                Barrett, yes I am familiar with all the cliches with culturally restricted speech. If it didn't happen (speech) then it obviously was restricted somehow. Duh!

                                I am again saying that there is ongoing motion in our bodies that is regularly occurring, it can be imperceptible from an outsiders vision, it is within the definition of ideomotion. You've said it yourself that you often observe minute movement and an absence of overt movement. For now can I get an "agree" or "disagree" on this paragraph?

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