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  • Of course they could. Also mechanoreceptors, from static electricity, or small breezes bending hair follicles maybe.
    Diane
    www.dermoneuromodulation.com
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    "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

    “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

    “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

    "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

    "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

    Comment


    • Evan says:

      Thought implies mental effort.
      I disagree. Having NO thought is much more difficult. Do you mean "planning"? You seem to be referring to awareness here, and that's a difficult subject. I'll be writing about a new book on that soon.

      What is a "somatic model" and how does it differ from a "mental model"?
      Barrett L. Dorko

      Comment


      • John

        Can you think of a better rationale for a person experiencing persistent, non-pathological pain?
        With the population I see, yes I can. I have recently had more than a handful of individuals tell me they have pain but cannot identify a location. For those without negative psychological or social factors, no I can't

        I do other stuff, too.
        Such as?
        "The views expressed here are my own and do not reflect the views of my employer."

        Comment


        • Matt,

          Can these people alter their pain with position and/or use? Have you asked? Do you know yet what that implies quite strongly?

          Location is the least important finding when it comes to a painful complaint because the problem is in the nervous system rather than a specific nerve.

          Do I sound like a broken record?
          Barrett L. Dorko

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
            I disagree. Having NO thought is much more difficult. Do you mean "planning"? You seem to be referring to awareness here, and that's a difficult subject. I'll be writing about a new book on that soon.

            Mental effort in my mind relates to cognition, it does not necessary imply difficulty or concentration.

            I don’t think that movement that is generated by the subconscious, or movement that is truly instinctual (I think that these two are not exactly the same) is directly related to thought, as in thought happens and ideomotion follows. But like thought, the capacity for the organism to evaluate the need for movement (goal= optimal health) and generate this movement behavior is pre existing. Perhaps when memories or thoughts of movement are encoded, new opportunities for movement behaviors arise that can allow for ideomotion, but this is just a speculation on my part. If this theory is true and assuming ideomotion exists and has a purpose (optimal health), then it supports therapeutic exercise and novel movement patterns.


            What is a "somatic model" and how does it differ from a "mental model"?
            The mind is a mental model,as it guides and predicts behavior. It is encoded in the organism. Say for example one is afraid of heights, then the behavior when standing at the edge of a cliff is pre determined and can be accurately predicted. Similarly, when culture is thought to pre-determine movement behaviors, this relates to mental models. Somatic is related to the body, and we have no direct control over somatic behavior which includes truly instinctual movement. However, it gets blurry to distinguish these two by observation as mental and somatic models are in constant interaction.
            -Evan. The postings on this site are my own and do not represent the views or policies of my employer or APTA.
            The reason why an intellectual community is necessary is that it offers the only hope of grasping the whole. -Robert Maynard Hutchins.

            Comment


            • references:
              Anticipatory Systems
              Philosophical, Mathematical, and Methodological Foundations
              Series: IFSR International Series on Systems Science and Engineering, Vol. 1
              Rosen, Robert, 2nd ed. 2012
              -Evan. The postings on this site are my own and do not represent the views or policies of my employer or APTA.
              The reason why an intellectual community is necessary is that it offers the only hope of grasping the whole. -Robert Maynard Hutchins.

              Comment


              • Could thermoreceptors in the skin detect a hovering hand?
                I agree with what Diane says. Awareness of a thing or person where sight, taste, smell and touch is not involved is another one of our alert senses.

                Nari

                Comment


                • Evan,
                  I find your posts interesting and thoughtful. One question: if the conscious 'mind' exists, then your arguments hold some water. If it is ever shown clearly that consciousness does not exist then they don't. I think.

                  The real difficulty lies with assuming that we have control over nearly all our actions and therefore eliciting ideomotion is a challenge before we even try to elicit instinctive movement.

                  Kids, before the culture has got hold of them, elicit ideomotion without any effort.

                  Nari

                  Comment


                  • Josh, I want to get back to this:
                    Of course the patient directs speed, amplitude, and direction...
                    Could you explain how you see these parameters are arrived at in the patient's conscious brain. I am truly curious.

                    And what would your instruction or advise be to that patient for the motion to begin?
                    We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

                    I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
                    Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

                    Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

                    We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack

                    Comment


                    • With regards to consciously generated motion: there is VERY little of that in most people's lives on a daily basis, except in some parts of athletic performance and specific exercises, and a few chosen motions (learning to dance or any other specific skill).
                      Jo's example of the surgeon is a good one to illustrate that. Same thing with an assembly line worker, having a deep debate about politics while the hands are busy doing.
                      We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

                      I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
                      Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

                      Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

                      We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack

                      Comment


                      • With the population I see, yes I can. I have recently had more than a handful of individuals tell me they have pain but cannot identify a location. For those without negative psychological or social factors, no I can't
                        Congratulations, Matt, it sounds like you are becoming the "pain guy" where you work.

                        If someone is not distressed by their non-pathological pain, then I don't why we would should even be seeing them. Is distress a psychological or social factor? I think so.

                        In addition to pain education, I do manual therapy- mostly skin deep, but some oscillatory stuff from time to time. I teach patients to do novel movements per Cory Blickenstaff. I use some Hannah Somatics and Feldy stuff as well. Often I'll note to the patient when they are moving non-consciously, so I guess I do some Simple Contact, too. I emphasize graded aerobic training for my long-term deconditioned fibromyalgia type patients. In fact, I contract with them that they must begin a 3 day/week program of graded aerobic activity based on a combination of target heart rate and RPE. The amount of time per week varies, but usually starts at a minimum of 10 minutes per session. I've begun using more sensorimotor training with some of my spinal pain patients, including sensory discrimination: two-point discrimination and graphesthesia.
                        John Ware, PT
                        Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
                        "Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
                        “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
                        be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3

                        Comment


                        • Fine John.

                          I'd like to know if Matt has answers to my questions in post #141 as well.
                          Barrett L. Dorko

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
                            Matt,

                            Can these people alter their pain with position and/or use? Have you asked? Do you know yet what that implies quite strongly?

                            Location is the least important finding when it comes to a painful complaint because the problem is in the nervous system rather than a specific nerve.

                            Do I sound like a broken record?
                            Barrett,

                            This is one of my first questions with those I see. Many answer no. For some this is true. For many i find a lack of tolerance for movement is most common; high pain levels that only progress with movement. No movement provides comfort, reduction or reported benefit. You may call this an abnormal neurodynamic. I wouldn't disagree.

                            As far as location, I understand your statement and I do not 'chase' pain. I am always looking for a movement, position for reduction. It just so happens this was the first time I had heard this. "I have pain, but I don't know where."
                            "The views expressed here are my own and do not reflect the views of my employer."

                            Comment


                            • "I have pain, but I don't know where."
                              I find this an intriguing statement. I wonder if they mean they can't point specifically to a smallish area? As if looking for an origin? cause? That is how I would interpret it.

                              If that is so, (yes, I hate to admit it), ideomotion can be helpful in reducing the pain. Then, once a degree of comfort is obtained, take it from there in whatever way you wish.
                              Depending on how you win rapport with the patient; with some that never really happens, I found.

                              Nari

                              Comment


                              • Hi Nari

                                consciousness exists, clearly, and it maps to neural firing patterns. And so is experiencing pain.

                                I don't think that we can purposely elicit true instinctual movement. Movement that is part of the subconscious mind (neural firing patterns ready to be encoded) is not necessarily instinctual.
                                -Evan. The postings on this site are my own and do not represent the views or policies of my employer or APTA.
                                The reason why an intellectual community is necessary is that it offers the only hope of grasping the whole. -Robert Maynard Hutchins.

                                Comment

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