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  • #16
    Where secrecy or mystery begins, vice or roguery is not far off. --Samuel Johnson (quote in OP)
    Engage with a craniosacralist long enough, and they will be bound to produce a quote that is full of exquisite nuggets of nonsense and irrationality that is ultimately designed to introduce their estoeric treatment approach. Here is a real dandy that's fresh off the "presses":

    ...the idea of "manual handling" as therapy in this case doesn't really match the implications of Porges research or clinical results. The clinical approaches that help improve socialisation for ASDs all recognise that this is a case of hypersensitivity at a deep neurological (i.e. not a behavioural or cognitive) level.
    Do you see what he has so cleverly done here? (It doesn't really matter who Porges is or what ASD refers to, so ignore that). What he's done is set the stage for rationalizing using craniosacral nonsense on patients with this condition because it works on "a deeper neurological level" (whatever that means). He's placed my interpretation of CST in scare quotes because he's offended that such a rudimentary term can capture the esotericism and skill of this beloved craniosacral therapy.

    Vice and roguery, indeed.
    John Ware, PT
    Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
    "Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
    “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
    be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3

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    • #17
      Thanks John.

      What I felt was missing from this discussion was the acknowledgment of how mystery always invites charlatanism. After all, there's a reason those guys made their crop circles in the dark.

      Two things have contributed to the craziness that passes for therapy for painful problems: ignorance of modern neuroscience and someone's realization that there's a sucker born every minute (just made that up).
      Barrett L. Dorko

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Bas Asselbergs View Post
        ANdy, this IS via the left side of the matrix...
        It well might be Bas but it does not entail a need for us as physiotherapists. Rather it seems to imply the need for our absence.


        I agree Proud with what you suggest in so far as our diagnostic abilities but are we necessary or are we just further muddying the water when other practitioners could do the same. Arguably a n accurate diagnosis from a Dr is always going to be more powerful given the perceived authority. Do we simply need better trained GP's?

        We do seem to have a problem with specialization where too many senior Doctors/Consultants seem to have far to narrow knowledge coupled with highly technical but limited skillsets and lack the general oversight that care so often demands. I think that too often we, as physiochiropathics, simply ape that, a pale shadow that haunts the passageway of healthcare leeching life from those who pass too close to our undead shades.

        ANdy (feeling au contraire)
        Last edited by amacs; 07-09-2013, 12:10 AM.
        "Here is Edward Bear coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head behind Christopher Robin. It is, as far as he knows, the only way of coming downstairs, but sometimes he feels that there is another way, if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it." A.A. Milne

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        • #19
          Originally posted by amacs View Post
          It well might be Bas but it does not entail a need for us as physiotherapists. Rather it seems to imply the need for our absence.

          Symptom management segues into rehab. In my case this has involved working with injured fencers and their coaches during lessons and accompanying 83 year old Mrs X down to the local bus depot so that we can educate the drivers about the difficulties encountered on public transport by veteran shopping athletes (Her idea).

          My training was hospital rather than university based and during the first year we studied Anatomy,Physiology,Massage,and Movement. Some of it was badly taught but it left me with the impression that the understanding of movement and the factors that affect it was the key to rehab.

          Anxiety,pain,swelling,fatigue,nausea and dizziness are symptoms that I attempt to influence via the nervous system by minimal use of language touch and movement,followed by standing/walking alongside,then emails/voicemail/texts.

          No one wants to have to be dependent on others. Those I have met who are in this position have constant varying levels of anxiety that their support networks will collapse,they feel lost.

          There is a need for our absence within the patient and it is they that have to recognise it.

          If the quality of our presence is sufficient,they do.
          Last edited by Jo Bowyer; 07-09-2013, 02:20 PM.
          Jo Bowyer
          Chartered Physiotherapist Registered Osteopath.
          "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,there is a field. I'll meet you there." Rumi

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          • #20
            ANdy,

            You have a valid concern and I couldn't agree more with Bas, but I also think the Left Vs. R sides of the diagram is misleading because of its simplicity. It implies a sequential relationship that functionally doesn't exist. Somebody in the Feldenkrais camp, said and certainly paraphrased, " when we feel something from our bodies , what we are really feeling is ourselves acting" . It doesn't start with sensation. The process is conscious only after both sides of the diagram have spoken.
            D. Juhan, describes the CNS design as consisting of 1/2 of the neurons pointing their dendrites inward and 1/2 pointing theirs outward. He says this creates a centripetal / centrifugal exchange whose location can not be identified. Even though its edges are more clearly defined and therefore better suited for us to discuss, it is the chaotic inside that attracts us at this site. Barrett, is this the point regarding the mystery?
            Gil

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            • #21
              Gil says:

              The process is conscious only after both sides of the diagram have spoken.
              Exactly. I first heard Diane say that both sides influence the middle and I emphasize that. In Ohio, most people only read left to right, so this influences them, as you say. What's the deal in Wisconsin?

              Anyway, I use the word mystery to identify something that defies our knowing exactly what happened, why or when. Puzzles are on the right and left sides and might be more easily sensed and solved. I think. I'm almost sure.

              Not only is the center of the framework a mystery, it swirls. To me, this makes it a deep mystery. No wonder so many of our colleagues run from it while a few see within an opportunity for the confusion that precedes their exploiting that.
              Barrett L. Dorko

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              • #22
                To me, this makes it a deep mystery. No wonder so many of our colleagues run from it while a few see within an opportunity for the confusion that precedes their exploiting that. (bold added)
                Yes. What a craniosacralist might refer to as "a deep neurological level".

                What more do you need to hear to be convinced that this particular "approach" is complete and utter crapola? This reminds me of when I caught my son with bright blue stains around his mouth after he'd been told not to eat another popsicle and when confronted with the reality of his perioral blueness, he staunchly replied, "My face is cold."
                John Ware, PT
                Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
                "Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
                “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
                be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3

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                • #23
                  The to me more important arrows in the matrix are not always seen clearly by the first-time observer: the circular feedback and feedforward loops in the (CSA) centre.

                  I do think in our present society, PTs like these on Soma are necessary for the right side so the patient can become aware and learn (verbal, manual, non-verbal, motion, correction). Then they will step back.

                  The centre is where and why charlatans have a heyday - and probably well-meaning people too like Carol Davis, whose own neuromatrix-self is fogged over (I am being generous here).
                  We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

                  I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
                  Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

                  Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

                  We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack

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                  • #24
                    with Bas, but I also think the Left Vs. R sides of the diagram is misleading because of its simplicity. It implies a sequential relationship that functionally doesn't exist
                    Thank you Gil for your response. A salutary reminder for me to remember that the diagram of the NM is a two dimensional representation of a far more complex reality and the terms left and right right arise because we read it left to right. I continue to surprise myself with how I all too frequently fall into that kind of error.


                    ANdy
                    "Here is Edward Bear coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head behind Christopher Robin. It is, as far as he knows, the only way of coming downstairs, but sometimes he feels that there is another way, if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it." A.A. Milne

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