Not agreeing to disagree

[Barrett Dorko]

Are you certain about that?

Yea.

Okay, thanks for telling me. If that’s the case I won’t put any effort into altering what you think.

What do you mean?

I mean that your feeling of certainty about this is known to rise from the same neuronal processes that produce emotions another cannot change.

But aren’t you supposed to try?

I used to, but now we know that certainty and similar states of ‘knowing what we know’ come from involuntary brain functions that, like love and anger, function independently of reason.

So, you’re saying that I’m acting unreasonably?

No, I’m saying that reason isn’t at the forefront of your thinking. That doesn’t make you a bad person; it just means that you’re human. When you’re certain about something evidence to the contrary doesn’t really make any difference. Ever try to talk someone else out of being in love? Doesn’t work.

So I guess we’ll just agree to disagree.

Not really. I’m approaching this issue from the standpoint of rational and dispassionate logic with an eye on the evidence I consider worthy. You’re going with your gut while depending upon the reliability of your senses and a worldview that I consider skewed. I’m saying you’re wrong but because of the certainty you say you have I’m not going to spend any time trying to reason with you. I’m not agreeing with anything, I’m just walking away.

[Barrett Dorko]

Here's a thread from 2008 that references the research regarding the neuroscience of certainty.

[proud]

Brilliant.

Now...if only I could articulate that so elequantly in a real conversation with some of my "certain" colleagues...

I'd likely get punched.

[Barrett Dorko]

Punch potential

[rkathryn]

Barrett, once again you've eloquently explained why something makes me uncomfortable. I've never liked that phrase "Guess we'll agree to disagree" but couldn't ever put my finger on why until reading your post this morning.

[Barrett Dorko]

Thanks Rajam.

Another way of putting it:

"I'm not agreeing to disagree because that places our arguments on an equal footing. Mine is defensible with good evidence offered after a course of careful investigation and yours by wishful thinking."

Alomost sure to get you punched.

[proud]

"I'm not agreeing to disagree because that places our arguments on an equal footing. Mine is defensible with good evidence offered after a course of careful investigation and yours by wishful thinking."

I laughed out loud at this. Just excellent.

Yes, I'm sure that would get me punched. I think I'll try it....

[Barrett Dorko]

proud, "Wishful" may be replaced with "magical" for greater effect.

Put on a helmut with a face mask just before you say it. If the one you expect to punch you doesn't laugh you can also tell them they have no sense of humor.

[advantage1]

I would risk getting punched saying this since I believe that the benefit outweighs the risk. What's the benefit? Saying what needs to be said.

[Greg Lehman]

I wish i could be so certain as everyone here.

[Randy Dixon]

I wish i could be so certain as everyone here.

That is the trick isn't it Greg, when both parties say the exact same thing, that their answer is based on evidence while the other person's is based on emotion, ignorance. poor reasoning or magical thinking.

What then? It advances to "MY answer really IS based on reason".

[Barrett Dorko]

Randy,

You're writing as if it couldn't be determined which is which, and that's not the case. People disagree with me all the time but their idea of evidence is the sort claimed by Wakefield and Oschman and Gerber, all of them discredited. My evidence is gleaned from the conclusions of Ramachandran and Wall.

Burton differentiates between certainty (something inevitable but now understood and thus avoidable) and knowing (not a feeling). The latter is defensible, the former is not.

As best I can, I avoid certainty, and that takes work.

[proud]

I wish i could be so certain as everyone here.

Interesting comment and I anticipated it's appearence. I expected it from Randy however:teeth:

This comment though suggests entire certainty...for which I am not. Treating patients is an ever evolving thing for me based on what the science and evidence is telling me.

I am however certain when it comes to the things I find myself at odds with many (most) of my colleagues. For the very reasons Barrett just stated. For these matters....I'm certain.

Is there not anything you are certain of Greg? Randy? Because when it comes to what we do...there are things that are now established as certain...it's just most of our colleagues, well...don't read oustide of the preachings of the local guru.

[Barrett Dorko]

I doubt that many here are familiar with what Gerber did, but here's an essay I wrote about it a few years ago.

After that, I had a student; a prominent PT and faculty member, who referred to his writing all the time. She wasn't interested in discussing this omission and ended up just concluding that I was a close-minded idiot.

[advantage1]

Barrett,

Did you bring this ommission to her attention? If so, why do you think she refused to acknowledge it?