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  • Pay no attention!

    The denouement of that movie begins with the pulling back of the curtain. This is done, of course, by Toto, Dorothy’s instinct and the whole reason for that trip to Oz, according to me anyway.

    Diane Jacobs' latest blog post should be read by everyone who normally reads Range of Motion and I get an average of 200 views in the first 18 hours anytime I post.

    This bit of blogging has now grown close to 300 replies and 7000 views. All about a method I have never used (or intend to) and a theory that has increasingly been called into question.

    Diane’s writing and the link in that article make the reasoning that precedes the needling even more suspect and I’d love to see someone defend it in light of this new evidence.

    Let me add this: Abductive reasoning, explained in detail here, also precludes the possibility that things are as the purveyors of dry needling say they are. Once again, I’m not talking about the results they claim.

    Remember the Wizard’s initial attempt to hide his true nature? He said, “Pay no attention!”

    It didn’t work then and it’s not going to work now.

    Over to you.
    Last edited by Barrett Dorko; 04-02-2012, 02:18 PM.
    Barrett L. Dorko

  • #2
    Yes, and the same can be said for the people who believe that since everything has to do with the mind and nervous system............we should all just use hypnotism since "it's all about the mind". (Which is actually going on in a discussion on a massage board for "evidence based" massage therapy.

    How about some hypnotism & acupuncture......wait, don't steal my idea now!

    The dry needling reminds me of a course I took called "Introduction to Structural Integration" (or really, a modern term for Rolfing). For those of you not familiar, Rolfing was developed by a woman named Ida Rolf who set up in Northern California in the 1940's to practice a type of very painful active engagement work to "loosen fascial restrictions" and "tissues" of the body. Anyway, in this class (before I met Norman Doidge, who led me to somasimple-- as well as the encouragement of a colleague from the East) the instructor was showing a technique to release the ankle. I inquired that wouldn't it be counter-productive to do this type of work on someone such as a ballet dancer who has hypermobile ankles and the instructor replied-- I'm working the bones of the ankle, not the ligaments. To which the student (who was the person being worked on) said, "yeah, he's working on the bones of my ankle, not anything else."

    Shocked, I tell you, shocked. Too shocked to reply, "Oh, so you're accessing the bones of the ankle and completely bypassing the muscles, fascia, ligaments, (nerves) are you?"

    Well, that's one of the many reasons I ended up here anyway.....
    Last edited by rkathryn; 04-02-2012, 12:58 PM.
    "The danger is not that the soul should doubt whether there is any bread, but that, by a lie, it should persuade itself that it is not hungry" (Simone Weil)

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    • #3
      Barrett,

      Brilliant post. You really should copy/paste it over to Mikey's blog....

      Wasn't sure where the reference to the wizard was going but...spot on.

      Thanks for that.

      Comment


      • #4
        Thank you for the replies.

        Referencing the wizard is always a good idea, and easy to do. For instance, when one of the brothers on Two and a Half Men couldn't find their perfectly awful mother a few years ago the other asked, "Have you asked the captain of the flying monkeys?"

        Brilliant.

        Linking this to Mike's blog is tricky. I'm hoping someone else will do it. Anyway, its "tone" is rather "negative."

        Again, can anyone say in a simple fashion how abductive reasoning enters in here now?
        Barrett L. Dorko

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks for linking my blogpost Barrett.
          Diane
          www.dermoneuromodulation.com
          SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
          HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
          Neurotonics PT Teamblog
          Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
          Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
          @PainPhysiosCan
          WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
          @WCPTPTPN
          Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

          @dfjpt
          SomaSimple on Facebook
          @somasimple

          "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

          “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

          “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

          "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

          "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

          Comment


          • #6
            You're quite welcome.

            It seems that though the regular contributors here cannot be said to always agree and that none of us is looking for a leader, we are (as they say on the reality shows) "a force to be reckoned with."

            There's another line - the most common used on any of those shows: "I'm not here to make friends."
            Barrett L. Dorko

            Comment


            • #7
              Blogpost, To sum up.
              Diane
              www.dermoneuromodulation.com
              SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
              HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
              Neurotonics PT Teamblog
              Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
              Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
              @PainPhysiosCan
              WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
              @WCPTPTPN
              Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

              @dfjpt
              SomaSimple on Facebook
              @somasimple

              "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

              “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

              “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

              "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

              "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

              Comment


              • #8
                Given the interest, and it is just about all that I can measure, this discussion seems to point toward a turning point in our profession's worldview. In fact, dry needling, to me, is the logical conclusion both in theory and practice to a mesodermal mind-set in relation to persistent pain.

                No wonder we went there.

                Any thoughts regarding abductive reasoning yet? I've my own statement about it prepared but will wait to post that.
                Barrett L. Dorko

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks to Glen over at Mike's blog:

                  The video referenced above.

                  Glen, have you been here before? Who are you?
                  Barrett L. Dorko

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sorry..that is my first name. So...it's me.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by proud View Post
                      Sorry..that is my first name. So...it's me.
                      :clap2:

                      Hey, hi Glen.
                      Diane
                      www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                      SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                      HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                      Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                      Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                      Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                      @PainPhysiosCan
                      WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                      @WCPTPTPN
                      Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                      @dfjpt
                      SomaSimple on Facebook
                      @somasimple

                      "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                      “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                      “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                      "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                      "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        "I'm a very good man, I'm just a very bad wizard"

                        I wonder if I'd be able to get some of my old ortho instructors to admit to being bad wizards? They would probably just look at me stunned and say that Rob is such a pain!
                        Rob Willcott Physiotherapist

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Abductive reasoning follows the following pattern:

                          Some phenomena P is observed.

                          P would be explicable if H were true.

                          Hence there is reason to think that H is true.

                          From the link in the first post.
                          If muscular tissue were “lesioned” as proposed and if it were necessary to physically alter the peripheral tissue in the manner needling does, working on a rubber hand wouldn’t alter anything.
                          Barrett L. Dorko

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Nice to meet you, Glen.

                            Barrett,
                            The dry needlers will, of course, discount the article utilizing the rubber hand illusion to explain the affects of acupuncture since they claim to be inserting their needles through the skin into muscle.

                            However, even their deductive reasoning from the muscle pain meme falls apart when it is pointed out how utterly implausible it is that a dry needle would never hit some kind of nervous tissue on its way into the muscle.

                            I just read through Diane's discussion with Arthur on her blog site, and to Diane's query about what exactly he thought he was poking, this was his answer:
                            You are right, of course, there are nerves and blood vessels that are hit with needling. Maybe one out of ten patients will have a very small drop of blood exit with the needle. Fewer still may bruise. If a nerve is hit there may be a second of nerve associated pain. The next pass of the needle generally misses a nerve. There are areas to avoid around neurovascular bundles.
                            That bolded statement is stunning in its utter lack of plausibility. Misses a nerve? Really??

                            I'm struck by the word of caution at the end of Arthur's statement-it's actually funny in an absurd kind of way in how it portrays a caricature of the nervous system. He seems to envision the human body like a game board with signs that read "Caution: Neurovascular bundle here!" and "Do not pass skin, do not collect pain relief for patient".

                            This would be a fun game to play if we weren't dealing with real people in real pain.
                            John Ware, PT
                            Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
                            "Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
                            “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
                            be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              This thread has had over 500 views in one day - easily a record, and on a Saturday no less.

                              Links to it have been retweeted from several other sites and Matheson's Rehab and Safety Daily made it their #1 story this morning.

                              Not a single word in opposition to its implications or conclusions.

                              The connection to the Wizard (in the movie, not the book) has become clearer to me. The line from the old America song, "Oz never did give nothing to the Tin Man that he didn't already have" keeps running through my head.

                              There'a also the issue of his escaping any responsibility and not answering questions after he bloviates for a while by floating away and claiming ignorance i.e. "I don't know how to run this thing!"

                              Anybody want to build upon that?
                              Barrett L. Dorko

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