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  • Butler's brilliance

    I read his first book, Mobilization of the Nervous System, as soon as it was published in 1990. This was back when you had to take a letter for Australia to the post office, figure out the postage and then wait. He wrote me back immediately, and I still have the reply.

    It seems to me that the great majority of physical therapists are stuck at one end of the afferent neuron and even then their treatment avenue is via target tissues. We need to encourage therapists to look along the nerves, trunk, cord, autonomic nervous system and the forgotten brain!
    Perhaps I sensed something. David Butler’s star has continued to rise since, and for good reason. He has worked diligently to remain connected to the research and academic communities, and has completed an educational degree himself. I haven’t done any of that.

    Still, we continue to agree on many aspects of theory and technique. In fact, the only thing I see missing from his treatment is the encouragement of instinctive motion for correction. I guess that’s my thing. He just doesn’t care for it, I guess.

    Anyway, this interview with David is something every therapist should listen to.

    He says many things but two really stood out for me. He speaks briefly of what the sciences say about observable clinical phenomena and the support for proposed theory, seeming to distinguish this from evidence of effectiveness. It sounds like a movement toward “science-based” thinking to me though he never says that. (see The Wrong Question for more about this)

    Butler also questions the sharp distinction between acute and chronic pain. I’ve been questioning that since 1980.

    Finally, there is his renewed appreciation for neuroplasticity. The man interviewing him seemed averse to this though it is obviously a fact clinicians shouldn’t ignore. I expressed my feelings about this in the Suppose This Were True thread.

    I’d love to hear what Butler has to say about that, but I guess he doesn’t read such things.
    Barrett L. Dorko

  • #2
    Just listened to the whole thing again.
    What comes very strongly to the forefront, is that David has a BIG capacity for patience: the interviewer is so clearly out of his league that he keeps tossing in the non-sequitur reactions. David has a gift of gently staying, or steering matters back on track, while communicating the science very well.

    I think that is where his status has grown from - his ability to communicate so effortlessly about complexities - and not by alienating others. I remember Cyriax' talks, Kaltenborn, Evjenth and Janda for instance - all big names in the rehab world (set aside their concepts for a moment); none of them brought their message as effective and non-offending as David.

    I do not mean to take away from his scientific endeavours or great insights - just saying that I think his ability to speak and write so effectively are crucial to the quickness and size of his "revolution".
    We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

    I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
    Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

    Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

    We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack

    Comment


    • #3
      I appreciate what you're saying. What revolution?
      Barrett L. Dorko

      Comment


      • #4
        The focus on the nervous system as primary entry point for therapy.
        It wasn't his alone, not was it fully new, hence my quotation marks.
        We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

        I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
        Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

        Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

        We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack

        Comment


        • #5
          ...his ability to communicate so effortlessly about complexities - and not by alienating others.
          I agree w/ Bas on this...it is this that is making me actually stick with (and *want to* stick with) making my way through his 400 pages in "The Sensitive Nervous System"

          And Barrett, this quote from your original post:

          In fact, the only thing I see missing from his treatment is the encouragement of instinctive motion for correction. I guess that’s my thing. He just doesn’t care for it, I guess.
          put a question into my mind- do you find that therapists that are more left-brained, "structured" types have more difficulty with grasping Simple Contact? From what I'm reading about your method (which is really my only exposure to it so far-interested in learning more!) it sounds like something that requires an ability to put aside a "need" to do things a certain way and in a certain order... which is "OCD"me in a nutshell sadly:embarasse Any tips on getting around this mental block? (I do think the "interactor vs operator" idea has helped me make progress in this area but still have a way to go)(sorry if this sidetracks from the topic)
          Tony Friese, PT
          Vestibular Rehabilitation Competency 2006
          Wausau, WI

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Bas Asselbergs View Post
            David has a BIG capacity for patience: the interviewer is so clearly out of his league that he keeps tossing in the non-sequitur reactions. David has a gift of gently staying, or steering matters back on track, while communicating the science very well.
            I suspect that doctorate in education that he obtained during the last decade has been very useful in that regard.

            What a handy "tool kit" to have gone back for. Learn how to educate by learning all the conceptualized steps and how to apply them. Not just be stuck chasing one another around in the gerbil cage of this profession.
            Diane
            www.dermoneuromodulation.com
            SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
            HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
            Neurotonics PT Teamblog
            Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
            Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
            @PainPhysiosCan
            WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
            @WCPTPTPN
            Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

            @dfjpt
            SomaSimple on Facebook
            @somasimple

            "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

            “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

            “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

            "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

            "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

            Comment


            • #7
              interesting

              Especially after 19 minutes or so . I think there was a post here ages ago on sound is like touch at a distance ? This is what I get from David . His educational interests and understanding of threat based physiology has probably informed his demenaour/communicatin style . He consistently sounds reasonable and non threatening despite having his own agenda and interests . I read a book by a Psychologist on the science of compassion and this is something that I often feel when I hear David --this can only be a good thing if you are trying to understand something complex or challenge existing paradigms.
              Tony have you read Jill Bolt Taylors My Stroke of Insight on her experience of laterality defecit?

              ian

              Comment


              • #8
                @ Ian,

                No, I'm not familiar with that title; I'll have to check it out! Thanks!


                Edit: after checking out her book on Amazon, I think I remember seeing a video last year of Ms Taylor giving a talk about her experience...her book is definitely now on my "to get" list!
                Last edited by tonyf315; 09-03-2011, 03:52 PM.
                Tony Friese, PT
                Vestibular Rehabilitation Competency 2006
                Wausau, WI

                Comment


                • #9
                  OK I'm listening to the interview right now and I had to LOL at this:

                  David Butler: "are you avoiding the brain in this discussion???" that was great! :clap2:
                  Tony Friese, PT
                  Vestibular Rehabilitation Competency 2006
                  Wausau, WI

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I was annoyed by the inane interviewer as well. Gee..great stuff....!

                    If it had been Margaret Throsby (the presenter who interviewed Lorimer Mososley) there would have been a difference. She extrapolates what the interviewee says, instead of just asking another question.

                    I agree that the differentiation between acute and chronic pain is very tenuous but one that is firmly entrenched. Pain is pain with a change in the brain after a few months or less.

                    Nari

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Having sat and listened to David Butler on several occasions, not only in the context of courses but also at the NOI conference (and dinner), I have found him a charismatic and entertaining,humble educator who, as noted above, oozes compassion for those in pain and simutaneously passion for the very subject of pain. I can imagine his patients just love his warm gracious concern whcih alone must bring such reassurance that they are not unreachable in their pain.

                      I think that without the discovery of this board and the NOI MOTN course, where I heard David first, I don't think that I personally would be choosing to continue to practice as a physio. In short the man engenders inspiration.

                      regards
                      ANdy

                      interesting collection of interveiws on that site
                      "Here is Edward Bear coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head behind Christopher Robin. It is, as far as he knows, the only way of coming downstairs, but sometimes he feels that there is another way, if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it." A.A. Milne

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Early today I invited the site owner here to see how much we've appreciated the interview.

                        I'd love to do one myself.
                        Barrett L. Dorko

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Barret,
                          Thanks for the invitation, and thank you for helping spread the word about the interview.

                          I hope that people can forgive my lousy interviewing skills and inadequacies in this subject. This is just a hobby for me, I am no way claiming to be a professional interviewer or an expert.

                          Feel free to mute me when ever I talk and just listen to David.

                          The truth is I've been out of my league in all the interviews I've done so far, whether it is talking Manual Therapy with Brian Mulligan, Stanley Paris or Tim Flynn; or ACL injuries with Tim Hewett; or Rehabbing the Spine with Stuart McGill or Gwendolen Jull.

                          That is kind of the point of the site and the interviews, an average PT getting to chat with some of the giants in our profession.

                          Anyway I hope people got something out of the interview and I invite you to check out the others.

                          Cheers,
                          Sasha

                          http://www.PhysicalTherapyContinuingEducation.Org

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Welcome to SomaSimple, Sasha. I think it's great that an (other) "average" PT is taking on interviewing. Good! :clap2: (Rod has done some podcasting.)

                            No way should you be "muted" - it's a conversation.

                            And now, not only do you know more about Butler, where he's coming from, you have enlightened the rest of us, and everyone has been reminded that "brain" is also "nervous system"!
                            So it's all good! :thumbs_up
                            Diane
                            www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                            SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                            HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                            Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                            Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                            Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                            @PainPhysiosCan
                            WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                            @WCPTPTPN
                            Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                            @dfjpt
                            SomaSimple on Facebook
                            @somasimple

                            "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                            “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                            “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                            "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                            "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Sasha,

                              I rarely get a reply to specific invitations such as the one sent you, so thank you for this.

                              Putting the thoughts of people with something to say out there for therapists to easily access is extremely important, and I appreciate your doing this.

                              Rod Henderson, a regular contributor here has done the same thing on a smaller scale and has one example posted I especially like here.

                              I think your interviewing style is fine, and, as I said, approaching the huge and somewhat disturbing topic of brain dominance is daunting. I have hesitated to do so as well.
                              Barrett L. Dorko

                              Comment

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