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  • Punch Potential

    Here’s something I’ve been thinking about for a while:

    Lines that may be used in conversation with other therapists or caregivers that make them want to punch you in the face:

    Qualifications:

    These statements must be defensible, overtly impersonal, clear and simple enough to be understood immediately.

    I’ll start.

    There’s no such thing as a pain generator.

    Your turn.
    Barrett L. Dorko

  • #2
    There’s no such thing as a pain generator
    You mean, other than the brain?

    How about?:

    The influences of non-specific effects in producing positive outcomes are far more significant than we'd like to admit.
    Luke Rickards
    Osteopath

    Comment


    • #3
      How about...?

      No matter how we window-dress it, what we do for a living is elicit placebo effect.

      Correction:
      No matter how we window-dress it, what we do for a living is elicit placebo response.
      Last edited by Diane; 12-07-2009, 06:56 PM. Reason: Add correction
      Diane
      www.dermoneuromodulation.com
      SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
      HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
      Neurotonics PT Teamblog
      Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
      Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
      @PainPhysiosCan
      WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
      @WCPTPTPN
      Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

      @dfjpt
      SomaSimple on Facebook
      @somasimple

      "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

      “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

      “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

      "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

      "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

      Comment


      • #4
        Diane,

        Do you believe that there are no 'specific' effects relevant to the changes you see following your care?
        Luke Rickards
        Osteopath

        Comment


        • #5
          Luke,

          You're right. I didn't mention that punch potential statements are somewhat incomplete. They rather arrogantly presume knowledge of those who hear them that they might not actually have without thinking a bit. This being forced to think is part of their motivation to punch.

          Sorry I didn't make that clear, but I presumed you'd figure that out (ha,ha).

          Now, I agree with what you've said and it doesn't make me want to punch you, mainly because I know stuff about the effects of various approaches. But tell me this: Did you read the rule about "clear and simple"?

          I know, I'm on thin ice - but that's the point of this thread.
          Barrett L. Dorko

          Comment


          • #6
            But tell me this: Did you read the rule about "clear and simple"?
            Yes, I did. Though, like you, I have made a presumption that therapists have sufficient understanding to "figure out" the point. I agree I could be wrong.
            Luke Rickards
            Osteopath

            Comment


            • #7
              Luke,

              You are wrong. Your statement is more likely to generate head scratching than face punching. Some might even think you're "too smart" for them. Maybe getting punched a few times will straighten you out.

              Then again, I've been threatened with punching a lot more and only my size protects me. As I recall, I've a lot more of that than you.

              Remember: Simplifying something generates risk

              I presume you're getting my tone here.
              Last edited by Barrett Dorko; 12-07-2009, 06:04 PM.
              Barrett L. Dorko

              Comment


              • #8
                I presume you're getting my tone here.
                Of course.

                I guess it depends on who you're talking to. I know plenty of therapists who'd scratch their head at "There’s no such thing as a pain generator", but would punch you in the face if you suggested placebo played a significant role in their outcomes. The latter might be seen as more confronting.
                Luke Rickards
                Osteopath

                Comment


                • #9
                  Luke,

                  You're right. I see this thread is getting a lot of traffic. I think the word "punch" did it.

                  Maybe most therapists think that placebo is something given another, and not, as Wall contended, something the patient gives you - if I'm not mistaken.

                  Perhaps; Placebo comes from the patient, not the therapist

                  Really, I don't think that's edgy enough unless said while sneering.

                  Hint: Watch for the unconscious balling of the fist (ideomotion, of course) in order to determine whether or not you're on the right track.
                  Barrett L. Dorko

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Maybe most therapists think that placebo is something given another, and not, as Wall contended, something the patient gives you - if I'm not mistaken.

                    Perhaps; Placebo comes from the patient, not the therapist
                    I went back to my post and corrected it, emphasizing "response" instead of leaving "effect" just sitting there.

                    "Response" is better, because it implies (from a third-person perspective) that a brain took into account some novel input then mounted a response.

                    "Effect" implies (from a third-person perspective) a passive organ passively producing, instead of an active organ actively responding.

                    I'm not sure which is more correct ultimately or at which level.
                    Diane
                    www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                    SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                    HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                    Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                    Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                    Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                    @PainPhysiosCan
                    WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                    @WCPTPTPN
                    Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                    @dfjpt
                    SomaSimple on Facebook
                    @somasimple

                    "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                    “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                    “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                    "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                    "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Luke Rickards View Post
                      Diane,

                      Do you believe that there are no 'specific' effects relevant to the changes you see following your care?
                      Luke, would you care to explain to me why anyone would believe the opposite? Maybe on another thread..
                      Diane
                      www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                      SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                      HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                      Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                      Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                      Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                      @PainPhysiosCan
                      WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                      @WCPTPTPN
                      Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                      @dfjpt
                      SomaSimple on Facebook
                      @somasimple

                      "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                      “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                      “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                      "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                      "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Diane,

                        Well yea, sure, but which statement is more likely to get you punched? Maybe they're equally offensive though both are certainly defensible - after you get up off the floor.
                        Barrett L. Dorko

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
                          Diane,

                          Well yea, sure, but which statement is more likely to get you punched? Maybe they're equally offensive though both are certainly defensible - after you get up off the floor.
                          Sometimes it's good to be built close to the floor and somewhat rolypoly. Makes it easy to bounce back up and punch someone else in their knee.

                          As far as I am concerned, both are correct, but at different levels of brain.
                          Both will get me punched.
                          Last edited by Diane; 12-07-2009, 07:57 PM. Reason: Add sentence
                          Diane
                          www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                          SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                          HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                          Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                          Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                          Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                          @PainPhysiosCan
                          WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                          @WCPTPTPN
                          Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                          @dfjpt
                          SomaSimple on Facebook
                          @somasimple

                          "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                          “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                          “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                          "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                          "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Therapeutic Ultrasound is worse than a waste of time - it eliminates 10 minutes you could spend doing something useful.
                            OR
                            Therapeutic Ultrasound is useless. Except for the reimbursement part.
                            Jason Silvernail DPT, DSc, FAAOMPT
                            Board-Certified in Orthopedic Physical Therapy
                            Fellowship-Trained in Orthopedic Manual Therapy

                            Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist


                            The views expressed in this entry are those of the author alone and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the US Government.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Jason,

                              Now we're talkin' - truly in the spirit of thread; in your face.

                              Any other modalities we might fit in there? I especially like the stab at reimbursement part.
                              Barrett L. Dorko

                              Comment

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