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  • Manual Magic - a Proposal: Booklet Download

    Manual Magic - a Proposal: Booklet Download
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    Last edited by bernard; 23-04-2009, 01:43 PM. Reason: added last version (2009)
    Diane
    www.dermoneuromodulation.com
    SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
    HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
    Neurotonics PT Teamblog
    Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
    Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
    @PainPhysiosCan
    WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
    @WCPTPTPN
    Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

    @dfjpt
    SomaSimple on Facebook
    @somasimple

    "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

    “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

    “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

    "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

    "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

  • #2
    Well I wish my schedule had not conflicted with the recent course in Halifax...

    I read this booklet (thanks Diane) and although it's great writing...I still find myself with raised eyebrows. I think I get the gist of what he is writing about but I am still left wondering what on earth Barrett is actually "doing" as a clinician. I actually find Barrett a bit of a magician himself because he writes alot( Ive read a fair amount here in search of what he is in fact doing) but the "doing" aspect is never....actually.....there....

    Barrett, you often write about how frustrated you are that the message does not appear to reach the masses. Perhaps less writing and more "meat" would be helpful? Perhaps a manual like Diane's DNM one would stimulate more minds? It would not have to be all encompassing, just some basic guidance to start.

    I can tell you that in the clinic I work at( 8 PT's), I have shown them the DNM manual and many have actually utilized some of the techniques with some success. The result is they have asked if there is a course they could take. That's a start.

    I am sure had I attended, I would be a bit better able to seperate the wheat from the chalf...I hope....

    Comment


    • #3
      proud, I've been to Barrett's workshop, and what he teaches is how to do Nothing. Nothing manual anyway, except touch someone, on the skin, through clothes. So really, why would he bother to make a manual?

      The other stuff in the workshop you can read here for free.
      It really is interesting to attend a workshop, but one is all you'd ever need. Then you'd probably not need any more after that, because you'd spot all the waste of money and start getting pretty picky.
      Diane
      www.dermoneuromodulation.com
      SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
      HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
      Neurotonics PT Teamblog
      Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
      Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
      @PainPhysiosCan
      WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
      @WCPTPTPN
      Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

      @dfjpt
      SomaSimple on Facebook
      @somasimple

      "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

      “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

      “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

      "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

      "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

      Comment


      • #4
        Diane, that's exactly what I was just going to say! Exactly.

        Comment


        • #5
          I've never been to Barrett's workshop but he spent 20 minutes with me and my wife once in an unused conference room at APTA 2005. It was a great 20 minutes and he did exactly what he's said a million times he does. Approaches the patient gently and lets his hands land on them. Neuroscience explains the movement that happens next and what that means about the nature and resolution of the patient's complaint. He also taught a feldenkrais movement awareness exercise and some diaphragmatic breathing. Basically, he did everything he said he does with patients. I didn't get any CEUs or a nifty certificate but it changed forever my understanding of human movement and the use of movement for mechanical pain.

          I find it hard to believe that anyone who actually reads here can say they're not sure what it is he does. It's been said so many times. Why did I think saying it again here would help?
          Jason Silvernail DPT, DSc, FAAOMPT
          Board-Certified in Orthopedic Physical Therapy
          Fellowship-Trained in Orthopedic Manual Therapy

          Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist


          The views expressed in this entry are those of the author alone and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the US Government.

          Comment


          • #6
            OK, I'll add to the conversation about doing Nothing.

            proud, it is important that the therapist does nothing, except a touch or two. It is also important that the therapist knows about the signs of correction and why they are occuring. Any suggestions or advice or interruption by the therapist will stall or prevent the patient's instinctive movement.

            The only difficulty that may arise is the patient often expects and waits for instructions plus guidance. That's how PTs operate, after all, in people's minds. Touch and stand back. The PT needs to be out of the way, even if significant movement does not occur.

            Nari

            Comment


            • #7
              With very few (but significant) exceptions I've not gotten the effectiveness of doing nothing thoughtfully across and I doubt proud that you would become one of the exceptions were you to attend my workshop.

              Still, the presentation itself has regularly been popular with those who appreciate an experienced and talented speaker and who think that if they listen all day and participate in lab that they've done all that is required of them professionally.

              These days I employ Simple Contact in the presence of and very occasionally on therapists who see me every day for weeks. If they express sufficient interest I give them a copy of my course manual and I always invite them here. Absolutely no one has followed up in any fashion I can discern. We all know what the potentially influential group of 16 from St. Augustine has chosen to do in the five months they've been given. It is as if I was never there and we here at Soma Simple didn't exist.

              Maybe I should have given them a course manual without words; just pictures of my hands on another.

              Think that would work?
              Barrett L. Dorko

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
                These days I employ Simple Contact in the presence of and very occasionally on therapists who see me every day for weeks. If they express sufficient interest I give them a copy of my course manual and I always invite them here. Absolutely no one has followed up in any fashion I can discern. We all know what the potentially influential group of 16 from St. Augustine has chosen to do in the five months they've been given. It is as if I was never there and we here at Soma Simple didn't exist.

                Maybe I should have given them a course manual without words; just pictures of my hands on another.

                Think that would work?

                Yep well, my suggestion was just that...a suggestion.

                I gather we all live in areas where for the most part things are governed by majority rule. It is up to the minority to get their message to the masses to change minds.

                All I am saying is that perhaps your message is lost amongst the poetry and prose. PT's especially orthopeadically driven ones, tend to be looking for what works....the science be dammed. Backwards thinking I know but that's the world we live in.

                My suggestion was simple. Lay it out here in case format. Exactly what you do in a session. Why you do it and what you expect etc. Trust me....people read here. Most do not register and certainly most do not post anything. But people read so the audience is here.

                Speaking for about 10-11 PT's I hang out with regularily, they state that they find most of your writings appear like ramblings. Just saying what I've heard. This despite my encouragement to the contrary. As much as you may not like it, PT's generally work backwords:

                1.) What is the technique?

                2) How do I do it?

                3) Does it work?

                4.) And finally...when all above are satisfied....why?

                You are expecting people to proceed from #4( why ie the science).

                All I am suggesting anyway is that from experience....Diane's DNM manual has suceeded in peaking the interest of a group of orthopeadic PT's that I work with. That's a start.

                I like your writing Barrett, but if your intent is to help move the profession forward....I am afraid the mode of transmision is not working well. I suggested an alternative.

                And Jason, thanks by the way for either suggesting A) I do not read or, B) I do read but am to stupid to understand. Thanks for that. Just to be clear....it's neither( at least I and my peers think not...).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi proud,

                  You seem quite frustrated with the responses to your questions, and no doubt you feel you have good reason for this.

                  I certainly understand the desire (or need) for the kind of specific instruction - meat, as you call it - that you are looking for. Unfortunately for most of Barrett's students, and I suppose unfortunately for Barrett also, Simple Contact just can't be taught in such a manner. If Barrett were to tell you where to place your hands, when and for how long, I guarantee you would be less successful with the technique, not more. That doesn't mean that clinical direction of any sort is impossible, it's just that the patient's natural response is the most important determinant in the process of treatment, not what you think you should do.

                  Perhaps this will add to your frustration, but I can only repeat what others have written: that is, this site is already littered with excellent and totally unpoetic descriptions of what Barrett does and why.
                  Last edited by Luke Rickards; 13-04-2009, 03:43 PM.
                  Luke Rickards
                  Osteopath

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    One instruction (how to) that I remember is to touch the skin over areas where a bone is prominent. Since the most prominent bone is the skull, that's where we started.

                    Mary
                    Guess learning is a lifestyle, not a passtime.
                    Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. ~ Isaac Asimov

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by proud View Post
                      And Jason, thanks by the way for either suggesting A) I do not read or, B) I do read but am to stupid to understand. Thanks for that. Just to be clear....it's neither( at least I and my peers think not...).
                      I've suggested neither of those things. Are you sure you applied option A above to my post?

                      I totally agree with Luke that more specifics are unneeded. I think it's pretty clear that excess devotion to specifics has held manipulative therapy back for quite some time. Why follow that paradigm?
                      Jason Silvernail DPT, DSc, FAAOMPT
                      Board-Certified in Orthopedic Physical Therapy
                      Fellowship-Trained in Orthopedic Manual Therapy

                      Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist


                      The views expressed in this entry are those of the author alone and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the US Government.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Proud,

                        I think where the frustration occurs is that we've been ruined to a point by our previous education. Most every technique is focused on application, how to "do it" to the person. Simple contact is all about how to allow something from the person. The difference is astounding and tough to change mid-stride. I know.

                        It's not easy, although its simple. It really is but a laying on of hands and then staying out of the way while pointing out indications of that which they seek.
                        Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS

                        Pain Science and Sensibility Podcast
                        Leaps and Bounds Blog
                        My youtube channel

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Jason Silvernail View Post
                          I find it hard to believe that anyone who actually reads here can say they're not sure what it is he does. It's been said so many times. Why did I think saying it again here would help?

                          Jason, I took that as implication that I must not actually read. Sorry if I read that wrong....

                          Frustrated? Yes, you could say that. It makes very little sense to me that a) it appears posters here would seemingly rather not direct an inquiring mind about simple contact; and then B) complain that the massess don't seem to care about what Barrett is teaching. Well...I am the masses and one that actually cares to inquire.

                          I was merely suggesting an alternative mode to transmit the information. Something less than 17 pages with obscure references to various poets and philosphers. Something more specific. I mean, I assume Barrett is doing something no matter how subtle it is.

                          I have looked through the site( a fair amount of time but certainly not exaustive) and I just cannot "get" what Barrett does in the clinic. Sorry. That's not meant to be argumentative. But as I have always been...if I don't "get" something.....I ask straight up.

                          That kind of behavior got me in all kinds of trouble while taking my advanced orthopeadic manual therapy courses....I'm pretty sure a couple of instructors never want to see me again. But I was right all along( perhaps they knew it?).....

                          Ahhh, should have taken the course....
                          Last edited by proud; 14-04-2009, 01:51 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Don't worry proud, I was one of those who didn't believe that there was Nothing to it until after I attended an actual workshop and became convinced I'd not need to attend any others as long as I lived.

                            Well, not quite true - after Barrett's I went to Shacklock's, which I was already enrolled in, and was interesting. But haven't been on one since. Barrett's was in Sept 05, and Shacklock's was shortly thereafter in November '05. I'd been enrolled for nearly a year by then.
                            Diane
                            www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                            SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                            HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                            Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                            Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                            Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                            @PainPhysiosCan
                            WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                            @WCPTPTPN
                            Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                            @dfjpt
                            SomaSimple on Facebook
                            @somasimple

                            "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                            “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                            “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                            "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                            "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It's okay that you weren't in Nova Scotia proud. The people actually in attendance didn't seem to get it either.

                              What I'm working on now is an emphasis on the presentation itself. I honestly think I can get the ideas across with greater clarity and "stickyness' if I take the advice of those who know how to do that.
                              Barrett L. Dorko

                              Comment

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