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  • #16
    Luke, you likely already saw this one: An Analysis of the Ideomotor Principle and TOTE It compares TOTE with "IMP" (the ideomotor principle).

    The ideomotor principle (IMP), which was proposed multiple times during the 19th century [12, 19], hypothesizes a bidirectional action-effect linkage in which the desired (perceptual) effect triggers the execution of the action that previously caused that effect. The test operate test exit (TOTE) model of cybernetics [24] proposes goal-oriented action control.
    In the ideomotor view, in a sense, causality, as present in the real world, is reversed in the inner world. A mental representation of the intended effect of an action is the cause of the action: here it is not the action that produces the effect, but the effect that produces the action. [25, par. 21.5] describes an “automatic mechanism” realizing this principle (see Fig 1): when the features of, say, an
    apple are endogenously activated, an automatic mechanism is oriented toward (seeing or grasping) apples teleonomically.
    I find the writing easier to grasp than Prinz's.. although it still seems pretty elusive to me.
    Diane
    www.dermoneuromodulation.com
    SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
    HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
    Neurotonics PT Teamblog
    Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
    Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
    @PainPhysiosCan
    WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
    @WCPTPTPN
    Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

    @dfjpt
    SomaSimple on Facebook
    @somasimple

    "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

    “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

    “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

    "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

    "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

    Comment


    • #17
      A lot of stuff out there is linking ideomotion with mirror neurons.
      Diane
      www.dermoneuromodulation.com
      SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
      HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
      Neurotonics PT Teamblog
      Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
      Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
      @PainPhysiosCan
      WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
      @WCPTPTPN
      Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

      @dfjpt
      SomaSimple on Facebook
      @somasimple

      "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

      “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

      “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

      "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

      "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

      Comment


      • #18
        Yes, I've seen that one.
        Luke Rickards
        Osteopath

        Comment


        • #19
          I wrote a blogpost this morning on the Keller/Prinz paper, Differences Between Intention-Based and Stimulus-Based Actions.

          My thinking is still awfully convoluted I'm afraid, but I'm (dimly) starting to see how something as wafty and non-material as an "idea" can take on an endogenous "reality" as firm as anything exogenous, and could become an inner "stimulus" sufficient to build a new movement pattern around. I think. I mean, if you are going to use illusion-producing methods like mirrors (visual) or skin stretch (kinesthetic) to help the motor system hook into a new way to produce less painful output, one might as easily just ask the patient to create their own "idea" of that, to look at an illusion reflected within another illusion reflected in an illusory rear-view mirror, then drive the vehicle (body) carefully out of the ditch it has become stuck in. Just bypass the whole debate over free will and whether it exists or doesn't. Our profession has always supposed to have been about returning that illusion to the patient, whether it exists or not (the current name for "free will" is "locus of control" as I recall).

          I must admit to having struggled with this for a good long time. I think ideomotor treatment is a whole order of magnitude past where pain science is currently at, and progress for PT (in all aspects of neuroscience) slowed by philosophical impasses too big to even imagine, but I think they'll be "sublated" in time. If this is beyond where pain science is, then it's way beyond where most of the profession is, for pain science even in its current nascent state is way beyond where most of it still is, along with most of its mesodermally bogged down members.
          Diane
          www.dermoneuromodulation.com
          SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
          HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
          Neurotonics PT Teamblog
          Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
          Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
          @PainPhysiosCan
          WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
          @WCPTPTPN
          Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

          @dfjpt
          SomaSimple on Facebook
          @somasimple

          "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

          “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

          “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

          "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

          "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

          Comment


          • #20
            Could you elaborate on how much and what kind of information regarding the method (simple contact) the subject was given prior to agreeing to participate?
            Hi Anders,

            Sam tells me the following info was discussed regarding the treatment-
            Discussion of ideomotion as an expression of instinctive motor response to various stimulii, including pain.
            Social pressures to suppress authentic movement expression and some of the possible physiological results.
            The nature of the manual technique that would be used.
            Possible/Likely perceptions during the treatment.
            Luke Rickards
            Osteopath

            Comment


            • #21
              Is there any research on ideomotor activity and its relevance to PT for patients with low back pain?

              Comment


              • #22
                Hi there,

                Not yet. Although there is a small study currently underway in New Zealand.
                Luke Rickards
                Osteopath

                Comment


                • #23
                  I'm probably hopping on the wrong thread, but I thought this should go with ideomotor movement, for sure. I think it's a pretty good example. I attached it to the facebook page too.

                  Moving Through Time: Thinking of the Past or Future Causes Us to Sway Backward or Forward.
                  Diane
                  www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                  SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                  HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                  Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                  Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                  Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                  @PainPhysiosCan
                  WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                  @WCPTPTPN
                  Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                  @dfjpt
                  SomaSimple on Facebook
                  @somasimple

                  "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                  “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                  “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                  "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                  "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I love this.

                    Potentially,you could get get a class to feel this without telling them it's ideomotion first. Maybe they can see it in others.

                    I think it also displays the power that context has upon our behavior, even the context in our own heads. Perhaps I should say "the context generated by our own brains irrespective of our physical surroundings."

                    Thanks Diane.
                    Barrett L. Dorko

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      After I read the last few posts on this thread I caught myself looking to the right as I reflected on what I had just read and then ended up looking left as I thought how I would respond. Upon further reflection, I am pretty sure I do this quite consistently depending on if I am reflecting or projecting. Interesting. thanks.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        A yin-yanger came on this topic on facebook and we had quite a long chat. I think maybe he won't want to be my facebook friend now.

                        Too bad, he seemed nice. But I'm dead. So... [/eyesrollup]
                        Diane
                        www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                        SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                        HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                        Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                        Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                        Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                        @PainPhysiosCan
                        WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                        @WCPTPTPN
                        Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                        @dfjpt
                        SomaSimple on Facebook
                        @somasimple

                        "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                        “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                        “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                        "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                        "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Here is Natalie Angier's NYT article about ideomotor movement.

                          Abstract Thoughts? The Body Takes Them Literally
                          Diane
                          www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                          SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                          HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                          Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                          Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                          Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                          @PainPhysiosCan
                          WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                          @WCPTPTPN
                          Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                          @dfjpt
                          SomaSimple on Facebook
                          @somasimple

                          "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                          “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                          “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                          "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                          "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                          Comment

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