Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Power of Dissonance

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    Wow. You can take the PTs out of the high school but you can't take the high school out of the PTs. :thumbs_do
    Diane
    www.dermoneuromodulation.com
    SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
    HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
    Neurotonics PT Teamblog
    Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
    Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
    @PainPhysiosCan
    WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
    @WCPTPTPN
    Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

    @dfjpt
    SomaSimple on Facebook
    @somasimple

    "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

    “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

    “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

    "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

    "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

    Comment


    • #92
      I have always understood that our real challenges lie with our peers.

      From the relatively short period of time that I spent attempting to swing other PTs away from the mesodermal perspective into the neuroscience paddock, I decided that it was far too big a leap for a solo effort on my part.
      Even when they said: 'That's very interesting' and left it at that, I knew that it was seen by them as an alternative to 'normal' practice, and therefore not 'kosher'. One PT even said that ideomotive movement would be restricted to only a few patients, and it wasn't worthwhile. I translated that as only for gullible patients who believe anything.

      Barrett, none so blind as cannot see; and, along Diane's line of thought, too many are still in high school listening to others and not themselves.

      Nari

      Comment


      • #93
        One of the ideas I carry around in my head is that I’m a pretty good public speaker. What I have to say is often unique, interesting, compelling, occasionally outrageous and not uncommonly funny. I make it clear that what I have to say about human functioning and therapeutic intervention is supported by the best evidence available. Normally, this verbal approach results in an attentive class full of people engaged, taking notes and waiting for whatever comes next.

        This reaction simply confirms my idea but yesterday’s experience planted another and dissonance theory insists that I deal with it. I could distort the evidence, ignore what’s right before me, kill the messenger or otherwise aggressively attack personally the people who made it clear I’m not what I think I am.

        Look at posts #15 and 16 in this thread to find what Tavris and Aronson suggest be done when dissonance rules so that self-justification doesn’t mutate into rage or dismissive actions or sarcasm. Especially this:

        Once we understand how and when we need to reduce dissonance, we can become more vigilant about the process and often nip it in the bud. By looking at our actions critically and dispassionately, as if we were observing someone else, we stand a chance of breaking out of the cycle of action followed by self-justification, followed by more committed action.

        At the moment I’m convinced I didn’t do what I might have in the past. Instead, I “wrote through it,” as I say, and, as usual, the writing itself has informed me, led closer to honesty and set the stage for change in the direction I hope to go.
        Barrett L. Dorko

        Comment


        • #94
          Ending soon?

          It seems that my workshop has evolved slowly but steadily in a direction that I hadn’t anticipated, and while the clarity of my speech has inevitably improved - the dissonance it produces has increased as well. So, while my confidence in the message has increased the discomfort in the room has risen. Unless I find a way of helping the students through this I’m going to be one dead messenger.

          After 258 attempts in 3 years to introduce some basic neuroscience into the thinking employed by manual therapists I’m beginning to wonder whether or not this is just too dangerous a job. Without question, the overall response is very positive if not enduring, but this information is hard to place in front of thousands without eliciting in a few the sort of anger Edison felt toward Tesla. (See post #7)

          I rather doubt that the angry ones will prove quieter or less influential than those who have been moved to change, to study and to handle patients gently and more thoughtfully. They will do what they must to reduce the dissonance, and we may have to find another way besides the one I’m engaged in to move manual care into the 21st century.
          Barrett L. Dorko

          Comment


          • #95
            I can respond better to post #93 than I can to #94. I think you need to keep in mind some form of Lincoln's statement about pleasing some of the people all the time and all the people some of the time, but you can't please all the people, all the time. Maybe you might have to change "please" to "piss off".

            I know that you don't place much store in personality theories, particularly Myers-Briggs, and I certainly understand the lack of scientific qualifications that it has, but I find it useful to understand some things. I've never been very good at understanding social interactions, I suspect that since you have Asperger's Syndrome and from your own statements that you aren't either. One thing that I have commented on before is the style of your teaching and writings and the audience who it will appeal to. I think the people on Somasimple are introspective, like abstraction and conceptual thinking, and are uncomfortable with closed-ended processes. The way you write and teach is refreshing to us, but you seem to expect others to approach things the same way, this is not the way the majority of the world does so. You won't find how walking a dog, cognitive dissonance, or magical tricks are all related and all pertinent to the practice of Physical Therapy in Rehabedge or NOI. In school, I always started off learning new stuff slowly, eventually learning enough to see the theory or concept, and then learning faster or better than most others. That is because schools teach the way most people learn, by learning discrete bits of information and then piecing it together, while my preferred (and I think most of the regulars on this list) method of learning is to be given an overview, the concept, first and add the details later. You talk about this in the thread about abductive reasoining, but I don't think you realize how strong the difference in learning styles is or how uncommon my (I say mine but I mean our) learning style is. I don't know if you will ever be able to teach or present your material so that the majority get it. You may have to accept that the fruition of your life's work will not come from you, but from one, or several, of those you have influenced that also have the ability to communicate this in a way that is accessible to everyone.

            My wife and I are designing a house together. It is amazing to me to talk through how we each come to our decisions. We often reach the same conclusion, but in talking it through we both become frustrated because we both "do it backwards". Her thought processes seem to be just plain backwards and I have no idea how she can think that way, and she thinks the same way about me. Of course, I'm right, but I've learned that her way is in the majority. I see this same dynamic sometimes in criticisms of others research on this list,sometimes almost the same words "They are going about it backwards".


            I think that the hardest thing about applying the theory of cognitive dissonance is learning to apply it to ourselves, and you are doing that. I think as a teacher, the next step is learning how to get around it. You can't beat it down with logic and evidence, this just creates greater anxiety, perhaps some type of cognitive dissonance judo is in order. Isn't that the lesson of Socratic questioning, to ask questions that will bring the student to an understanding themselves that they would never accept coming from someone else? I'll let you know soon as I got that figured out.

            As far as those on the back row you describe, well, none of this explains plain rudeness, but teaching manners isn't in your job description.

            Comment


            • #96
              Hemlock Looms

              Randy,

              I spent yesterday thinking of Socrates and then read your post first thing this morning. I’m not kidding.

              Truth springs from arguments amongst friends.

              David Hume, Scottish philosopher, economist and historian.

              In science, if you don’t work hard enough to prove yourself wrong, your friends will gleefully take up the slack. Proving the work of others to be false is virtually a sacred rite.

              From Captured by Aliens by Joel Achenbach

              Discussions aren’t religious experiences, and changing one’s mind shouldn’t be akin to a conversion. Rather, we need to digest the arguments advanced against our point of view, think of possible counter-arguments, try the latter out on different people, read some more about the issue at hand. Only then we can feel justified in changing our opinion, rather then simply be bullied into submission.

              Massimo Pigliucci in his column Rationally Speaking

              First thing; how many reading this will actually click on the links provided to find out who the heck Massimo Pigliucci actually is?

              Pigliucci goes on to say, “Socrates often explains that his role is that of a philosophical midwife, not to tell people what the truth is, but rather to help them get out the truths that are already inside them (and) Today educators world-wide still think of the “Socratic method” as the best way to teach: not by lecturing students, but by engaging them in a discussion that leads the students to a better understanding of the matter at hand.”

              I’d agree, but the problem in today’s therapy culture seems to be that one side often has little or no argument to make. Without that, some choose to feel "bullied" in order to reduce the dissonance. At his specific request I spent twenty minutes of my lunch hour helping the wife of one of the guys in the back row with her chronic pain (she’s also a therapist), leading him through each step of the evaluative process I employ and teach, eliciting ideomotion and then demonstrating obvious improvement. He then angrily asked how that was supposed to help her.

              I speak plainly and clearly. I ask questions that have been dealt with repeatedly in the class to make sure I’ve conveyed the importance of certain information (the origin of pain, for instance) and I am clearly committed to advancing our profession’s understanding and practice. I am kind and patient. I am friendly and cordial. I remember names.

              Sometimes this isn’t enough, I know.
              Last edited by Barrett Dorko; 09-09-2007, 04:04 PM.
              Barrett L. Dorko

              Comment


              • #97
                Barrett,

                I think under the dissonance lies vulnerablity. For myself, I find it a challenge feeling comfortable in vulnerability. I imagine your audience does too having little or no argument to stand upon.

                Chance

                Comment


                • #98
                  Chase,

                  I think you’re right, vulnerability is a complex and often terrifying state. I like this web site for its insight regarding the question, “How does the avoidance of vulnerability manifest itself?”

                  I see myself here. Not entirely, but some of it.
                  Barrett L. Dorko

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Hi Barrett,

                    He then angrily asked how that was supposed to help her.
                    Of course the angry part is often a bad prognostic indicator but I do welcome that question as an invitation to start to tell them what I know about pain. Unfortunately the timing of this person's question sounds like he asked right after he just got done listening to the answer for a few hours.

                    The question of doom I've heard in the clinic (luckily only twice so far) is "why do I need to know any of this?" People can keep their "easy" button, I want a "reset" button.
                    "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

                    Comment


                    • Barrett,

                      My name is Chancellor. Chance works too.

                      Comment


                      • I found a review of the book on Am. Scientist. Thought I'd add it to the thread.
                        Diane
                        www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                        SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                        HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                        Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                        Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                        Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                        @PainPhysiosCan
                        WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                        @WCPTPTPN
                        Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                        @dfjpt
                        SomaSimple on Facebook
                        @somasimple

                        "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                        “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                        “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                        "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                        "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                        Comment


                        • Thanks Diane.

                          Not bad, but it failed to emphasize the instinctive reaction in dissonance theory, which, when combined with what memetics has taught us, is to remain where we are intellectually, especially if our current memes provide us comfort and a steady income.

                          Commonly, people show up at my course unhappy with their results and confused about the theory behind their practice, should they happen to have one. Often they don't.

                          They assume that "adding another tool' to their bag of tricks will be what they get. Who could blame them? That's all that's normally offered.

                          But I make it clear that rational theory will not allow for too many tools for the same problem, and, worse yet, they're going to have to abandon some of the ones they bring to class if they are to progress as caregivers for the abnormal neurodynamic.

                          They cannot help but respond with resistance, at least for a little while.
                          Barrett L. Dorko

                          Comment


                          • An Update:

                            The introduction of dissonance theory to the classes continues to reduce the intellectual violence of their response to the new ideas and discoveries I offer, and I think I'm in an ideal position to judge this since I'm usually the one they grow angry with if they can't just distort the evidence in front of them.

                            I'm increasingly aware of how to time this information and therefore when to offer the evidence I know will begin the process. Like most of this teaching stuff, repetition is the only thing that gets you where you want to go.
                            Barrett L. Dorko

                            Comment


                            • The Statuesque Response

                              There's this too.

                              Today I ran into something I've seen before but hadn't remembered for some reason.

                              One way that therapists (or people in general) control the amount of dissonance they feel is to avoid receiving new information of any sort, which, of course, isn't news.

                              But if this therapist finds themselves in a space (like a classroom with me in front) where this information is unavoidable, they will often begin to behave in a fashion that they hope will inhibit my speech and/or make sure that I know that they will only be noticed on their own terms. That is to say that though making comments when they want to is common, they will not respond to any question the "dissonance carrier" asks. In response they become rigid, disapproving and angry in a way that they hope will make communication a one way street. When I ask a question, they become a statue and make me beg for a response. And boy, isn't this fun for me!

                              Anyway, I've got it today, and I've been through this dance before. I need to remember that this isn't a contest, it's just a workshop, and my job is clear: I must keep my wits about me, remember my own dissonant feelings and monitor my reaction.

                              I also have to see to it that this attitude doesn't infect the rest of the class.
                              Barrett L. Dorko

                              Comment


                              • It's a dominance gesture. It's hard to do from a sitting position.
                                Diane
                                www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                                SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                                HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                                Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                                Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                                Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                                @PainPhysiosCan
                                WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                                @WCPTPTPN
                                Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                                @dfjpt
                                SomaSimple on Facebook
                                @somasimple

                                "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                                “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                                “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                                "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                                "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X