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Postural Restoration

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  • #91
    Due to a rotated sphenoid bone the jugular foramen becomes more closed on one side which will affect the Vagus, Spinal Accessory and glossopharyngeal nerves (let me know if you need a recap on the function of these nerves).
    Spheniod position will affect vascular flow to the cranium, thermo regulation and hormone balance.
    Torsion of the cranium is also going to affect the position of and space for the brain.
    Hi Olly,
    How does one maintain the correct posture of the cranial bones? I assume this doesn't have much to do with sitting up straight.
    Last edited by Luke Rickards; 13-06-2006, 01:08 AM.
    Luke Rickards


    • #92
      While I'm waiting for the first series of answers (and i realize I am asking a lot):
      "Due to a rotated sphenoid bone the jugular foramen becomes more closed on one side which will affect the Vagus, Spinal Accessory and glossopharyngeal nerves (let me know if you need a recap on the function of these nerves)."
      Thank you, no, a recap is not necessary. Having taken craniosacral techniques and having been exposed to the related theory, how do YOU (or postural restoration) propose to
      a) measure the rotation;
      b) measure the opening of the jugular foramen;
      c) and measure the direct effect of the sphenoid position on these nerves?

      See, my problem is with the supposition of the sphenoid rotation - a theory, without any basis of testability and reliability. Second, the assumption that the supposed rotation affects the jugular foramen. And then, the contention that somehow this all adds up to specific nerve irritation....

      I am afraid I am not going to get any acceptable answers, and at the risk of sounding condescending: been there - done that. As you can see from my history, I have heard and seen many of these "approaches" before and have developed a - for me healthy - dose of scepticism.....And the related alarm bells are making lots of noise.
      Bas out.
      Last edited by Bas Asselbergs; 12-06-2006, 11:44 PM.
      We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

      I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
      Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

      Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

      We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack


      • #93
        Any takers for a new experiment?

        Hey all (but mostly Luke and other "poppers", maybe Jon, since you were there)

        I just sat through an inservice at work today about a "Cuboid Whip" (basically a manipulation) for limited supination and pain in the foot. Apparently it gets the runner back on track and rarely, if ever, will they suffer the ROM limitations again.

        It got me thinking, maybe a displaced sphenoid would benefit from a "Sphenoid Whip".

        Any thoughts?



        • #94
          Author: Kouwenhoven, Jan-Willem M. MD *; Vincken, Koen L. PhD +; Bartels, Lambertus W. PhD +; Castelein, Rene M. MD, PhD *

          Title: Analysis of Preexistent Vertebral Rotation in the Normal Spine.[Miscellaneous Article]
          Source: Spine. 31(13):1467-1472, June 1, 2006.
          Abstract: A newly developed CT measurement method was used to investigate axial rotation from T2 to L5 in the normal, nonscoliotic spine.

          Objectives. To identify a preexistent rotational pattern in the normal, nonscoliotic spine.

          Summary of Background Data. The data available on axial rotation measurements in the normal spine are scant and limited to only a few vertebrae. Systematic analysis of the thoracic and lumbar vertebrae of the normal spine, based on computed tomography has, to our knowledge, not been performed.

          Methods. CT scans of the thorax and abdomen of 50 persons without clinical or radiologic evidence of scoliosis were used to measure vertebral axial rotation from T2 to L5 with a newly developed semiautomatic computerized method.

          Results. The results of the present study showed a predominant rotation to the left of the high thoracic vertebrae, and to the right of the mid and lower thoracic vertebrae in the normal, nonscoliotic spine, which differed significantly from an equal right-left distribution. This rotational pattern is present in both males and females.

          Conclusion. The normal, nonscoliotic spine demonstrates a preexistent pattern of vertebral rotation that corresponds to what is seen in the most prevalent types of thoracic idiopathic scoliosis.
          "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris


          • #95
            I'm not so sure that the shape of the cranium does influence the abilities of the brain. Many chidren do not have a perfect cranium, they do not turn to be complete idiots.

            Looking for a perfect posture leads to a lot of frustration. Perhaps look for balance through the body ?

            On the scoliosis : do you think that PT is better than "natural" exercise (sport,...) on its development ?
            Last edited by aléa; 12-06-2006, 11:34 PM.


            • #96

              What would "balance" look like? What is it you're suggesting needs to be "balanced" and in what way? How is "balance" different from symmetry?


              Like Bas, I don't need "a recap" on the function of any nerves. Thanks for asking though. Also like Bas I'm waiting to hear how you eval and change these sturctures.
              Barrett L. Dorko


              • #97

                Re: the Spheniod Whip. I don't know if I'm unique here but I've never considered a rapid blow to the head as an appropriate treatment for any painful condition.

                OK, perhaps the thought has crossed my mind a few times, but it was to get me out of misery.

                Luke Rickards


                • #98

                  How is PRI different then than Janda's, Sahrmann's, Egoscue's and other postural philosophies? I didn't see anything you wrote that struck me as different except the terminology.

                  I guess I'm still also waiting for the why's. It seems like you are putting the cart before the horse.

                  OLLY:Working hard to breathe due to a twisted diaphragm is going to increase the sympathetic action of our nervous system.

                  RD: What is causing the twisted diaphragm, uneven muscular tension leading to skeletal adjustment? Isn't this neurological in origin?
                  Ollyue to pelvic floor tone we are at increased risk of piriformis syndrome.

                  RD: Why is there increased pelvic floor tone? Same question

                  Olly: Due to accessory muscle of respiration activity we are at increased risk of TOS.

                  RD: Hmmm. Ok, let's accept that. Same questions.

                  Olly: Due to a rotated sphenoid bone the jugular foramen becomes more closed on one side which will affect the Vagus, Spinal Accessory and glossopharyngeal nerves (let me know if you need a recap on the function of these nerves).
                  Spheniod position will affect vascular flow to the cranium, thermo regulation and hormone balance.

                  RD: Was the recap thing a joke, an insult or did you really thing you are going to come to forum dedicated to things neurological and lecture on basic nerve function? How do you know the rotated sphenoid is doing any of these things, and same questions as before.

                  Olly:Torsion of the cranium is also going to affect the position of and space for the brain.

                  RD: ? I suppose this is related to maintaining the visual horizon, but do you really think you are going to affect the "torsion of the cranium", how much torsion does the cranium allow? That would seem to be an extremely long process if it happens.

                  Olly:Alignment is also going to have an impact on the neural foramina of the spine.

                  RD: That seems plausible but if there are no neurological signs suggesting then why would you assume it? If there are neurological signs suggesting it, why would assymmetry be the prime suspect?

                  In short, none of the reasons why these things happen is explained or why they don't correct themselves.


                  • #99
                    symetry is static. I'm not looking for symetry.
                    I'm looking for "muscle balance" (here, i'll get a kick), in their tensions at rest, and more important for coordination when moving. That's different from looking for good posture.


                    • ale'a,

                      It sounds like you're looking for normal, apporpriate and well-coordinated muscular function, both at rest and during activity.

                      Aren't we all?
                      Barrett L. Dorko


                      • I hope so, but there is a difference between looking for function and looking for posture.


                        • Aléa,

                          As human and PTs, we are trained to see symmetry and harmonious movements. It taste "good" to our neurons but there is no direct relation between posture and pain. The primer may enhance the second but we do not know if it creates it.

                          Posture is a snapshot of a living people. A snapshot doesn't tell you anything about the movement content.
                          Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
                          We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

                          Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
                          If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein


                          • I don't think this conversation is going to progress in terms of concordance of explaining the underpinnings of our therapeutic approaches. As a reminder, this is what the invitation was all about in the first place, versus telling us what is already on the website. Here's the original questions asked in the first post.

                            1)Who doesn’t display most of what he says to the extent that the word “usually” would apply? I've got most of this; why don't I hurt? As has been pointed out on this site in other threads, asymmetry is the norm, not the problem.

                            2)Just how exactly does this therapist justify his conclusions about function and consequent methods of practice? Is it pure empiricism? Is there evidence (and I mean good evidence) to support this? Why isn’t the verifying literature cited along with the conclusions? If it’s only available at his courses, why should I have to pay for such a thing?

                            I presume that these courses are increasingly popular and my fascination with this revolves around our therapeutic community’s willingness to unhesitatingly accept what is proposed there. Is it the word “posture” that draws them?
                            Upon reflection, there should have been no confusion regarding the tenor of the thread. I don't think what appears on the website or the very little offered by those at least making an attempt to represent PRI justifies the consequent method of practice, assuming I understand what that exactly is. In actuality I'm left unsure of what the consequent method of practice entails. I get that they do some diaphragmatic breathing (in an ultra fine grained method that also invites critical analysis) but what else goes on in treatment (regardless of how it is explained)? Is there any concordance at this level with other approaches?
                            "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris


                            • I see that this thread is about to drop off the top of the front page and I'd like to see it remain there for another day at least. Over 1600 views is meaningful, and the intense interest this subject has exposed, I assume, extends beyond the potential for personal conflict and comment that it might produce. I know some viewers are hoping for more of that.

                              I'd have to assume as well that the PRI practitioners out there have had their eyes on this and their chance to participate is passing by so I'd like to encourage them once again to answer some of the questions that have been quite respectfully asked regarding their theory. I know there are a number of you out there though Ron Hruska himself has made it clear he doesn't want to say anything at this time. Please remember that the questions are asked respectfully but that your answers might make some of us howl. There's no fixing that.

                              In 1905 Einstein had his first paper published in a German physics magazine. Of course, what he wrote was pure theory. The writing generated a lot of interest and debate so he rather famously wrote to a fellow physicist, "I am very happy to see that our colleagues are looking carefully at my theories - even if it is in hopes of destroying them."

                              I tell every class this story in hopes that they will come to understand that a scientist never mistakes a theory for their own self and that a criticism of one is never a criticism of the other. Can't therapeutic theory be like that? If a therapist cannot tolerate an attack upon their thinking can they be described as a scientist? Don't our patients deserve science behind their care?
                              Last edited by Barrett Dorko; 14-06-2006, 02:23 PM.
                              Barrett L. Dorko


                              • It's Sioux Falls South Dakota, Omaha Nebraska and Des Moines Iowa for me this week - otherwise known as "PRI Country." I've driven over 300 miles now through three states and let me tell you, they all look pretty much the same.

                                Maybe the amazing symmetry of the surrounding landscape forms the subtext of PRI's theory. Maybe the straight rows of, well, whatever it is they grow around here, has had some sort of mesmerizing effect on the practitioners of this method and thus has driven them to appreciate if not actually desire to see the same perfect line in their patients. I'm just speculating here, and without any of the PRI practitioners to talk to I'll just have to conclude I'm right - though I doubt it.

                                I can't help but think of Tomas More's line near the end of that great flick A Man for All Seasons: "The dictum of the law is 'Quin tace con secere.' Translation: "silence gives consent."

                                Today a woman familiar with Ron Hruska's strong and forthright defense of his work over the years expressed real surprise at his decision not to join us here.

                                All I could do was shrug my shoulders.
                                Barrett L. Dorko