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  • #46
    Olly,

    (Sorry to have spelled your name wrong above ~ wasn't any attempt at humor there, just spaciness)

    So, a few questions come to mind directly relating to what you said above : Would you expect the above scenario to necessarily or typically cause pain? , What type of pain would it tend to cause? Why would it cause pain (in nervous system terms)? And are there any studies yet indicating that this type of assymetry causes pain ?

    In case it's of import/of interest, I am right handed and my right shoulder is higher, by the way, but I have no back or torso pain unless i sit for long static hours at the computer for days, or do hip hyperextension exercises. I'm 40

    Dana
    Last edited by stregapez; 09-06-2006, 04:12 AM.

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    • #47
      Thanks for your first round of answers Olly. I have more questions, but I'll get in line behind others, let you have time to answer their questions.
      Diane
      www.dermoneuromodulation.com
      SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
      HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
      Neurotonics PT Teamblog
      Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
      Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
      @PainPhysiosCan
      WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
      @WCPTPTPN
      Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

      @dfjpt
      SomaSimple on Facebook
      @somasimple

      "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

      “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

      “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

      "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

      "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

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      • #48
        How instant is instant? Seconds?A few minutes?

        The complexity of reasoning and special names for vague areas of the body is a bit of a worry. I don't think one can make up new names without a good deal of backing from the scientific community.

        One should not have to take a course in order to understand the basic theory behind how a muscle group behaves under stress, normal comfortable positions and in sport.

        Can you elaborate on your views on how the brain and CNS fits into what you have said so far? Much appreciated.

        Nari

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        • #49
          Let's assume
          assuming everything I have said is correct
          Well, that's just the problem. How does it work if we don't assume this?

          Luke
          Luke Rickards
          Osteopath

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          • #50
            Olly, I'm getting the sense that your minute or two might be up.
            "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

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            • #51
              Humour Break!

              Rogue Science
              Eric Matheson, PT

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              • #52
                Hi All and Welcome to Olly.

                I'm frustated. I was told that diaphragm, as lungs and many/all things in chest/belly were already asymetrical.

                As Nari, I think that the poor balanced (often pain free) patients are the results of muscle activation/relaxation governed/dictated by brain.

                Your statements tell us that it is possible to have a reverse opportunity? acting on muscles will change the brain?
                Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
                We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

                Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
                If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
                bernard

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                • #53
                  I keep reminding myself of CP patients, who are about as asymmetrical as one can get, with what seems to be very overloaded segments. Yet they are not in pain, apart from various common complaints that fit within the scope of 'usual' complaints such as worn menisci, etc.
                  Asymmetry and pain are not related; the brain does not object to asymmetry.

                  Nari

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                  • #54
                    Check out post #51 in the "Posture and Pain" thread. I think it relates pretty well to this discussion.

                    Where are the rest of the PRI practitioners? Is Olly the only one willing to speak? Why is Hruska himself silent?
                    Last edited by bernard; 09-06-2006, 12:16 PM. Reason: Added link to post #51
                    Barrett L. Dorko

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                    • #55
                      Asymmetry. Assuming most of the population is not ambidextrous, and being a moving bipedal animal, often using vehicles and tools and machines and pencils and mouses (!) with a distinct dominant side - and assuming we do not know when we are dysfunctional, because apparently it doesn't always cause pain or discomfort - we are all going to be eager subjects for postural restoration - FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES. I can't help but see a big flaw in the logic of the whole theory.

                      I do not doubt for a minute, that the actual therapeutic intervention will have success, but I doubt that it has anything to do with the minutae of the techniques, and all to do with the perception and nervous system of the patient receiving the treatment.

                      I have to commend you Olly, on your obvious courage to jump into a thread with such a critical flavour, and on your enthousiasm for the technique. I think the gap between what I have learned to see as "key" to therapy is just too far removed from what you see as the key.

                      I must add that I would have responded very differently 10-15 years ago, when my level of understanding was such that the proposed mechanism underpinning Postural Restoration, would have been very alluring....
                      We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

                      I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
                      Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

                      Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

                      We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack

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                      • #56
                        Bas, you're correct that those on this site often are critical and Olly may not have had an appreciation for this as demonstrated by asking us to make some very large assumptions and to humor him, neither of which are likely to help get across any important points. I agree that those using the approach see results (not unlike those using MFR). I even note that some of the "restoration" techniques are similar to mine (spending some time on diaphragmatic breathing for example) but with a different explanation for why doing such a thing might be important for something like pain.

                        In an earlier post Olly asks what is supposed to be rhetorical question but I'll try to answer it anyway.

                        How can asymmetry not be a problem when it puts uneven loads on joint surfaces and muscles are forced to work asymmetrically and inefficiently?
                        Joints have a certain capacity to handle uneven loads, they always have. In fact, unless there is an asymmetrical force across a joint, it won't move.
                        "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

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                        • #57
                          Jon, well said.
                          Olly, my first reaction to that question was: "Since when is it up to me to prove a negative?" The question is rife with assumptions: "uneven" - measured how exactly? "Inefficiently" - measured how exactly? "Asymmetrically" - measured how exactly? I am saying I do understand the train of thought and the seemingly logical process here, but it does not exactly a process that stands up to Occam's razor, is it?
                          We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

                          I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
                          Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

                          Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

                          We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Jon and Bas,

                            As always, some inciteful and, to me, perfectly appropriate questions. I'm assuming Olly doesn't find this as amusing as he had previously, but you never know about such things.

                            Olly,

                            Write your fellow PRIers and ask them to join us. You've been doing the heavy lifting alone and that's just not fair. I'm sure they've got something to say.
                            Barrett L. Dorko

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                            • #59
                              Barrett, "incite"ful or "insight"ful or both?
                              Diane
                              www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                              SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                              HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                              Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                              Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                              Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                              @PainPhysiosCan
                              WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                              @WCPTPTPN
                              Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                              @dfjpt
                              SomaSimple on Facebook
                              @somasimple

                              "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                              “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                              “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                              "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                              "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Why so smug?

                                Hi all, I find it comical that without ever meeting me Mr Dorko seems to think he knows how I'm taking all of your criticism. I entered this forum believing that it was a site to further knowledge by talking with other therapists about approaches they are using. So far not one of you has asked a qustion in a manner that belies true interest, rather the mood of the group appears very confrontational and eager to put down any approach that you do not understand. Before I start to answer your questions again, I would like to know what you all do, what approaches do you use and just in case I am not familier with your approaches I would appreciate a short synopsis of what you do and why.

                                Some of you have neat little quotes on your replies, so let me share one of my favorites with you all.

                                "Han som tror han er ferdig utlaert er ikke utlaert men ferdig!" Nils Arne Eggen. Roughly translated it means "If you think your learning is finished, you are not learned but finished!"

                                Olly Hall, PT, PRC

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