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  • Diane
    replied
    Barrett, "incite"ful or "insight"ful or both?

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  • Barrett Dorko
    replied
    Jon and Bas,

    As always, some inciteful and, to me, perfectly appropriate questions. I'm assuming Olly doesn't find this as amusing as he had previously, but you never know about such things.

    Olly,

    Write your fellow PRIers and ask them to join us. You've been doing the heavy lifting alone and that's just not fair. I'm sure they've got something to say.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bas Asselbergs
    replied
    Jon, well said.
    Olly, my first reaction to that question was: "Since when is it up to me to prove a negative?" The question is rife with assumptions: "uneven" - measured how exactly? "Inefficiently" - measured how exactly? "Asymmetrically" - measured how exactly? I am saying I do understand the train of thought and the seemingly logical process here, but it does not exactly a process that stands up to Occam's razor, is it?

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  • Jon Newman
    replied
    Bas, you're correct that those on this site often are critical and Olly may not have had an appreciation for this as demonstrated by asking us to make some very large assumptions and to humor him, neither of which are likely to help get across any important points. I agree that those using the approach see results (not unlike those using MFR). I even note that some of the "restoration" techniques are similar to mine (spending some time on diaphragmatic breathing for example) but with a different explanation for why doing such a thing might be important for something like pain.

    In an earlier post Olly asks what is supposed to be rhetorical question but I'll try to answer it anyway.

    How can asymmetry not be a problem when it puts uneven loads on joint surfaces and muscles are forced to work asymmetrically and inefficiently?
    Joints have a certain capacity to handle uneven loads, they always have. In fact, unless there is an asymmetrical force across a joint, it won't move.

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  • Bas Asselbergs
    replied
    Asymmetry. Assuming most of the population is not ambidextrous, and being a moving bipedal animal, often using vehicles and tools and machines and pencils and mouses (!) with a distinct dominant side - and assuming we do not know when we are dysfunctional, because apparently it doesn't always cause pain or discomfort - we are all going to be eager subjects for postural restoration - FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES. I can't help but see a big flaw in the logic of the whole theory.

    I do not doubt for a minute, that the actual therapeutic intervention will have success, but I doubt that it has anything to do with the minutae of the techniques, and all to do with the perception and nervous system of the patient receiving the treatment.

    I have to commend you Olly, on your obvious courage to jump into a thread with such a critical flavour, and on your enthousiasm for the technique. I think the gap between what I have learned to see as "key" to therapy is just too far removed from what you see as the key.

    I must add that I would have responded very differently 10-15 years ago, when my level of understanding was such that the proposed mechanism underpinning Postural Restoration, would have been very alluring....

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  • Barrett Dorko
    replied
    Check out post #51 in the "Posture and Pain" thread. I think it relates pretty well to this discussion.

    Where are the rest of the PRI practitioners? Is Olly the only one willing to speak? Why is Hruska himself silent?
    Last edited by bernard; 09-06-2006, 01:16 PM. Reason: Added link to post #51

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  • nari
    replied
    I keep reminding myself of CP patients, who are about as asymmetrical as one can get, with what seems to be very overloaded segments. Yet they are not in pain, apart from various common complaints that fit within the scope of 'usual' complaints such as worn menisci, etc.
    Asymmetry and pain are not related; the brain does not object to asymmetry.

    Nari

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  • bernard
    replied
    Hi All and Welcome to Olly.

    I'm frustated. I was told that diaphragm, as lungs and many/all things in chest/belly were already asymetrical.

    As Nari, I think that the poor balanced (often pain free) patients are the results of muscle activation/relaxation governed/dictated by brain.

    Your statements tell us that it is possible to have a reverse opportunity? acting on muscles will change the brain?

    Leave a comment:


  • EricM
    replied
    Humour Break!

    Rogue Science

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  • Jon Newman
    replied
    Olly, I'm getting the sense that your minute or two might be up.

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  • Luke Rickards
    replied
    Let's assume
    assuming everything I have said is correct
    Well, that's just the problem. How does it work if we don't assume this?

    Luke

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  • nari
    replied
    How instant is instant? Seconds?A few minutes?

    The complexity of reasoning and special names for vague areas of the body is a bit of a worry. I don't think one can make up new names without a good deal of backing from the scientific community.

    One should not have to take a course in order to understand the basic theory behind how a muscle group behaves under stress, normal comfortable positions and in sport.

    Can you elaborate on your views on how the brain and CNS fits into what you have said so far? Much appreciated.

    Nari

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  • Diane
    replied
    Thanks for your first round of answers Olly. I have more questions, but I'll get in line behind others, let you have time to answer their questions.

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  • stregapez
    replied
    Olly,

    (Sorry to have spelled your name wrong above ~ wasn't any attempt at humor there, just spaciness)

    So, a few questions come to mind directly relating to what you said above : Would you expect the above scenario to necessarily or typically cause pain? , What type of pain would it tend to cause? Why would it cause pain (in nervous system terms)? And are there any studies yet indicating that this type of assymetry causes pain ?

    In case it's of import/of interest, I am right handed and my right shoulder is higher, by the way, but I have no back or torso pain unless i sit for long static hours at the computer for days, or do hip hyperextension exercises. I'm 40

    Dana
    Last edited by stregapez; 09-06-2006, 05:12 AM.

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  • EricM
    replied
    Olly,

    You wrote that at first you were skeptical of PRI. What is it you were skeptical of and what changed your mind?

    Eric

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