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Jason, ditto what Nari said. Your comments/thoughts are always welcome.
Dana, I'm leaning more toward Interfacial Ectodermotherapy.
Here is a link to the spin-off Autonomics thread.
"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong."~Lorimer Moseley
“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.”~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis
"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists"~Roland Barth
"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Thought I'd post briefly and bring this thread back to the top of the list for my classes this week.
The new thread regarding autonomic confusion (if it's fair to call it that) has already reduced the amount of time I need to spend explaining what's going on there. I still have a sense that I can state with confidence that warming accompanies correction and that this can be reasonably explained as a consequence of both normalization of the neurodynamic (most likely a reduction in tension) and a shift toward parasympathetic support.
Is there anything in that new thread that would specifically refute that? I'm trying hard not to characterize speculation as fact.
Is there anything in that new thread that would specifically refute that?
Not especially, not yet, other than certain sorts of pain syndromes feel burning and have to keep a cold wet towel against skin. When was the last time we had that sort of pain patient visit us? Well, ok, there was the woman lately who told me she had to strap ice packs on her feet to go to sleep. But it does seem to be more common the other way round.
The autonomics thread is far from over. I've lots more to bring from the Grieve article and I was planning to bring what I could find in Butler there too. Unless someone else wants to beat me to the finish line and get Butler's content going...
"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong."~Lorimer Moseley
“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.”~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis
"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists"~Roland Barth
"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
warming accompanies correction and that this can be reasonably explained as a consequence of both normalization of the neurodynamic (most likely a reduction in tension)
I just thought of that photo of Yves in Nanaimo retesting the ULLT after SC. This would actually make an interesting study.
Diane, I've got a patient at the moment who has to wear wet shoes to work!
OK. So the too hot thing happens too. Sample of two. There you go Barrett.
Somebody is going to have to do some counting some day, and determine the likely proportions of the too-colds versus the too-hots, in persistent pain states. Or maybe they are persistently cold in some areas of the body and too persistently hot in others.
Like everything else seen in outpatient practice these are people who function regardless, usually... blend in with the rest.. it would be nice to know more. Menopausal dysregulation would need to be ruled out somehow because of how confounding a factor it is.
"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong."~Lorimer Moseley
“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.”~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis
"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists"~Roland Barth
"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong."~Lorimer Moseley
“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.”~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis
"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists"~Roland Barth
"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
So are you Luke, so are you.
I think a deeper point that can be drawn from this banter is the fact that nothing in the nervous system, or at least the autonomic part of it, can ever be concusively one thing or another, same as with beards. Even if it is one way rather than the other, 99 times out of a hundred.
Maybe we should adjust the statement or category within the "characteristics of correction" or WESS, known as "warming", to something slightly more accommodating, such as "temperature change." That would change the acronym to TESS... temperature change, softening, surprise, effortlessness. (What do you think Barrett? Too radical?)
"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong."~Lorimer Moseley
“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.”~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis
"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists"~Roland Barth
"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Today I'd say that temperature change covers it about 90% of the time, toward warmth 80% (they don't always "feel" cold to begin with), toward cooling 5% of the time. This is my distinct impression and though I'm well aware of the problems of empiricism I have combined this with a plausible deep model, I think.
See "No Deep Model" on my site for more on this.
Thank you for your help. I will tell my class today that the finest minds in Canada and Australia are working on this for them today. I'm sure they'll be very impressed.
I have something that I'd like to clarify for my own understanding.
It is my understanding that most of the thermoreceptors of the body are located in the dermis. Thus whatever warmth there is to experience originates here. Heat can only be conveyed through convection, conduction and radiation. I think radiation is an unlikely source for this warmth (the type being discussed here) which leaves conduction and convection. Hopefully we can straighten out some of my ignorance here. When we feel warmth due to changes in prevailing flow of blood (from core to periphery) I'm thinking this is due to conduction rather than convection but I am actually unsure. That is, the process that "heat" gets to a thermoreceptor from the blood is through conduction. Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.
Regardless, a shift of blood from core to periphery is normally associated with the parasympathetic nervous system and so it would make sense that a sensation of warmth in the absence of hot lamps or other forms of heat generation are likely due to this shift in blood flow and hence a sign of the parasympathetic activity occurring within.
That is, the process that "heat" gets to a thermoreceptor from the blood is through conduction.
I wonder. I think the thermoreceptors are "stimulated".. conduction not convection is more likely in a system that is not liquid. Well, mostly non-liquid. Well, mostly liquid but the liquid is all compartmentalized so it might as well be non-liquid.
Regardless, a shift of blood from core to periphery is normally associated with the parasympathetic nervous system and so it would make sense that a sensation of warmth in the absence of hot lamps or other forms of heat generation are likely due to this shift in blood flow and hence a sign of the parasympathetic activity occurring within.
I don't know about that anymore. The story I now accept as useful, and congruent with evolution, is that the sympathetics, not the parasympathetics, open blood flow to the "periphery" (i.e., limbs as opposed to gut) to assist escape or combat with a predator. But they simultaneously drain skin, i.e., make it less vulnerable to bleeding out/minimizing blood loss, if there is going to be a conflict with a predator that involves ripping and tearing of skin. To me, now, it makes more sense to move away from lumping skin in with "periphery", and treat it separately. One could say, I think, categorically AND accurately for the most part, that sympathetics shunt blood away from endoderm AND ectoderm (including prefrontal cortex and other CNS used for thinking), and increase it to mesoderm. Our HPA axis is very busy but the rest goes on standby, which means we don't think straight and have to rely almost entirely on the non-conscious to rescue us.
The parasympathetics, on the other hand, assist metabolism. That is to say, they minimize blood flow from periphery and maximize it to core/gut to aid digestion, and to the skin to enhance thermoregulation. Parasympathetics turn down/decrease blood flow to mesoderm, and increase it to endoderm and ectoderm.
I don't know for sure what this might have to do with pain or no pain, but I'm thinking on it. Certainly, in a crisis (when the smpathetics take over, and blood is shunted to mesoderm, away from ectoderm, and the brain goes into survival mode due to a sudden, more immediate threat level to its existence, pain is forgotten about for a time.
I think the pattern of blood flow based on embryologic layer of origin is fairly workable. Makes more sense to me anyway, for now. Today. I think as an explanation it's more consistent with SC as well. What do you think Barrett? Luke?
"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong."~Lorimer Moseley
“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.”~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis
"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists"~Roland Barth
"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Your thoughts on ecto versus meso in terms of shift patterns relays a better conceptualization than "core to periphery" does. If it's accurate, that will help quite a bit.
The convection/conduction issue can likely be resolved with a better appreciation of the anatomic relation of blood and thermoreceptors (as well as what is found between the two). I suppose it is possible that both types of energy transfer could occur.
Please help squash some of my ignorance.
"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris
a better appreciation of the anatomic relation of blood and thermoreceptors
I think at the finest level of microanatomy it would be awfully hard to tell the two apart anymore. Maybe only a cell membrane would separate them, same as between any other two cells.
"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong."~Lorimer Moseley
“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.”~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis
"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists"~Roland Barth
"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
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It might scare the horses...on the other hand, I haven't thought of a zippy name either.
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