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  • Postural sway

    I wonder how postural sway fits in with ideomotor movement, Barrett.

    I was thinking about how postural sway is there all the time, under the surface. How it is masked by higher level motor control. How it is more apparent in people who have had too much to drink, when their ordinary social inhibitions are removed along with the postural inhibitions.

    Then I thought, hmmnnn!!! I wonder if simple contact and asking someone to feel their body moving, movement that is there all the time but masked, has to do with asking them to feel postural sway.

    It occurred to me that this is what they are being asked to feel and get to know and allow to come into being. Not the way a drunk would, with no control, but a deliberate entry into the sway and then waiting until some other part of the sway itself moves in to correct the trajectory of the first one.. linking the less consciously controlled postural reflexes with the vestibular system anew.

    I even wonder if (spinal) ideomotor movement is the same thing as postural sway. If it isn't, then I wonder if postural sway is, or could be considered as, a subset of ideomotor movement.
    Last edited by Diane; 24-03-2006, 02:15 AM.
    Diane
    www.dermoneuromodulation.com
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    "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

    “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

    “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

    "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

    "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

  • #2
    Diane,

    I think postural reactions, no matter how slow or smooth, are more likely to be a subset of sensorymotor activity (the startle reaction in response to threat) than ideomotion (movement secondary to a dominant thought).

    Postural sway also commonly has a rhythmic or circadian quality, and I don't see that in ideomotion. In addition, postural sway isn't typically associated with the characteristics of correction.

    I've heard many students express a similar confusion while working with each other in standing but the distinction becomes clear when I take over the handling and they find that some coercion had previously been present.

    I would agree, as you've mentioned before, that the most common motion seen first once Simple Contact is employed is a deeply imbedded rotation and angular movement of the spinal region. Not always, but quite commonly.

    In any case, what I focus on are the characteristics of correction, not the location or size of the motion.

    See:
    http://www.barrettdorko.com/articles/characte.htm
    Barrett L. Dorko

    Comment


    • #3
      OK, thanks for clearing that confusion up. And the dominant thought is, "let your body move in a way that reduces the pain you feel."
      Diane
      www.dermoneuromodulation.com
      SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
      HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
      Neurotonics PT Teamblog
      Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
      Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
      @PainPhysiosCan
      WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
      @WCPTPTPN
      Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

      @dfjpt
      SomaSimple on Facebook
      @somasimple

      "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

      “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

      “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

      "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

      "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

      Comment


      • #4
        I prefer to think that the instinctive request and movement is more on the order of "Move in a fashion that resolves the abnormal dynamic."

        As Gifford says, “Any threat to the nervous system is a potential disaster for the future efficiency of those afflicted. Far better, and more efficient to, whenever possible, adapt to a new posture that protects the nervous system, than to injure the nerve and suffer the consequences of neuropathy.”

        As Wall then makes clear, resolution will follow, and those motions aren't always painless.
        Barrett L. Dorko

        Comment


        • #5
          So first you would have to explain "resolves", and "abnormal dynamic" to the patient... hmmnn. I know that's the idea overall, but how do you word it to the patient?
          Diane
          www.dermoneuromodulation.com
          SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
          HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
          Neurotonics PT Teamblog
          Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
          Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
          @PainPhysiosCan
          WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
          @WCPTPTPN
          Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

          @dfjpt
          SomaSimple on Facebook
          @somasimple

          "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

          “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

          “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

          "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

          "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

          Comment


          • #6
            I prefer to use the analogy of a hammerlock for the arm and explain why that would hurt. Then we can easily agree that, given the opportunity, anyone would automatically restore their arm to a position that loosened the nervous tissue.

            After they stand I can easily show them how their symptoms are accentuated with adduction of the hips and that self-correction (resolution) isn't confined to the arm. The problem and the solution are shown to reside in the same place i.e. in muscular activity that they can control and express depending upon what they want it to result in.

            Ideally, by the time they are ready to lie supine they are aware of what they possess that had not yet been expressed.

            As Benjamin Disraeli once said:

            The greatest good you can do for another is not just share your riches, but reveal to them their own.


            Barrett L. Dorko

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Barrett Dorko
              I prefer to think that the instinctive request and movement is more on the order of [B][COLOR="red"]"Move in a fashion that resolves the abnormal dynamic." [/color][/b]As Gifford says, “Any threat to the nervous system is a potential disaster for the future efficiency of those afflicted. Far better, and more efficient to, whenever possible, adapt to a new posture that protects the nervous system, than to injure the nerve and suffer the consequences of neuropathy.”

              As Wall then makes clear, resolution will follow, and those motions aren't always painless.
              Hi Barrett
              U have said most beautifully & in a nutshell the fundamental ( THE WHOLE BIBLE if i may say so) behind movement disorder,
              (one can only say things in such a nutshell when one understands it from its core. thank U Barrett)
              Last edited by bernard; 24-03-2006, 07:07 AM.
              Working on total solution for brain stroke patients with VASA CONCEPT
              www.brainstrokes.com
              Rajul Vasa

              Comment


              • #8
                postural sway

                Diane,
                I would think that postural sway is the nervous system's response to maintain the equilibrium(balance)that is constantly being disturbed by not so perfect alignment--- which is, in itself a defense that provides comfort and preservation of nervous tissue. How's that for a grand unifying theory? :lightbulb
                Gary
                Last edited by gary s; 24-03-2006, 02:10 PM.
                ___________________
                GARY
                " I speak Spanish to God, French to women, English to men, and Japanese to my horse."------Buckaroo Banzai

                Comment


                • #9
                  Dear Einstein, uh, I mean Gary,

                  I think you've said quite a lot here. Especially that thing about malalignment being a defense and not a defect.

                  I imagine that the majority of therapists who blame "poor" alignment for the patient's problems and then work hard to ablate it will now assume that for this assertion you will now go straight to hell.

                  See you there.
                  Barrett L. Dorko

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    postural sway

                    Barrett,
                    I'll bring sandwiches, you can bring the drinks.

                    Gary
                    ___________________
                    GARY
                    " I speak Spanish to God, French to women, English to men, and Japanese to my horse."------Buckaroo Banzai

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      You guys are going straight to Orlando?
                      "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I would think that postural sway is the nervous system's response to maintain the equilibrium(balance)that is constantly being disturbed by not so perfect alignment--- which is, in itself a defense that provides comfort and preservation of nervous tissue. How's that for a grand unifying theory?
                        I think that's true.. And I think the larger brain that got plastered on top of the original fish brain took over the 'steering wheel' or at least the control of it. The spine was there first, turned us into vertebrates. It undulated and moved us along through water. The undulatory spinal movement we enjoyed as acquatic vertebrates became buried under new layers that moved limbs when we came out onto land. Side to side undulation was dropped as a strategy by mammals, was kept by a few salamanders and reptiles etc. Mammals started to find they could move faster if they moved/undulated their spines up and down instead of side to side. Whales went back to being aquatic but kept their up and down undulation and swim that way instead of going back entirely to side to side undulation the way most fish swim.

                        So my point is, sway comes from a deeper more nonconscious (early evolved) part of the brain than does ordinary movement. And it occurred to me maybe that's why it shows up more when alcohol knocks out inhibition.

                        Then I wondered: if postural sway (sideways) shows up more with inhibition/suspension of higher function, how is it different from the extraordinary spinal movement that sufaces with the permission afforded it/encouraged by simple contact? Could it be postural sway and ideomotor motion go together some how?

                        Gary, I think you are right about postural sway being defensive, but I think there are a couple things more to be considered. First, the fish muscles/nonconscious motor outflow are not able to swim us rostrally anymore, we are on two feet with a new relationship to gravity, therefore they operate upward vertically. Usually they operate with a bunch of extra wiring and feedback designed to restrain them from displaying large amplitude. We need them there operating at all times (i.e. without erector spinae and co. we wouldn't be upright at all); as upright creatures we are thrown off balance all the time by our breathing and moving about.

                        Take away the inhibition, (e.g. with too much alcohol) and we can still breath and move about, but postural sway is no longer subtle and (nearly) invisible. It becomes exaggerated by the fact (I think) that higher (later evolved) levels of motor coordination are temporarily zapped, nonconscious ones take over, and the resulting movement isn't very pretty.

                        Similarily, take away the inhibition by asking someone to reduce it, and postural sway becomes more obvious, also. The higher (later evolved) levels of motor coordination are not zapped, rather they are variably suspended, the nonconscious motor outflow is amplified, and the result is extraordinary movement that is eerily beautiful to see and delicious to feel.

                        Now, I still am not clear on the differences between sensori-motor, excito-motor, and ideomotor classes of movement, and how they all coordinate. I'm much more a neural crest creature than I am a neural tube creature, I guess. Can anyone enlighten me? Or do I go to remedial class for that?
                        Last edited by Diane; 24-03-2006, 04:37 PM.
                        Diane
                        www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                        SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                        HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                        Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                        Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                        Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                        @PainPhysiosCan
                        WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                        @WCPTPTPN
                        Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                        @dfjpt
                        SomaSimple on Facebook
                        @somasimple

                        "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                        “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                        “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                        "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                        "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Diane,

                          Thought-provoking as always. Maybe some of these movements get mixed together. That would certainly explain everything without having to think about it too much. Perhaps getting drunk reveals our "lower" centers in ways beyond what we commonly see in "The Dogpound" at a Cleveland Browns' game. This is Northeast Ohio's version of soccer hooligans for those who don't follow the NFL.

                          Your attention to evolutionary influences makes sense. I agree that, when drunk, people move more like whales than fish. Have I got that right?

                          Yes Jon, I'm going to Orlando for the APTA conference in June. I especially want to see Stan Paris deliver the McMillan lecture on Thursday afternoon. I understand he's going to dedicate it to me. Just kidding.

                          Anybody else here going?
                          Barrett L. Dorko

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Perhaps getting drunk reveals our "lower" centers in ways beyond what we commonly see in "The Dogpound" at a Cleveland Browns' game.
                            Dogpound is a term that also keeps cropping up on American Idol. (I confess to watching that sometimes.) I guess it means howlingly expressive cheering section?
                            Your attention to evolutionary influences makes sense. I agree that, when drunk, people move more like whales than fish. Have I got that right?
                            Not quite. The spine tries to be fish and the later additions try to be whale but they cease to work together co-operatively. The result is very uncoordinated and unesthetic.

                            My observation (first and third person perspective) with ideomotion is that fish and whale interact with fish being allowed bigger amplitude by whale, but whale standing by, still awake, not anesthetized, and not allowing human to fall sideways completely over into gravity. The whale and fish motor control trade functions, in other words, for a little while. If it were a dance, fish leads and whale follows for a change.
                            Diane
                            www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                            SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                            HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                            Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                            Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                            Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                            @PainPhysiosCan
                            WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                            @WCPTPTPN
                            Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                            @dfjpt
                            SomaSimple on Facebook
                            @somasimple

                            "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                            “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                            “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                            "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                            "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi Diane,

                              One of the strange attractors at my cubicle is the "interoffice envelope". It usually contains the most recent journal article I've requested. I do my part to ensure that our librarians will always have a job. In today's envelop I received Conscious intention and motor cognition written by Patrick Haggard (found in TRENDS in Cognitive Sciences (Vol. 9 No. 6 June 2005)).

                              I think you'll find the answers to some of your questions in that article.
                              "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

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