Deconstruction of the Runaway "MFR" Thread

[Diane]

Nari, watch the video Jon linked to. Just to add to your storehouse of info re: microtubules etc.

[nari]

I can't look at them - the server blew them out of the water twice, after about two minutes of downloading.

Nari

[Luke Rickards]

I went to lecture on embryology at the university of NSW in Sydney last year given by a professor of physiology. The topic of microtubules came up and I remember him stating strongly that no one has ruled out the possiblility that these are artifacts of the tissue fixing/staining processes.

[bernard]

The research not only proves cells other than neurons are capable of long distance communication

How long, exactly? That why the nervous system exists. :lightbulb

[bernard]

Underground" Tunnels discovered as means for communication between immune system cells

Where is the fascia here?

[nari]

I'm now interested in this microtubules debate; PubMed appears to have 200+ entries on research into the little critters. Some of it must be valid; and if it is not, then PubMed is unreliable as an accurate source of information. ?

Long distance communication by anything other than the nervous system seems unlikely, to say the least; but until a short while ago glia were thought just to play a secondary and supportive role for neurons. That has changed dramatically....
Perhaps a foray into the microtubules affair is worthwhile - I'll see what I can dig up that seems noteworthy.

I am not sure about the connection between fascia and microtubules either..

Nari

[bobmfrptx]

This is a pleasant story about the effect of your care.
Physical possibility would be nice as well.

Barrett, I understood you by inserting the physical possibility line implied that you understand that my pleasant story could not really happen.
Apologies if that wasnt the case.

To ALL
I never discounted the nervous system. Acknowledging that there are other long distant communication processes in action which I understand also communicates with the nervous system, actually supports the NS major role in the body. You are defending something I agree with.

Jon,
Thanks for the feedback. Again all good questions and insights. Things to be considered in a valid clinical research study. I was the primary care giver in the case of my younger son. As soon as he would fuss, rub his ears, or there would be that tell tale odor of infection. I would treat him.
Symptoms resolved every time and quite quickly.

Have a pleasant day all.
bob

[bobmfrptx]

Barrett,
Who are they and why are they scrambling? Or could it be you who is scrambling to deny any other possibilities even exist other than the ones you understand to be true?
I am not denying any scenario, especially NS. Also, I am not looking for sparkling new and offbeat ideas.
"Status quo is just a fancy phrase for the mess we are in." Ronnie Reagan
bob

[Barrett Dorko]

Bob,

No, that wasn't the case.

Science includes all plausible evidence and then discusses which is the best. Neuroscience is way out ahead of any evidence and consequent theory of effect offered by the MFRers. At this point, no other theory is needed. Though not complete, this doesn't imply that any alteration in physical law is needed to expand upon it. We simply need to understand the deep model more completely.

I find quite commonly that students at my workshops would prefer it otherwise. They want a mesodermal explanation because that tissue is so much easier to measure, coerce and understand. Treatment of it also fits into the billing system without any trouble. Of course, somewhere in there what's actually going on inside the patient is lost.

[vajranata]

If I'm not mistaken, Barnes uses microtubules to represent the fascial system on the cellular level. Perhaps Bob or someone else can confirm that. Here is a chunk of his delightfully entertaining piece, MFR: The Scientific Rationale, where he refers to microtubules a couple of times.

The conduction of signals through the nervous system cannot
proceed faster than about 20 meters per second and cannot carry
a large number of diverse signals at the same time. Yet there is
evidence that the entire organism acts as one.” This instantaneous
communication flows through the fluid of the body in and
around the microtubules of the fascial system. “It has been found
that this instantaneous communication is at 20,000 times the
speed of light, relativity theory’s supposedly unbreakable speed
barrier.” To summarize, the fluid within and around the microtubules
of the fascial system (the container of our mind) carries
almost instantaneous energy and information throughout so we
can function as a coordinated, balanced whole.

[bobmfrptx]

Barrett
Thanks for the well written reply. I am open to understanding all on a deeper level. It will be interesting to see what comes out in the research ahead.

As I understand it the fascia is one of the handles which we can use to provide the stimulus to obtain a response from the NS and the Microtubules which are both embedded in and surrounded by connective tissue.

I tried to get to one of your courses this August, but the timing was not right. I dont think I could make it to the western courses. Hopefully you will be around these parts in the near future. I would love to attend.

bob

[bernard]

Underground" Tunnels discovered as means for communication between immune system cells

the Microtubules which are both embedded in and surrounded by connective tissue.

Is fascia/connective tissue an immune system? :thumbs_do

[bernard]

Sci STKE. 2005 Dec 6;2005(313)e55. Related Articles, Links
Comment in:

• Sci STKE. 2005 Dec 6;2005(313):eg11.

Long-distance calls between cells connected by tunneling nanotubules.

Onfelt B, Purbhoo MA, Nedvetzki S, Sowinski S, Davis DM.

Division of Cell and Molecular Biology, Sir Alexander Fleming Building, Imperial College London, South Kensington Campus, London SW7 2AZ, UK.

Long membrane tethers between cells, known as membrane nantotubes or tunneling nanotubules, create supracellular structures that allow multiple cell bodies to act in a synchronized manner. Calcium fluxes, vesicles, and cell-surface components can all traffic between cells connected by nanotubes. Thus, complex and specific messages can be transmitted between multiple cells, and the strength of signal will suffer relatively little with the distance traveled, as compared to the use of soluble factors to transmit messages. Connecting multiple antigen-presenting cells, for example, can help amplify and coordinate immune responses that are distal to an antigenic site. Conversely, because the ability of a pathogen to spread between cells is a key determinant of its capacity to multiply, pathogens may exploit nanotubes for their own transmission.

Publication Types:

• Review

PMID: 16333019 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Sorry but this kind of communication is effective at short range only.

[bernard]

Curr Biol. 2003 Sep 30;13(19):1728-33. Related Articles, Links
Long-range communication between chromatin and microtubules in Xenopus egg extracts.

Carazo-Salas RE, Karsenti E.

Cell Biology and Biophysics Programme, European Molecular Biology Laboratory, Meyerhofstrasse 1, D-69117 Heidelberg, Germany. Rafael.Carazo-Salas@cancer.org.uk

The mitotic spindle of animal cells is a bipolar array of microtubules that guides chromosome segregation during cell division. It has been proposed that during spindle assembly chromatin can positively influence microtubule stability at a distance from its surface throughout its neighboring cytoplasm. However, such an "a distance" effect has never been visualized directly. Here, we have used centrosomal microtubules and chromatin beads to probe the regulation of microtubule behavior around chromatin in Xenopus egg extracts. We show that, in this system, chromatin does affect microtubule formation at a distance, inducing preferential orientation of centrosomal microtubules in its direction. Moreover, this asymmetric distribution of microtubules is translated into a directional migration of centrosomal asters toward chromatin and their steady-state repositioning within 10 microm of chromatin. To our knowledge, this is the first direct evidence of a long-range guidance effect at the sub-cellular level.

PMID: 14521840 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

Bob, you're quite out the reality!
10µ is not really a long distance. In contrast, a neuron "speaks" over meters.

[Diane]

P. 14, Comparative Vertebrate Neuroanatomy: Evolution and Adaptation, by Ann Butler and William Hodos:

Virtually all animal cells react in some way to the physics and chemistry of the environments that they inhabit. Some multicellular animals however, have evolved a special network of cells (neurons) that have the ability to communicate with specific groups of other neurons in a highly precise manner. This cellular communication network is the nervous system. Among the advantages of a nervous system are that it is able to take information about the surrounding environment and process it in some way before the animal reacts. This processing provides the animal with options such as to respond or not respond to a stimulus, or to respond one way or another way. In addition, a nervous system offers the ability to store information about the consequences of a particular response to a particular environmental stimulus; this information can then have an impact on the course of future action when a similar stimulus next occurs. Because of the wide range of chemical and physical events that are of importance to animals, certain neuron or neuron-like cells became specialized for the detection of these stimuli, such as light, pressure, chemical, and temperature detectors. These nervous system specializations, known as receptors, along with specializations of various body parts, permitted animals to enter and exploit new regions of the environment. To the extent that these explorations were successful, they led to further specialization and adaptation.

Signaling is rapid, long range, whole body, and versatile (provides options).