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  • Diane.
    Did I say I took it for granted? Did I say I felt the NS was in the back ground? To the contrary, I stated that it acted whenever a stimulus was present and sent out response to effect a change in its quest for homeostasis. Do you read what I write or read into so you can now bash me too? You seem to feel I am disregarding the currently accepted neurophysiology. Where did you get that from?

    The microtubules are real and do communicate like it states in the University of Pittsburgh findings. These were immune system cells if I recall correctly. The title afterall was "Underground" Tunnels discovered as means for communication between immune system cells . Dr's Watkins and Salter. A quote from the research follows. "The research not only proves cells other than neurons are capable of long distance communication,but it reveals a hereto-unknown mechanism cells use for exchanging information."

    Dare to dream Diane. The water crystals was in reference to the Japanese physicist who wrote the amazing properties of water or something like that. It was directed to Barrett since I do not believe he has written on this topic.

    Does the sistine chapel have nice windows? And arent nerves sensory organs? Very picky group of people subscribed to a simple site.
    Bob

    Comment


    • Originally posted by bobmfrptx View Post
      Diane.
      Did I say I took it for granted? Did I say I felt the NS was in the back ground? To the contrary, I stated that it acted whenever a stimulus was present and sent out response to effect a change in its quest for homeostasis.
      Seems that way.
      Do you read what I write or read into so you can now bash me too? You seem to feel I am disregarding the currently accepted neurophysiology. Where did you get that from?
      Um, maybe from your posts, and the way they do not include any.

      The microtubules are real and do communicate like it states in the University of Pittsburgh findings. These were immune system cells if I recall correctly. The title afterall was "Underground" Tunnels discovered as means for communication between immune system cells . Dr's Watkins and Salter. A quote from the research follows. "The research not only proves cells other than neurons are capable of long distance communication,but it reveals a hereto-unknown mechanism cells use for exchanging information."
      Case in point. Why focus on this? Exactly? Surely at the level of two nervous systems interacting in a treatment situation the neurophysiology has an overwhelmingly more important communicative role to play.

      Dare to dream Diane. The water crystals was in reference to the Japanese physicist who wrote the amazing properties of water or something like that. It was directed to Barrett since I do not believe he has written on this topic.
      I'm sure Barrett will get back to this, but til then, are you by any chance referring to the guy who says that water receives impressions of emotion going on around it and will crystallize accordingly?

      Does the sistine chapel have nice windows? And arent nerves sensory organs?
      Some are, and some actually are "motor"..
      Very picky group of people subscribed to a simple site.
      Bob
      Yes we're picky and proud of it. :angel:
      Diane
      www.dermoneuromodulation.com
      SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
      HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
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      Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
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      @dfjpt
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      "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

      “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

      “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

      "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

      "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

      Comment


      • Bas....
        I am interested in the why thing....I asked several times why do you think that happened? I do read the literature...I said I am not aware tht we know exactly why the results we all get happen...it is the exact that I do not need to know at the present...Will we ever know the exact while we are living? I really dont think so since some of what was exact 200 years ago is by no means exact today. Change is the only constant.
        bob

        Comment


        • Diane,
          Are nerves really motor as well as sensory! Slap me silly and call me daisy.
          Neurophysiology...stimulus/ response....communication/intrepatation/action....too simple for this site?
          Why focus on a new communication tool between cells? Its new a previously unknown. This is how understanding and knowlege is assimilated, by acknowledging the findings of the researchers. The fact that you feel the neuro communication is more important doesn't discard the reality of another communication network.
          Yes that is him. I know very little of his work and threw it in just to stir the caldron. Smile
          bob

          Comment


          • Neurophysiology...stimulus/ response....communication/intrepatation/action....too simple for this site?
            No. It's just an outdated view of the nervous system.
            - Chris
            "The nervous system may well process inputs in terms of available response systems. "
            -Patrick Wall

            Comment


            • Hi Bob,

              Did I just get lucky? Good timing? The bugs died? I don't know.
              I think this is where some of the problem might lie and I commend you for holding on to some doubt.

              I don't think it is lucky that most people with inner ear infections get better. I would, in fact, expect it (with medical care). Good timing is helpful to be sure. Being last in line for those casting about for a cure certainly favors the conflating of natural history (and other medical care) with therapeutic effect. Not that you are the last in line for care but it is likely the case based on how referrals work in US.

              Regardless, claiming (or more accurately suggesting--see quote below) that you ought to get credit for the fix while there is a very reasonable possibility that you ought not get credit (indeed you wonder this yourself) seems premature.

              Or did I by inputing a proper stimulus allow the body to utilize in a greater good the chemicals of the medication and the bodies own healing properties?
              I'd be interested in a general description of what you do with your patients with emphasis on the proper stimulus part.
              Last edited by Jon Newman; 26-11-2006, 03:47 AM.
              "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

              Comment


              • From Bob:

                Barrett:
                Also, it seems like you are not willing to do anything other than brush me off as someone who cant possibly be doing what I claim has happened. Well the physical possibility of that ear thing is that it has and will continue to happen as long as I continue to treat. Unlike you, I trust people until they prove untrustworthy. If I do some clinical research with the ear thing I wil report the findings and you can bet they will be truthful.

                From me: Okay Bob, this is the way it works here. If you say that someone has said something they didn't say you're going to be asked to provide a quote. Please provide that for the accusation you've made here; specifically that I said you didn't accomplish what you claim.

                The previous 8 pages of this thread aren't enough to teach you what you need to know about the contribution of the nervous system to recovery.
                Barrett L. Dorko

                Comment


                • Bob,

                  From my end of the line, it sounds as though you do not consider the NS a major, if not the player in physiological functioning. That may be wrong, but it comes across like so....

                  People like to go hunting for the whys of biology; that's how useful research gets done. Years later, what were taken as profound conclusions are shown to be out of date/inaccurate/simplistic and so on. That's how it goes.
                  To add something I think may be relevant -

                  Dr Felix Franks of the University of Cambridge is starting to look closer at Masaru Emoto's work; especially in terms of hydrogen bonds and their peculiar nature of binding together easily, but tearing apart very easily.
                  He is hypothesising why homeopathy seems to work, based in this premise, and makes this statement with reference to live structures:
                  Without water it's all just chemistry. Add water and you get biology.
                  Reference: Robert Matthews, Reader in Science at Aston University, Birmingham, UK /New Scientist 8 April 2006 pp 32-37

                  One could say that all three scientists are crazy; but I suspect we would have to be careful about saying who's crazy and who isn't.

                  BTW, your posts would seriously be easier to read if there were spaces between paragraphs? I never did read James Joyce for that reason...

                  Nari

                  Comment


                  • Why focus on a new communication tool between cells? Its new a previously unknown. This is how understanding and knowlege is assimilated, by acknowledging the findings of the researchers. The fact that you feel the neuro communication is more important doesn't discard the reality of another communication network.
                    To skip all the way over the entire nervous system, and everything (as Chris pointed out) that has been learned about its behavior in recent years, in favor of championing some "new" communication theory instead, is to not do the proper homework. I don't know why you'd do that, unless it's a restless stirring for something predigested instead of digging in and learning about what's already there. The MFR crowd seems to be awfully adept at looking past the obvious in favor of the new, weird, offbeat, more sparkly, and less likely.
                    Diane
                    www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                    SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                    HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                    Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                    Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                    Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                    @PainPhysiosCan
                    WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                    @WCPTPTPN
                    Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                    @dfjpt
                    SomaSimple on Facebook
                    @somasimple

                    "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                    “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                    “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                    "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                    "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                    Comment


                    • Good point Diane. They're scrambling to come up with something that defends the notion that the mesoderm not only causes the dysfunction/pain but that it also solves the problem via some unexpected mechanism.

                      As is often said in the skeptical scientific community, the natural world as we discover it is amazing enough, we don't need to invent anything that violates natural law.
                      Barrett L. Dorko

                      Comment


                      • Jon posted this excellent link the other day. The speaker prior to Ramachandran spoke of microtubules a bit. Several physicists were in the room and his presentation was not well recieved. Watch for yourself, but the theory he used was based upon quantum physics.

                        Barrett's statement:

                        the natural world as we discover it is amazing enough, we don't need to invent anything that violates natural law.
                        seemed to be at the essence of the physicists problems with the theory.

                        It was interesting and thought provoking, but relied upon a lot of poorly understood mechanisms.
                        Cory Blickenstaff, PT, OCS

                        Pain Science and Sensibility Podcast
                        Leaps and Bounds Blog
                        My youtube channel

                        Comment


                        • Personally, I would be interested in the whole microtubules and communication thing. I don't think there is any reason to focus solely on the nervous systems contribution to pain and health. I think that is going down the road that so many here complain about the mesodermalists going down, the exclusion of other factors due to the favoring of some. However, I'm really not expert enough about the way these microtubules work to have a discussion. A small blurb from an article written for laypeople isn't going to give me the background or support that this is actually something to get excited about.

                          Blood letting and green toads where once medicinal. This doesnt mean that there is not something better. -Bob

                          Also, it seems like you are not willing to do anything other than brush me off as someone who cant possibly be doing what I claim has happened. Well the physical possibility of that ear thing is that it has and will continue to happen as long as I continue to treat. Unlike you, I trust people until they prove untrustworthy. -Bob

                          The thing is Bob, that bloodletting and green toads were medicinal because of thinking like you express above. We all suffer from confirmation bias, seeing what we want to believe but not seeing what violates are belief system. We are all really good at deluding ourselves. So no, I don't "trust" people, even if I think they are honest and think they are telling truth, what I expect is that there be some objective evidence that what they say is true.

                          Comment


                          • If you want to know the biggest dilemna I face it is "how much can I trust myself and what I observe and think I know?" This is the question that is giving me fits.

                            Comment


                            • Randy, learn everything you can. Eventually some things start to link up and make more sense than other things. Or looked at another way, some things have roots that go down as far as you can see, while other things just stop and dangle in midspace, and are supported by nothing real. I see you still think mesoderm has something to do with something. Without the nervous system, it's just meat.
                              Diane
                              www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                              SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                              HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                              Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                              Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                              Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                              @PainPhysiosCan
                              WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                              @WCPTPTPN
                              Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                              @dfjpt
                              SomaSimple on Facebook
                              @somasimple

                              "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                              “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                              “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                              "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                              "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                              Comment


                              • Just an afterthought - even just googling microtubules, there is a large amount of stuff available, along with references, author details; and the origins of the papers seem like honorable universities; apart from a few odd personal opinions which can be ignored. There is one paper which suggests that microtubules may control the centrioles, and thus directly affect the NS and not the other way around.
                                However, if this is controversial, I will leave it for others to do a bit of sussing out, for those who are interested. Even if it means deconstruction....

                                Nari

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