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  • Bob,

    Well, you've connected Simple Contact to MFR, thus making it impossible for me to believe you've actually read anything on this site.

    As Bas said, if you don't care about anything other than than carrying on about what you think you sense and telling us how much you care for your patients, this site isn't for you.
    Barrett L. Dorko

    Comment


    • Barrett
      What you believe is what you believe.....sorry you can't trust what I said...While you continually strive for the explanation of the mechanism I will continue what I am doing. I also will continue to monitor the research and still ponder the findings. Logical, Linear thinking, I believe, limits ones ability to see beyond those instances where 1 + 1 does not equal 2.
      A question for you. Over 100 times in my practice I have treated infants, children and a few adults inner ear infections, blocked eustachin tubes, with what I learned as CST and MFR. The majority of these were headed for tube insertion. All, yes all, were spared the wasted process of tube insertion. Just 2 weeks ago a therapist friend of mine brought her 4 y.o. daughter in who was scheduled for tube insertion based on tympanogram study. I treated her twice 2 days apart. After the first treatment, Mother reported slept thru the night, no snoring, breathing better and not fussy. She saw the pediatrician after the second visit and the tympanogram was now in the normal range. So far no relapse and no tubes. What mechanism allowed this childs body to restore normal tympanic tension following my touch? I have several theories, but I can't say they are Gospel. Sorry Gospels are faith based. I can't say they are fact. Clinically, the symptoms resolved. I am interested in the reason why, but I am not performing any research.
      You can only toch a person in so many ways no matter what you label it. So similarities must exsist in all forms of bodywork. The only difference being is what the practioner believes he is doing. I have spoke with the pediatrician and we may try some clinical research with the tympanograms.
      What are your feelings on the fascial research conference scheduled in Boston this coming June?
      Thanks for the time.
      Bob

      Comment


      • reply to diane

        Originally posted by Diane
        but bob, you've got to admit this has little or nothing to do with fascia or with the idea of poking at it to the exclusion of the NS, or with trying to dream up farfetched mechanisms to try to support a MRF theory construct.
        Diane, I do not poke at the fascial system. And how could I exclude the nervous system? Working on cadavers is not part of my practice.
        bob
        Last edited by bernard; 24-11-2006, 06:49 PM. Reason: quote

        Comment


        • Bob, excuse me if I thought you were here to defend MRF.. I assumed you were since you showed up on this particular thread and no other.

          About your second to last post, you might care to read through this thread about something called undermind. When you've completed that, there is another called Infinity of Perceptions that could also be titled "Undermind II", or "Undermind: Welcome to the next level." My point is that letting the mind wander around through anatomy minutiae while treating, or envisioning perceptual fantasies, is not unfamiliar to many/most of us here. It's something to think about and wonder about and examine. Then to put into context.

          The board doesn't exist to defend that activity, it tries to understand it in a broader fashion, along with a whole bunch of other things. So if you are here to champion undermind thinking, people are going to say, been there, done that, next. If you're here to help contribute to/learn about a greater level of understanding about what is going on overall, from a more rational linear part of the mind, fine. Your.. writing.. style .. makes me think.. you live... in the undermind ...most of the time.. at least... and write... directly... from it ..
          Diane
          www.dermoneuromodulation.com
          SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
          HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
          Neurotonics PT Teamblog
          Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
          Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
          @PainPhysiosCan
          WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
          @WCPTPTPN
          Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

          @dfjpt
          SomaSimple on Facebook
          @somasimple

          "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

          “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

          “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

          "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

          "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

          Comment


          • Hi Bob,

            If you're going to the conference consider reporting about it here.
            "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

            Comment


            • Bob,

              You say, "What you believe is what you believe.....sorry you can't trust what I said...While you continually strive for the explanation of the mechanism I will continue what I am doing. I also will continue to monitor the research and still ponder the findings. Logical, Linear thinking, I believe, limits ones ability to see beyond those instances where 1 + 1 does not equal 2."

              No, I don't seek to believe anything, I seek to understand. Don't mistake me for anything less. Give me a reason to trust you and it might happen. So far...

              This is a pleasant story about the effect of your care. You say you have "several theories" but they are not "Gospel" which is a statement I find quite confusing on several levels. Care to explain what you might mean and how that precludes you from sharing your ideas? If you haven't noticed, we don't ask for original research by contributors here, just plausible explanations.

              Physical possibility would be nice as well.
              Barrett L. Dorko

              Comment


              • First International Fascia Research Congress
                http://fascia2007.com/

                Some of the categories of interest:
                The presence of contractile cells (myofibroblasts) within the fascial fabric. Clinicians are interested in their role in creating contractile tonus in the fascial fabric, how they form, how they are activated, and their influence on passive muscle tonus. (Gabbiani-1,2 Grinnell-1,2,3 Schleip-1,2,3,4 Tomasek-1,2)
                Biomechanical properties of fascial tissues: creep, relaxation, hysteresis, effect of sustained spinal flexion on lumbar tissues, strain induced hydration changes, myofascial manipulation and fascial viscoelastic deformation. (Gracovetsky-1 Hinz-1,2,3 Solomonow-1,2,3,4)
                Mechanotransduction between the cytoskeletal structure within the cell and the extracellular matrix, and its implications for health and disease. (Grinnel-1 Grodzinsky-1 Ingber-1,2,3)
                Forms of mechanical signaling within the fascial matrix, such as the tugging in the collagen matrix created by twisting acupuncture needles (Langevin-1,2,3,4)
                How fascia is innervated, and how proprioception and pain are created, detected and modulated by the spinal cord and the rest of the nervous system. (Bove-1,2 Khalsa-1,2 Mense-1,2,3,4)
                Other recent findings and significant hypotheses in the realms of biochemistry and biomechanics of fascial deformation and reformation. (Findley-1,2 Huijing-1,2,3 Shah-1 Standley-1 Vleeming-1,2,3)

                Comment


                • Barrett,
                  Well, first when i said I arrived here by accident and read some of the threads...you state it is impossible for you to believe I did read anything on this site because I linked simple contact to MFR. I think you chose to not believe me or did I misunderstand? Also, I asked you a question of what you thought happens when infection and fluid in ears clear so dramatically with touch. You failed to answer me but asked me a question.
                  Having remembered the threads on faith after I typed the word Gospel, Icorrected that word with fact. You read into it what you may. Sorry for the confusion. I am not here to get in to a symantec war with a writer.
                  I am interested in your clinical point of views. What do you understand the mechanism to be when bodies correct so dramatically?

                  Me, I feel that thru the appropriate touch, with intention, the body processes the incoming stimulus and decides how it should respond. Communication is via the sensory organs in the skin, tendons, cells, microtubules via electrical and chemical signals. Based on some Japenese studies there may be even communication via light particles. Through this communication the body does the rest of the work. Shortening , lengthening tissues. Sending chemicals to act. Restoring homeostasis- a state all living organisms strive to maintain. I appreciate you feel my clinical results are pleasant, so do the clients. Try not to be so condescending. I shared my ideas in the previous posts. It seems to me that we are all in the business of offering the best possible care to our clients regardless of the mechanism not in defiance of it. Do we really know what is exactly happening? No I don't believe so. Will I continue to seek the theories and findings of others? Sure will. Will I know that they are exactly what is going on or just be labeld to the best of our knowledge?
                  Don't know. I am really interested in what you believe. Clinically you have years of practice. I remember reading you articles in the eighties. One was of an older lady who came to you for treatment. You gave her your best efforts but did not get the results you anticipated. This happens frequently due to the clients believe system, needs and wants. Some people need to be in the "sick" role. So please do not percieve this as bashing you. You ultimately sent her on her way to someone else because you had nothing to offer her. An excellant article with an excellant lesson.
                  So please share with me what you understand to be true.
                  thanks in advance
                  bob

                  Comment


                  • Bob,

                    If you're going to ask me here what I think the mechanism of correction is you've simply made my point. Am I supposed to reproduce in this thread the hundreds and hundreds of threads that have preceded and now surround it? This work's all been done for you by several regulars here. Are you seriously asking us to do it all again?

                    You've made the claim about the ear thing, not me. Why should I provide a theory?
                    Barrett L. Dorko

                    Comment


                    • What do you understand the mechanism to be when bodies correct so dramatically?
                      Hello? The nervous system.
                      To champion any other mechanism for "dramatic" "correction" would mean having to rule out the nervous system as a confounding factor. Good luck trying to do that.
                      Diane
                      www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                      SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                      HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                      Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                      Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                      Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                      @PainPhysiosCan
                      WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                      @WCPTPTPN
                      Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                      @dfjpt
                      SomaSimple on Facebook
                      @somasimple

                      "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                      “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                      “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                      "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                      "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                      Comment


                      • Hi Bob,

                        I've got all kinds of questions. Were any those 100s of people with inner ear infections on antibiotics or receiving other treatments also?

                        What is the reliability of tympanogram? Is it in the realm of possibility that a person could test "positive" at one time point and negative at another even without treatment?

                        You state:

                        All, yes all, were spared the wasted process of tube insertion.
                        Is tube insertion inherently a wasted process or might some benefit from it?

                        Have you ever had a failure? If so, what happened to them (or him, or her)?

                        Thanks.
                        "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

                        Comment


                        • . Communication is via the sensory organs in the skin, tendons, cells, microtubules via electrical and chemical signals. Based on some Japenese studies there may be even communication via light particles.

                          Diane:
                          Who discounted the nervous system? I understand the NS to be a sensory organ.

                          Barrett:
                          Also, it seems like you are not willing to do anything other than brush me off as someone who cant possibly be doing what I claim has happened. Well the physical possibility of that ear thing is that it has and will continue to happen as long as I continue to treat. Unlike you, I trust people until they prove untrustworthy. If I do some clinical research with the ear thing I wil report the findings and you can bet they will be truthful.

                          Sorry to trouble you to repeat some answers which may or may not give me an insight to what you understand to be true. I will go back and search for what you have already written in these last 8 pages. When did you become so closed to possibilities. Hope I clarified the gospel thing.

                          Did you discuss the water crystals? Maybe we can do that?
                          Bob

                          Comment


                          • Calling the HNS a sensory organ is like saying the Sistine Chapel is a building with nice windows.
                            - Chris
                            "The nervous system may well process inputs in terms of available response systems. "
                            -Patrick Wall

                            Comment


                            • I understand the NS to be a sensory organ
                              Well you could have fooled me..
                              Besides, it's not only a "sensory" (affector) organ but also the primo E-ffector organ in the body, synchronizing all the processes so that nothing interferes with anything else in any given moment. One simply cannot take it for granted, or take any of its processes for granted, or regard them as mere background noise while one let's one's imagination move on to microtubules or water crystals.. hello? This is the organ we are actually treating? Bob? Are you there?
                              Diane
                              www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                              SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                              HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                              Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                              Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                              Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                              @PainPhysiosCan
                              WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                              @WCPTPTPN
                              Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                              @dfjpt
                              SomaSimple on Facebook
                              @somasimple

                              "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                              “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                              “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                              "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                              "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                              Comment


                              • Thanks for the great questions Jon. Some were on antibiotics and others no. The latest one had been on two separate courses each of 10 days. When I got to her she had been off meds for 3 days. Did I just get lucky? Good timing? The bugs died? I don't know. Or did I by inputing a proper stimulus allow the body to utilize in a greater good the chemicals of the medication and the bodies own healing properties? All good questions.

                                I have two sons. One lives with me and has all his life . The other lives with his mother and has all his life. As infants they, as so many do, got inner ear infections. The son who lives with me had augmentum with his first infection when he was 18 months. He also got treated by me. Over the course of his childhood years he had 4 or 5 bouts of ear infections. He never had antibiotics again for that condition and never need tubes. He did and still does get treatment by me. He is now 15. My other boy, was not allowed by his mother to be treated by me. He had medications all his life. Had tube insertions 6 or 8 times. Had his tonsils out also. The tubes help temporarily at best is my experience. They to often get plugged and end up coming out only to be found on the pillow. Do they help...must in some cases since they are the medically accepted treatment presently. Blood letting and green toads where once medicinal. This doesnt mean that there is not something better. Another anecdotal time when surgery was avoided was with my 20 year old sister. I was practicing in
                                Syracuse at the time and she was in college for speech pathology audiology. I spoke to her and discovered that she was scheduled for surgery...tubes and sinus cleaning... the following day. I told her I would be down to treat her before her appointment. Well the drive was 5 hours. I Treated her with what I know as MFR and CST( upledger and Gehin). She drained during the treatment. Copious green odorous mucous. She then went to the doctors appointment and they sent her home. No surgery. No recurrence. This was in 1987.
                                To my knowledge, I have never not been able to help with this particular diagnosis.
                                The reliability of the tympanogram? I do not know, but I am going to find out and try to do clinical research if possible. I have talked with the pediatrician regarding this . I will report on it if it comes to be.
                                Again thanks for asking.
                                bob

                                Comment

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