Deconstruction of the Runaway "MFR" Thread

[stregapez]

I spent about an hour typing here before work this morning, then somehow the computer lost the whole thing. Possibly a lucky thing for you readers, because it was god-awful long.

It would just be really wonderful if the teaching of "myofascial release" of the type the Barnes group does was not so centralized. Just a couple months ago I was interested in learning this, and I found that John Barnes himself (i presume with the aid of the PTs he employes, from what I gathered on the JBMFR list) was almost *the only* person teaching anything being called myofascial release, other than some Rolfers. From what I gather these two practices differ, and I wasn't interested in learning Rolfing.

I am not comfortable with John Barne's organization. I do, in fact, think there are probably some very good people in the group, at least many of whom very well may help their clients. In fact, I was impressed with some of what I read when I first joined the list. Unfortunately, an equal amount of it was very disturbing to me in ways I can't reconcile (and then there's the fact I wasn't even allowed to talk about that without being thrown off the list by the list moderator, sans notice)

The group seems to me highly vigilant, and overly protective of it's centralization and authority, and of keeping "MFR" pure. I could give you quotes to back that up, but I am tired at the moment.

I seems to me like it's not just "MFR," it's MFR with certain idiosyncratic theories on top. One of those is that memory is stored in fascia. I'm sorry but that is , to me, absurd. Why should so many people pay so much money to one group to be told things like this? ($700 a pop for the most part, multiple workshops recommended) With any dissenting thought apparently highly discouraged. Ick.

Why don't some of you folks who aren't part of the Barnes group, or who have issues with/reservations about aspects of it, branch off an teach this? Aren't there people other than me who might want learn the techniques sans some of the JB trappings (including the idea memory is literally stored in fascia) ? Actually I guess it's apparent from the post above some have branched off, but it would be good too if there were other accessible, advertized options.

I agree I'd like to see more overlap of communication between groups and maybe more freedom of expression within groups too.

But, on the bright side, for example, I'm a massage therapist and I've pretty much been welcomed here, even with some acknowledgment, by at least some people, that at least some of what I do may may beneficial . People don't always have to agree with me anyway.

Some people here have acknowedged that some of the myofascial stuff may be benefical too. But telling people (in my opinion) crazy stuff about how things work (memory is stored in fascia) is alienating and depressing for some of us.

Too (and perhaps overlapping with the fascial memory theory), some of the stuff done by the Barne's group seems to me, or, is, in my opinion, possibly out of the scope of practice of MTs and PTs too.

There was an incident on MFR Talk while I was on there where a young woman was upset with John Barnes and with some of the JB employed Pts (because of an experience someone else posted about) She posted numerous times about this. To my interpretation, this woman was thus considered to have an attitude and/or emotional problem by some of the others on the list, including some of the JB-employed PTs. One of those PTs *recommended she dialogue with her JBMFR practitioner about this* (not a friend, not her family, not a counselor, but a JBMFR parctitioner) If I have a disagreement with someone on a massage chat board, should they suggest I have hostility, and that I therefore should talk to my personal massage therapist about it, one trained by them, of course?

Dana

[Randy Dixon]

I will admit that my post was not specific to this thread but was influenced by other discussions I remember from RehabEdge, for those like Bernard whom I don't remember from there, that is not at all helpful. I agree with Barrett on this, if one sees others making mistakes in your profession you should speak out, if you see someone deliberately misleading others in your profession you must speak out.

So perhaps my first post can be considered something to be careful of rather than an observation of this thread. .

[nari]

Hi Randy

I can understand your thoughts about topics/threads that become defensive on both sides and sometimes heated up like a swarm of locusts; but as PTs we tend to be protective of what we know (or think we know). That's fair enough, and also for the other side/s to do the same, even if their rules are different.

Debating is legendary amongst keen minds - the scientists do it for neuron-enhancing, I'm sure; and some of their debates get pretty heated and angry at times. (Stephen Gould / Simon Morris Conway and lots of others) At the same time I agree that speaking out is important, and there are several ways to go about it.
Hope you will hang around and post.

Nari

[Diane]

Debating is legendary amongst keen minds

Absolutely agree. It makes minds keener. PT has far too much dogma and far too little debate. Our treatent culture evolved being soothers, levelers rather than sharpeners as a friend of mine once put it. Time to grow up, stop being suck-ups, such polite acquiescers, nodders-along, seekers of "groups" and treatment cults to "believe" in. Instead, time to deconstruct, get to the bottom of things, catch up to date in broad brush style on lots of different fields of science (not just our own Balnibarian version thereof), toss on a regular basis, and ARGUE, passionately, the various merits and demerits of this and that. How else are we going to evolve? Really evolve I mean, not simply accrete more layers of 'barnesacles'?
Good to see you again Randy.

[Diane]

I had some more thoughts about this this morning. Perhaps it's the middle age testosterone kicking in.. (Be afraid, be very afraid of middle age women who no longer act obsequious because estrogen poisoning is no longer neuromodulating the system.. alrighty, just kidding guys.. )

Anyway, here are the thoughts, for what they are worth;
1. Given that we are primates;
2. Given that primates are social groomers;
3. Given that social grooming is a peaceful conciliatory activity;
4. ... that is done wordlessly and manually from kinesthetic parts of the brain that come from pre-human sources evolutionarily;
5.... and that are not necessarily connected to human pre-frontals at all;

Given all of the above, is it any wonder that;
6. manual therapy tends to hone contemplativity in practitioners rather than stimulate debating skill;
7. ...may even attract individuals who are non-dominant, conciliatory, submissive, for any one of a host of reasons that have to do with inner make-up;
8. ... during its practice allows flights of fancy, allows conceptual hallucination to grow;

Given all that is it further any wonder that manual therapists in general;
9. default to group adherence in the face of any perceived conflict or threat to their troop;
10. ...which gives them a sense of belonging and peacefulness and parasympathetic calm, and therefore;
11. on behalf of which they will stir themselves into anger and defence, no matter how crazy the defended theoretical edifice? How preposterous the postulate?

The only way this tendency can be surmounted is, I think, to learn to think, and to make corrective, not collective, reasoning the goal. Throw off the shackles of ignorance. (If this sounds purple-pulpish rhetorical.. wait, there's more... )

Seriously though. The only way to the truth is to take up the lonely machete of independent thought, hack trails straight through the jungle of ignorance, toward the civilization of established science and away from encampments of 'let's pretend the body works in these ways that fit our own little narrow world view/belief system' comforting troop adherence. That's what churches are allegedly for. (Breaking the Spell, Daniel Dennett.)

Funny what happens when you do that.. you find other ignorance hackers and can make a new troop.

[nari]

Troop adherence...I like that.

Certainly works in crisis situations, whether it's people or aggressive groups of baboons on a hunt. Sometimes it is absolutely necessary for survival. Pelagic fish can affirm that.

But if we are not talking basic survival (ie, to kill or be killed), it has its downside. I'm thinking of the specialty groups within physiotherapy where knowledge is limited to their particular bit of turf (body). Knowledge is continually acquired, but only in relation to what sits within their defined boundaries; their own paddock.

eg if a knee hurts, it could be spine, PFS, OA, derangement, OSD - an enormous knowledge base. But the scary thing is the widespread belief that if it is in the periphery and involves a joint, it is put in the joint paddock. Some even put up electrified fences to keep out irrelevant intruders.

I think a forum should exist purely to welcome visitors in and encourage them not to choose between paddocks, but to get up in a vantage point and survey them all and see how they sit in the lie of the land.

Nari

[bobmfrptx]

wow what a thread......

well I stumbled across this by accident and whew it got my attention......so many interesting points of view and so many conflicts......well geronimo........here I dive into the fire........My practice utilizes MFR as taught by Barnes, I also use McKenzie, Cyriax, Maitland, Kaltenborn, Chaitow to name a few.....I do not force hidden memories from people, how would I do that??? I do not recite incantations(mantras) to alter peoples paradigms...how could I do that...individuals belief systems are just that...individualized...I do not force I do not spout I am here just to let the pain move out....Apologies Dr. Seuss....I gather from all the post we are all here to do that...primum non nocere...declare the past...diagnose the present...foretell the future...practice these acts. as to disease, make a habit of two things- to help or at least do no harm....
I do palpate through the skin...as Dr. Harty my anatomy teacher at Penn always sputtered...palpate palpate palpate you must feel the tissue to get to the issue...I can feel deep in to the body...what do I feel?...soft /hard/tight/ relaxed thick/thin...hot/cold...what else can I feel?I look at the individuals as well, from all angles statically and dynamically....I listen to them...then I try to return the body to its physiological resting state as described by Chaitow...I do this thru contact with the patients skin and all those tissues underneath which are connected via connective tissue...I influence the direction of pull and then let the body lead me in other directions....I follow I do not guide i let the body decide...why?...ok..I touch the organism ( a stimulus) the organism tightens to protect (a response) I talk to the organism to allow the brain( conscious control ) to tell the body to let go and feel and use the voice to protect itself, if things hurt tell me to stop...then as the end organs and nocioceptors in the organism process my touch and intention to determine if it is safe or dangerous it responds (subconsciously)....it responds via the nervous system and also as discovered this year in Pittsburgh cell to cell via microtubules (formed by connective tissue) faster than nerves can fire ...then the body acts...end organs rebias and obtain new resting lengths...postural reflexes re-program to new positions in space and the organism repositions in the gravitational field...with less effort....results joints work freer, lung capacity changes, organs of elimination function better due to unkinking the hoses.....etc....what have I done? Through inputing a gentle pressure to the body and following that body's restrictions and allowing that body time to process the stimulus and respond...I have allowed that body to create or regain compressed or lost space...sort of like freeing up the hard drive to let the processor perform better......I did this all through contact with the skin and connective tissue fascia......patients feel better physically chemically and emotionally....memories are held in the cells which communicate via nerves and tubules and probably in ways we still dont know....do I need to know the exact mechanism no not really...and any way as we have learned in quantum theory...research outcomes can be affected by the expectations of the observer......for me it brings back the old chicago tune....does anyone really know what time it is?.....well for me it is time to continue doing what I do and allowing the body to decide if it is appropriate or not....so far in the last 20 years of practicing this way I have allowed thousands of painful bodies to move in less painful ways,,,,consciously or not, simply or complicated, evidence based or pure voo doo...and so it goes.......
bob

[bernard]

Hello Bob and Welcome,

also as discovered this year in Pittsburgh cell to cell via microtubules (formed by connective tissue) faster than nerves can fire

References?

emotionally....memories are held in the cells which communicate via nerves and tubules and probably in ways we still dont know....

but, you said, earlier

I do not force hidden memories from people, how would I do that???

That is a simple contradiction.

[Barrett Dorko]

Bob,

Are you sure you read this thread? Streams of consciousness full of claims unsupported by any sort of evidence aside from arguments from authority and personal experience don't do well here.

Might you try writing in paragraphs?

[Diane]

Hi Bob, loved your stream of consciousness post.
Many times a day I remind myself that if blind people can learn Braille, can learn to create language/images out of raised bumps on a page, see/interpret them as symbols for other things, so we as individual therapists can learn to perceive the bumps we feel, then develop a language for them, (kinesthetic in our case, sometimes visual). Then I have to remind myself that this language will never the same between any two practitioners because of its non repeatability. I find my own mind operates/oscillates between two modes; one mode is me consciously applying a move to see what will be the outcome. The other mode is my laidback perception of my own nervous system feeling thoroughly joined into that of my patient, both systems sensing each other and moving quite spontaneously (ideomotor movement) according to whatever the systems themselves find interesting in their "now moment" kinesthetic conversation - my sensory apparatus is usually no longer aware of where the boundary is between my hand and their skin. The best outcomes seem to happen when that second mode is allowed to take over (although I don't know that for a fact). Usually the hands on the clock seem to speed up. I think this is an example of what Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi refers to as "flow."

As predominantly non-ortho practitioners we could easily drift for the rest of our lives, just treating. However, other levels of the world beckon. In order to take this way of life we enjoy, that our persistent pain patients appreciate and benefit by, teach it to others, help it sustain itself long after we are dead, we need to make it accessible in an abstracted form. The abstracted form must be clear, reasoned, truthful, and congruent with what is already known. Lucky for us, there is SO MUCH already known.

If we investigate what is already known about living vertebrate organisms such as ourselves, taking care not to get lost in mesodermal approaches/concepts/constructs but to take that kinesthetic language and try to make conceptual sense out of it, we find the nervous system has evolved to be something that can function both locally and nonlocally simultaneously, within the bounds of the body at least. How cool is that?

So, to get back to the point I'd like to make, this board functions as a counterweight to the rest of the supposedly "evidence-based" world of manual treatment. It doesn't mean we get to be any less evidence-based, in fact our job is harder, because we have to learn to grapple conceptually with that harder to learn system that filamentously occupies every corner of the body, that gives rise to, oversees, produces behavior in, then responds to every single cell everywhere, coordinating all homeostatic output toward two twin goals, reducing threat and increasing survival of its organism. It's not easy, but it sure is fun. And by being excruciatingly logical we will be able to show some day that we really do know what we're talking about, that we really are not just good practitioners but that our system trumps all others. Of course, we all have to put a shoulder into building it first, and remove our support from the perpetuation of conflated ideas that are incongruent with science or absolutely anti-scientific, are based on those lovely kinesthetic conversations (perceptual fantasies) that don't translate well, that lead straight to conceptual hallucinations.

[bobmfrptx]

nice to be here I believe......references....http://newsbureau.upmc.com/print/printtunnelCell Study2005.htm http://www.umc.pitt.edu/pittmag/summ.../feature1.html http://www.aaets.org/article30.htm
also I said I do not force memories I do allow them to come out from the cells which have encoded them.....a simple misunderstanding
bob

[Diane]

I do not force memories I do allow them to come out from the cells which have encoded them.....a simple misunderstanding
bob

I can entertain the idea of "memories" encoded in the nerve cells or relationships between nerve cells of the hippocampus, and/or amygdala, and/or other bits of brain, and large reflexive patternings/cell behaviors resulting via the autonomics out into the body and back into the brain, which is consistent with the neuromatrix model by Melzack, but bob, you've got to admit this has little or nothing to do with fascia or with the idea of poking at it to the exclusion of the NS, or with trying to dream up farfetched mechanisms to try to support a MRF theory construct. I glanced briefly at the second link (the first one wasn't connected), and saw stuff there that looked like just more fluff, frankly..

[bobmfrptx]

tension on cell membranes cause them to behave erratically...relieving this tension lets the cells function properly...thats all i am saying...I will get the references . I am not building a MRF theory do not need too do not want too I'll let that to you professional researchers thinkers.... Me I will do what i do for the benefit of those who come to be treated by me....i really do not think the university of pittsburgh promotes fluff.....
bob

[bobmfrptx]

Diane:
loved your kinesthetic dance ...that is exactly how I feel...it is my perception and is only repeatable by me...you may have a completely different sense/feel as to where the tissue takes you...kinda like I am tuned to 93.1 and you 101.7....eventually you will compress or distract tissue in the same direction as me and vice versa...the benefactor is the client....do I know the exact mechanism which facillitates the change? no and again I do not feel the need to know exactly what is going on...not so much due to blind faith as too this really works and I have not done any harm to anyone. Bodywork, MFR, Simple Contact, Alexander Technique,.....A Rose by any other name.....I thank you for your research mindfulness, keep it up after all the world beckons...or at least the world which agrees with your belief system...that is who you are...I am not an airy fairy drifting in clouds of love although I love the occassional trip there...but a student of the people who seek me for relief....they do not need me to do anything other than what I am doing....Do you think Bobath, Brunnstro Rood and Micheals had symantec wars to market thier approaches to neuro rehab?...what a huge waste of time...I like what my friend Mariano Rocabado told me a long time ago....when a patient comes to my clinic it is my goal to allow him to last 100 years through whatever methods I know....thats kinda where i am now...
I enjoy your posts...look forward to more....
bob

[Bas Asselbergs]

Bob, I'll be brief. If you are NOT interested in finding out why what you do is effective, then why are you here? If you haven't noticed, that "why" is a huge part of this site - how do we interact with a patient and why does it do what it does? I appreciate you sharing, but it hasn't brought any further argument, criticism, study or concept to the issue.