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  • It's not hard to make the truth sound interesting to patients Pia. I tell patients I'm going to stretch their skin, and just their skin. (That much is true.)
    I tell them about their brain, that it never stops working to keep them alive. That that is how they can breath even while they are asleep. That their brain will be very interested in the skin stretch because it is so aware of and reliant on skin to tell it about the environment. That the brain will investigate, because it can't help itself. That it will soon see that there are things that need doing right underneath where the skin is being stretched and that it will get in there to make things right, that it's a process, that the brain is doing all the work while I just hold a flashlight for it.

    I also combine skin stretch with all kinds of positional leverage of limbs or body segments, done to diagonally budge the cutaneous nerves/neural tunnels as I visualize them a bit this way or that, roll them a little, bow them, bend them etc. .. This movement is made infinitely easier because of two anatomical realities: The skin is attached to the body, and so is the diaphragm. The nerves are strung everywhere in between. I can take the skin/limb one way and they can deep breathe and stretch their innermost layer the other way, and the neural tunnel's shape can be changed, and the nerve inside it refreshed. I've already told the patient, shown them a picture, of how the nerves travel everywhere; I let them know that it's the nerves that hurt them, the nerves we have to slide a bit to help reoxygenate, that motion is lotion, that once they feel their movement again they'll need to keep it, and we seguey into movement therapy after, often these days, ideomotor. Not so hard

    If you ever get a chance to go to hear Lorimer Moseley talk about his research, go. No mysticism, just science, but really really practical, applied science, the sort we can all use and feel like we're coming out of the dark ages with our hands-on work and its fast pain relief, not going further into them.
    Diane
    www.dermoneuromodulation.com
    SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
    HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
    Neurotonics PT Teamblog
    Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
    Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
    @PainPhysiosCan
    WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
    @WCPTPTPN
    Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

    @dfjpt
    SomaSimple on Facebook
    @somasimple

    "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

    “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

    “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

    "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

    "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

    Comment


    • Hi All,

      I just wanted to add an insert here for any S.I.'ers or rolfers that may be listening. Last fall I attended Barrett's S.C. course and I walked away greatly appreciative for all of the information I was exposed to. The class content reminded me of what my late practitioning instructor, Petor Melchior, told us more than a few times-"that what we were doing was changing the mind about the body". For me the S.C. course helped explain how this was happening. Thanks Barrett.

      Chance

      Comment


      • Chance,

        Thanks for this. I recall distinctly our speaking briefly at lunchtime. I pretty much do the same presentation wherever I go. How is it so few respond as you and Tim and Eddy have. In short - What's wrong with you guys?
        Barrett L. Dorko

        Comment


        • Some Oz sites on MFR

          Found it interesting that Diane Lee and Linda-Joy Lee from BC, who are held in high regard worldwide, teach myofascial release:

          http://www.amta.com.au/diane_lee_tour.htm

          and some info on MFR:

          http://www.post-polionetwork.org.au/news/ppn33.html


          Nari
          Last edited by bernard; 03-03-2006, 11:45 AM. Reason: edited link

          Comment


          • Barrett, you're right - the solution is a self-administered one....

            Bernard, good link for a sad chuckle....It boggles the mind that the drivel "The Divine Cosmos" is presented as "proof" of the aether - the AETHER! My goodness, the article is positively rife with abject nonsense, wrapped in mysticism, with a sprinkling of poor quantum babble and spiced with a extra dose of it-has-been-known-and-used-by-ancient-sages blather. It makes a tasteless, unintelligent mix....

            nari: I am not that surprised of the myofascial inclusion in Diane Lee's course material - I have followed her and Andry Vleeming's work for many years, and good as it has been for our understanding of anatomical features, fascial connections throughout the body, the NERVOUS system has never played any role in their work, certainly no brain - at least, I have never seen it there. It is a mechanistic view of human function and dysfunction, and much as I appreciate Vleemings heightening my understanding of anatomical and fascial constructs, I miss the nerves in their work....
            We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

            I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
            Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

            Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

            We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack

            Comment


            • Diane - what a lovely and concise description of manual interaction - thanks.
              We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

              I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
              Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

              Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

              We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack

              Comment


              • I once worked for 2 years in a private clinic with LJ Lee. She is a fantastic clinician and educator. However, I think they may be using the term 'myofascial release' in a different context than what is implied by the Barnes school of thought. But don't quote me on that.

                Eric
                Eric Matheson, PT

                Comment


                • lovely and concise description of manual interaction
                  Thanks for that Bas.
                  I think they may be using the term 'myofascial release' in a different context than what is implied by the Barnes school of thought.
                  What sort of context do you think they are using Eric?

                  Diane Lee has been a reknowned and prominent feature of the PT landscape here and afar, for as long as I've practiced manual therapy, and I can recognize her. I've not crossed paths with her however, we don't know each other. Alas, I wouldn't be able to pick out LJ in a room full of people.

                  I've watched (Diane) evolve from being a dedicated bone pusher to becoming a stability fan (complete with Hodges' hoop diagrams of TrA decorating her clinic) to this last phase, with which I am not familiar..

                  She is a parade marshall. She cannot help it. She does something and the world watches. She evolves and the world copies her moves. She thinks of a new (to her) angle and she immediately tries to study it/measure it/teach it. She has managed to bring the whole profession into watchful acknowledgement, sort of the way Childs has started to do. Out of such individuals gurus are made, are acclaimed, but at least these two individuals color inside the lines "scientifically" ...

                  Every individual has to negotiate the landscape, the topography of life's endeavors. Some have a mountain to climb. Some mountains are very high and require an entire entourage and special equipment to breathe the rarified air. Others have just hills, that are easily climbed alone, can be tobogganed several times, and examined from every angle, the ascent practiced in many different ways until that hill is completely known, familiar.

                  I look forward to whatever sense Diane Lee can make of the phenomenon of "MFR", be it the Barnsian sort or the Leesian sort, where it fits on her personal life mountain, how she will interpret it/ negotiate it based on all the other rock faces she has scaled, has taught others to scale. Will she take along the right sort of equipment conceptually or will she rely on her in-the-moment wits and proven support systems to see her through?
                  Diane
                  www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                  SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                  HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                  Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                  Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                  Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                  @PainPhysiosCan
                  WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                  @WCPTPTPN
                  Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                  @dfjpt
                  SomaSimple on Facebook
                  @somasimple

                  "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                  “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                  “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                  "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                  "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                  Comment


                  • I'm not exactly sure Diane, I know several therapists where I currently work who use the term when they are just stretching and doing contract-relax type techniques.

                    eric
                    Eric Matheson, PT

                    Comment


                    • Although I have used MFR for many years, my personal take has long been that whether it's traditional MFR, traeger, rolfing, continuous passive motion machine, etc, it's all myofascial release. However, since the SC seminar, my view is beginning to change.
                      "Enlightenment is your ego's greatest disappointment."
                      Anon

                      Comment


                      • Eric

                        It also sounds like the PTs who use 'mfr' techniques are doing remarkably the same sort of thing as the 'muscle energy' boom of the 90s.

                        A rose by any other name?

                        Nari

                        Comment


                        • It also sounds like the PTs who use 'mfr' techniques are doing remarkably the same sort of thing as the 'muscle energy' boom of the 90s.
                          Nari, do you mean the light contract relax technique favored by the osteopathic people and systematized by the Fred Mitchell(s) DO(s) senior and junior?
                          Diane
                          www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                          SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                          HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                          Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                          Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                          Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                          @PainPhysiosCan
                          WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                          @WCPTPTPN
                          Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                          @dfjpt
                          SomaSimple on Facebook
                          @somasimple

                          "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                          “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                          “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                          "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                          "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                          Comment


                          • I don't know...too long ago to remember any details.
                            A few PTs I knew well were rather dismayed by the pomp and circumstance of 'muscle energy' but it is widely used here. Luke can fill in with some details..if he is not tied up with removals to the West (well, half West)

                            Nari

                            Comment


                            • I also combine skin stretch with all kinds of positional leverage of limbs or body segments, done to diagonally budge the cutaneous nerves/neural tunnels as I visualize them a bit this way or that, roll them a little, bow them, bend them etc. .. This movement is made infinitely easier because of two anatomical realities: The skin is attached to the body, and so is the diaphragm. The nerves are strung everywhere in between. I can take the skin/limb one way and they can deep breathe and stretch their innermost layer the other way, and the neural tunnel's shape can be changed, and the nerve inside it refreshed. I've already told the patient, shown them a picture, of how the nerves travel everywhere; I let them know that it's the nerves that hurt them, the nerves we have to slide a bit to help reoxygenate, that motion is lotion, that once they feel their movement again they'll need to keep it, and we seguey into movement therapy after, often these days, ideomotor. Not so hard
                              Facinating description, Diane. Especially the part about the skin being attached to the body as well as the diaphragm being attached ..and the innermost stretching the other way.....Sounds just like the therapy I give and receive.
                              Pia
                              PS: Greetings from Walt - he likes the fuscia much better than one of Barrett's cheap hats

                              Comment


                              • Like I said all along Pia, what I do probably doesn't look any different than what you guys do. What's going on in my head is quite different, however.
                                Are you admitting (at last) that what you do affects the nervous system? Or that the treatment is directed toward opening out neural tunnels to help nerves be more comfortable, less cranky? Or that the PNS is a signal system for fascia and everything else in the body?
                                Last edited by Diane; 08-03-2006, 03:35 AM.
                                Diane
                                www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                                SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                                HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                                Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                                Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                                Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                                @PainPhysiosCan
                                WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                                @WCPTPTPN
                                Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                                @dfjpt
                                SomaSimple on Facebook
                                @somasimple

                                "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                                “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                                “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                                "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                                "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                                Comment

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