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  • Chris,

    How do you define the framework of MFR?
    "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

    Comment


    • Jon,

      I'm just referring to all the stuff you guys have been shooting down for the last couple of months. I'm not going to try to describe it all. Walt & Co. did a good job of that already. I'm not defending it. I'm just saying it sets up a quick basis for a treatment that seems to work pretty well, without trying to school everyone in the science of mechanoreceptors and messenger molecules, etc. Barnes sets up a whole basis for treatment in about 2 hours. This is said from my limited perspective. I am not qualified to speak on behalf of Mr. Barnes, whether by technical knowledge of his "system" or by initiation. I attended two of...however many seminars it takes to become a Barnes-ian

      I have been studying/practicing Chinese martial arts and chi gung for about 20 years. It is from this experience that I understand how unscientific systems of thought may be employed to enable certain types of experience that may be, otherwise, quite difficult to access.

      I do understand your camp's point that maybe more valid scientific knowledge exists that Barnes could employ if he chose. Maybe it wouldn't be harder for him to teach, in simple form. I don't know. Maybe he really believes in what he teaches. I don't know that either. Honestly, I have a limited interest in Mr. Barnes. Like I said, he has his strong areas. I appreciate him exposing me to the idea of using ideomotor movement in therapy, which I believe is a keystone technique in resolving chronic pain, but he's leading a parade I can't follow. But, that's a discussion for another type of forum...one I would never join.

      Someone mentioned to me that this discussion was taking place, so I decided to check it out. I want to learn all I can about this type of therapy. I will attend Mr. Dorko's seminar as soon as it becomes practical.

      Why is Oschmann's research not viewed as credible?

      -Chris

      Comment


      • Chris

        You said that Barnes uses ideomotor movement in therapy.

        How?? From your personal experience.

        Nari

        Comment


        • Chris,
          Why is Oschmann's research not viewed as credible?
          Because he doesn't have "concept validity." ()
          See this article for some ideas on that. Did you read the Harriet Hall review of Oschman's book?
          Diane
          www.dermoneuromodulation.com
          SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
          HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
          Neurotonics PT Teamblog
          Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
          Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
          @PainPhysiosCan
          WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
          @WCPTPTPN
          Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

          @dfjpt
          SomaSimple on Facebook
          @somasimple

          "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

          “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

          “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

          "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

          "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

          Comment


          • Nari,

            After postural analysis, palpation, etc, mechanical techniques are used to "release" areas that appear "restricted". These techniques are gentle stretches into a perceived barrier that are held for at least 90 seconds until a perception of softening/lengthening occurs. You've already read all this in Walt's posts. Many times, during these techniques, movement will occur. The therapist follows this movement, providing support and trying to perceive what the client's body is trying to do. If they seem to be extending their neck, you would provide gentle support and assistance. If they're hyper-extending their back, you provide gentle support and assistance. It happens frequently, even with no mention of this phenomenon to the client. You know it's legitimate because they think you're doing it, when you've just been following. This is done until quiescence is achieved (or their time runs out ;-). Often times, this basic approach brings relief the client hadn't had since their pain began. I've never seen the theatrics Barnes demontrates on stage in my treatment room, but this quiet, gentle type of movement happens a good bit.
            -Chris

            Comment


            • Chris,

              We've mostly been shooting down faulty information presented as facts. Any framework built with faulty facts is likely to produce aberrant practices as well as useful ones. It is for this reason that I ask about how you define the framework. Is the framework you are speaking of the one that leads therapists to pin patients to plinth tables or to put patients in positions that encourage them to recount potential previous traumas under the auspices of "releasing" undetectable fascial restrictions? Or did you have a different framework in mind?

              When you state

              I appreciate (Barnes) exposing me to the idea of using ideomotor movement in therapy...
              You make it sound like this is what he recognizes it as and teaches it as. Is that what you meant to imply?
              "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

              Comment


              • Thanks for that, Chris...I know it has been said before but this was spelt out more step by step.

                The crucial difference is that during the movement phase you described, the patient is given "assistance and support".
                With SC this does not occur; after a short light touch followed by the movement, the therapist does not interfere with the movement in any way, but just follows, saying nothing, doing nothing.

                (I will stand correction on that from others practising SC!) There is certainly no 90 seconds of handling beforehand.

                External interference, whether verbal or tactile, at pre or post-movement initiation will change things.

                To me that is a very important difference. You might say that the same outcome is reached by different ways; however the fact remains that the 'research' basis and assumptions drawn by Oscham et al have not much to do with actual medical science.

                Nari

                Comment


                • Jon,

                  Sorry, but I didn't attend "Pinning Clients Down I or II". I think what I described is where he started with it. Where he has ended up with it...I'm afraid I may have left the party before that part of the festivities began. I described my impression of unwinding and the way it actually plays out in my treatment room. I would never dream of implanting ideas about possible buried memories. That sounds like the last thing I want to be involved with. If I wanted that angle, I'd be a psychiatrist, not a manual therapist.

                  -Chris

                  Comment


                  • I think that Chris brings up a point often ignored and I hear him saying something I commonly here from Barnes' apologists. They say, "I know there's a lot of crazy and potentially harmful stuff done by those who fully embrace Barnes' ideas and practice but I don't go in for that. I've just taken what you have identified as ideomotion and leave it at that."

                    I suppose I should be grateful for this and on some level I am. People leave my workshops saying, "You've explained how it is what I do works and I appreciate that."

                    But if a member of a profession sees another theorizing in a way that literally invites laughter from those who know better shouldn't they say something? Something about the theory, of course, not the person saying it. When the actual practice has been shown to be dangerous in any way - and "recovered" memory certainly qualifies - something needs to be said.
                    Barrett L. Dorko

                    Comment


                    • Mr. Dorko,

                      With all due respect, I am not ready to pass unilateral judgement on Mr. Barnes mfr. There are still some things about his work that intrigue me. It will take me time to figure through it all. Could be smoke and mirrors, but I want to be sure. I wish he wouldn't let people think of him as a magic holy man, and it is disturbing that he sells this image. He paints a confusing picture, maybe with full intent, or maybe he's just as caught up in it. Time will pan out the truth. I think you should act in a way that you believe is right, no matter who agrees or disagrees. There may be nothing more important in life than that.

                      I do believe that, given the means to find it, there is a perfectly legitimate explanation for any phenomenon. Best wishes.

                      -Chris

                      Comment


                      • It's lunchtime in Detroit where I have 55 therapists attending a workshop. I'm seated alone at the computer as usual. Four therapists have already come to me independently, without any prompting whatsoever, and told me that they have in the past been driven away from anything like this handling by a "bad" experience at a Barnes course. I have yet to say his name, describe his work or mention the term "myofascial." I would say that this number of therapists speaking to me about the issue spontaneously is about average.

                        I don't think for one minute that Barnes' behavior or the image he projects is anything less than calculated. He knows how many more students and followers he will capture with it - and the problem lies in those in the therapy community who desire that in a teacher far more than it lies in the teacher who decides to act that way.

                        Simply put, the real issue is not how the teacher behaves; we need to ask, "Why follow someone like that?"

                        This answer comes to mind: "Because I'm desperate."
                        Barrett L. Dorko

                        Comment


                        • Or naive. Or blithley ignorant about how wolves can and sometimes do, turn up wearing sheep's clothing in PT. How we all need to have working batteries in our BS detectors.
                          Diane
                          www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                          SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                          HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                          Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                          Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                          Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                          @PainPhysiosCan
                          WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                          @WCPTPTPN
                          Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                          @dfjpt
                          SomaSimple on Facebook
                          @somasimple

                          "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                          “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                          “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                          "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                          "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                          Comment


                          • Mr. Dorko,

                            "He knows how many more students and followers he will capture with it - and the problem lies in those in the therapy community who desire that in a teacher far more than it lies in the teacher who decides to act that way."

                            Yes. I agree on both counts. I just hesitate to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Well...I think we've about covered it. Looks like I'll be catching up on my neurobiology for a little while. Cheers guys. See you 'round. I'll stop by and say hi now and then.

                            -Chris

                            Comment


                            • Christopher said, "I do understand your camp's point that maybe more valid scientific knowledge exists that Barnes could employ if he chose. Maybe it wouldn't be harder for him to teach, in simple form. I don't know."

                              (1) Simple Contact is not a "camp". Attempting to apply basic science principles to manual therapy is not a "camp".

                              (2) Interesting that Barrett is able to teach these principles in a one-day course and conveys much of it through his writing and dialogue - for free. This is a sharp contrast to the thousands of dollars and multiple courses that need to be taken to "get" mfr. Walt, Pia, et al , in spite of being corrected, assert that we cannot possibly understand mfr because we have not taken Barnes's course(s) - even though several of us have.

                              (3) Barrett is able to introduce neurobiology in a day because, rather than trying to establish a camp or lead a cult, he asks people to look at the science, examine their practice, and think for themselves. It is not a popular approach for anyone seeking a leader to think for them. Barnes's levels are a progressive indoctrination in an ideology that should hold no place in manual therapy in the future.

                              (4) If ideomotion is the mechanism, clear out the garbage ("memeclean" as Diane has put it) of magical thinking. As placeboic and satisfying as it may be, it has no place in a profession that claims any scientific basis or credibility. Unfortunately, magical thinking is on the increase and there are many who would rather benefit from that market growth than examine (and change) their practice.

                              Nick
                              Nick Matheson, PT
                              Strengthen Your Health

                              Comment


                              • Nick.. you said it! Great post. Excellent summary of everything essential.
                                Diane
                                www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                                SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                                HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                                Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                                Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                                Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                                @PainPhysiosCan
                                WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                                @WCPTPTPN
                                Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                                @dfjpt
                                SomaSimple on Facebook
                                @somasimple

                                "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                                “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                                “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                                "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                                "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                                Comment

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