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  • No approach is perfect. No knowledge is perfect
    Yes, But my knowledge did not require thousands of dollars and many courses to acquire. But I guess that goes along with the brilliant businessman trait.

    Christopher B
    Christopher Bryhan MPT

    "You are more likely to learn something by finding surprises in your own behavior then by hearing surprising facts about people in general"
    Daniel Kahneman - Thinking Fast and Slow

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Christopher Squires
      It is my estimation that Mr. Barnes is probably a whole lot smarter than you might credit him. I think he makes a pretty poor guru, but a genius therapist. He's also a brilliant businessman and a charismatic speaker.
      I'm not a guru, I'm not smart neither kind. I'm unfortunately not a genius therapist. My pocket is empty and I'm not charismatic.

      But, Christopher, saying that a pretty poor guru is also a brilliant businessman and a charismatic speaker is the quite exact definition of a guru (in the bad way of the term).

      I emphasized your typical contradictions.
      Last edited by bernard; 14-02-2006, 06:18 PM.
      Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
      We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

      Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
      If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
      bernard

      Comment


      • Bernard,

        What are my contradictions typical of? Into what category would your scientific mind like to place me?

        My use of the word "guru" contains spiritual connotations. Contradictory? Yeah, maybe. Still applicable.

        -Chris

        Comment


          1. [n] a Hindu or Sikh religious leader and personal teacher
          2. [n] a recognized leader in some field or of some movement; "a guru of genomics"
          Sorry Christopher but I (we) have some difficulty to follow the religious thing that you enable with the guru interested by the elevation of minds and the businessman that is interested in the elevation of his cash profit.

          Ah, yeah I see, John Barnes! I got it!
          Last edited by bernard; 14-02-2006, 06:42 PM.
          Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
          We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTON

          Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler.
          If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
          bernard

          Comment


          • Chris,

            I'm trying to figure out if you actually have a point to make. Are you trying to convey something to us that you feel is important in some way?

            This is what I've got so far:

            You are content with the whether something works and wish that everyone else was too.

            Am I missing anything?
            "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

            Comment


            • I think there's one more thing: being content with what works regardless of how is somehow superior morally or spiritually. Would you concur with that, Mr. Squires?
              ,
              Diane
              www.dermoneuromodulation.com
              SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
              HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
              Neurotonics PT Teamblog
              Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
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              @PainPhysiosCan
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              @dfjpt
              SomaSimple on Facebook
              @somasimple

              "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

              “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

              “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

              "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

              "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

              Comment


              • I think you've hit upon something fundamental to these conversations Diane. I often sense that my objections to the irrefutable ignorance of the "energy" medicine crowd are met with a "tut, tut, you heartless monster" shake of the head.

                This is nonverbal communication pretty much though I have received a few letters over the years. Those are a whole lot of fun, of course.
                Barrett L. Dorko

                Comment


                • Now I'm confused.

                  Bernard,

                  "Sorry Christopher but I (we) have some difficulty to follow the religious thing that you enable with the guru interested by the elevation of minds and the businessman that is interested in the elevation of his cash profit."

                  Hmm?

                  Diane,

                  "I think there's one more thing: being content with what works regardless of how is somehow superior morally or spiritually. Would you concur with that, Mr. Squires?"

                  Again, hmm?

                  Mr. Dorko,

                  "I think you've hit upon something fundamental to these conversations Diane. I often sense that my objections to the irrefutable ignorance of the "energy" medicine crowd are met with a "tut, tut, you heartless monster" shake of the head."

                  At least this points a little to a particular position.

                  I think my last post might have already been after the point of diminishing returns. I will try to encapsulate my feelings on all this mfr controversy.

                  1) Scientific inquiry and the resultant knowledge derived are relevant from a particular viewpoint, insofar as they modify the approach of the conceptualizing entity.
                  2) This represents only a particular mental construct, not necessarily better or worse than another.
                  3) The factor determining the value of any mental construct should be its practical efficacy.
                  4) A pseudoscientific mental construct may be more time efficient from a pedagogic point of view, offering a comparable practical approach.
                  5) Strict adherance to any particular mental construct may offer the conceptualizing entity greater depth of focus into their particular approach, while containing the inherent danger of mutual exclusion and intellectual aristocracy.

                  That's about it my scientific friends, from my particular point of view ;-).

                  I have very mixed feelings about Mr. Barnes and for the time being, I have chosen not to continue studying with his group. But then, I actually went to a couple of his seminars, and none of you have (correct?). Your judgement of him and his system seems to be strictly based on assumption. That's not very scientific. I have no doubt that if you did attend the seminars, your feelings about jfb mfr would not change, but at least you'd have an experiential basis for your feelings.

                  I am grateful for the opportunity to expand my awareness of the stance of neuroscience and the field of manual therapy in general provided by this discussion. I will probably come away having gained more than any of you. Lucky me.

                  Cheers.

                  -Chris

                  Comment


                  • I actually went to a couple of his seminars, and none of you have (correct?)
                    Nope. Not correct. I went to two, one in 1988, and another in ... 2001 (I think) to see if I was missing anything. I wasn't. Very mickey mouse stuff 12 years later with a lot of thinking/reading/practicing having gone on in between. Very, very basic in the anatomy department, and downright pathetic, quacky even (as has already been amply deconstructed) in the proposed mechanism department. Absolutely NO neuro considerations. NONE.

                    My "evidence-based" opinion,
                    Diane
                    www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                    SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                    HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                    Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                    Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                    Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                    @PainPhysiosCan
                    WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                    @WCPTPTPN
                    Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                    @dfjpt
                    SomaSimple on Facebook
                    @somasimple

                    "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                    “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                    “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                    "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                    "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                    Comment


                    • Things develop at a pace when one is asleep, so I will try to catch up on the themes that are oozing through these posts.

                      Einstein is often misunderstood with his quotes.
                      In one of Barrett's threads "Imagination", it is quite clear that a good imagination is essential in order to develop on what is observed, and followed through with investigation.
                      It does not mean that we can imagine anything we like from baseline and fill it up with snippets from various sources, mostly unconnected, into a methodology and then teach it. The essence of science is to be proven wrong.
                      The essence of fringe imagination seems to be "I believe in what I imagine, and so should you".

                      That said, Chris, I am NOT implying this is how you think. I am thinking of the MFRers' rationale.

                      Your 5th point is true; and easily happens. When Maitland developed passive mobilisation of joints, it seemed so effective that everybody mobilised everything they could think of. Nobody knew why it worked; it was just accepted that it worked, and worked well.
                      Patients came into a clinic to have L5 mobilised for 3x10 (after assessment), lie prone with a hot pack for 15 minutes until it got cold, was given flexion or extension exercises (depending on the vogue at the time) and sent home.

                      This went on for years. The thing was, it was shown by investigation to be a better way to manage pain and dysfunction than electromodalities. We were "strictly adherent to a mental construct"....and had no idea of the role of the CNS in the 1980s.

                      It's different now.
                      Methodology needs to be based on what knowledge we do have of the CNS, brain, etc, because the role of the brain is much more clearly understood. If desired, or thought more appropriate, another method could be devised based on intuition; this intuition may simply be the therapist's imagination coupled with a desire to "help people".
                      The sky's the limit - the therapist could play Mozart and perform massages - patients would still improve. The therapist could also explain to patients that ligaments have been found to 'talk' to the joints, and a special method of talking to ligaments needs to be employed. Where the sky's the limit, patients still improve and are swept away with the brilliance of this therapist who talks to ligaments, and become dissatisfied with other therapists who do not.

                      Science assists in sorting out the cacophony of imaginations running wild.
                      I think we owe that to our patients; imaginative deception is not a fair way to help them in the long term, and our profession.

                      I do understand now where you are coming from, Chris.
                      But I am a cynical therapist who figures /believes/thinks that an awful lot of physical therapy practised today in various countries including my own, is ego-building, inefficient and costly.

                      That's my 4 cents.

                      Nari

                      Comment


                      • Diane,

                        "Nope. Not correct. I went to two, one in 1988, and another in ... 2001..."

                        I stand corrected.

                        Nari,

                        Thanks for the consideration. You said a lot in this last post. I will keep these points in mind.

                        I didn't come into this hoping to change anyone's mind. Only to discuss. If I am not open to what you guys have to say, then I would just be the pot calling the kettle black. I'm sure what I have learned here will affect how I think about my work. Cheers.

                        -Chris

                        Comment


                        • Wow, brilliant post Nari. You really put it into context. Thanks for that.
                          Diane
                          www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                          SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                          HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                          Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                          Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                          Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                          @PainPhysiosCan
                          WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                          @WCPTPTPN
                          Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                          @dfjpt
                          SomaSimple on Facebook
                          @somasimple

                          "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                          “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                          “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                          "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                          "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                          Comment


                          • Hi Christopher
                            Thanks for bringing your perspective. You may feel that you stand corrected for stating that no-one really knows what MFR is, but really just because Diane says she went to two MFR seminars to confirm what she had already decided was not useful does not mean that all other members of this site knows what they are talking about unless of course they are in such close contact that what one learns or thinks goes for everyone here. I suppose that would be easy on the continuing education budget. You state that MFR is indeed a useful intervention from your perspective, which I agree to both from a patient and from a therapy (as a PT) perspective and I have heard many times from the frequent flyers on this site (all 8 of them) that on that one point we are in agreement. At this point I just find it amusing that regulars here can continue to dispute with such vigor something that they admittedly feel is a useful intervention.
                            Since folks here are into quotes let me pose this one:” progress lies not in enhancing what is but in advancing towards what will be.” Kahlin Gibran
                            MFR -and many other interventions that are at this point by some looked at as "alternative" WILL BE eventually, wether or not they are scientifically proven at this juncture. From my perspective I can join now - or when science catches up - and my choice is clear. I for my part will do my very best to assist in moving interventions, that I know in my heart and mind are useful, forward. If I – and I can only speak for myself- am not using more time and energy here it is certainly not because my beliefs have changed or that my therapeutic interventions or the interventions I seek for myself have changed but it is merely because we are so far apart in our view on therapy that is serves no purpose to continue to go around in circles.
                            One more thing, Christopher, I do hope that you will attend Mr. Dorko’s seminar and tell us from your perspective how you think it differs from MFR unwinding. I am hoping to do the same thing in the name of open minds. I do not know about you, but I for my part enjoy learning so I can chose the interventions for me and for my patients that I feel are most useful.

                            Comment


                            • Hi again Pia,
                              From my perspective, it looks like you have the practice and the theory still all balled up together. I think the actual skin stretching is ok, but I think the stretchy-sweater theory with which it is saddled, is lame. Learning to differentiate kinesthetic perceptions from perceptual fantasy from scientifically impossible concepts is a good cognitive skill to gain.
                              Last edited by Diane; 16-02-2006, 04:04 AM.
                              Diane
                              www.dermoneuromodulation.com
                              SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
                              HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
                              Neurotonics PT Teamblog
                              Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
                              Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
                              @PainPhysiosCan
                              WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
                              @WCPTPTPN
                              Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

                              @dfjpt
                              SomaSimple on Facebook
                              @somasimple

                              "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

                              “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

                              “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

                              "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

                              "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

                              Comment


                              • Hi Pia,

                                You state

                                At this point I just find it amusing that regulars here can continue to dispute with such vigor something that they admittedly feel is a useful intervention.
                                I find your amusement disconcerting in a way. Do you suppose we dispute MFR's "scientific rationale" simply for amusement (even if it is indeed amusing)? Could we, as fellow PTs, have some other possible motivation? Think about it.
                                "I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

                                Comment

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