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  • Unplanned movement

    Barrett,

    Lately there have been some questions on consciousness, and sporadically through posts I have seen the term "i" illusion used. The essence of the "I" illusion is that the "me" that we presume we are is simply an arising in consciousness. "Me" claims autonomy and authorship of movement, thought, process. "I" moved my arm. "I" am thinking.
    Shifting the language to account for the "I" illusion, it would more properly be stated "thinking is happening", a sense of me is arising, movement happened.
    This begs the question about unplanned vs planned movement. If "I" is an illusion so is the distinction between planned and unplanned.
    Do you have any thoughts on this?

    Nathan

  • #2
    I am not Barrett but........

    A child below the age of 18 months is in a state of being with a me in the process of emerging, sometimes they have the beginnings of language and quite sophisticated levels of communication by means of movement, gesture, pointing and gaze.

    A hungry child sitting on a parent's lap is sometimes unsure into which mouth the food should go in order to mitigate hunger. If they have fallen and grazed themselves they sometimes investigate the equivalent area on the parent, many refer to themselves in the third person and some assume that the dog when out of the room, is cooking the dinner (if there are cooking smells) or upstairs reading a book. It takes time to piece together the world view construct as we see it.

    Reflex movement can be seen in someone scratching an itch, ideomotion in young children listening to a story and unplanned/instinctive movement in the forequarter of one in side lying who has been cued by touch from a therapist to drop the co contraction of shoulder, neck, chest and upper back muscles.

    Someone who experiences a non dual world view may still act and speak from an I perspective and turn up for treatment and management of complex pain. They tend to grok pain surfing quicker than those who whose entire modus operandi is from the I perspective.
    Last edited by Jo Bowyer; 24-07-2015, 06:26 PM.
    Jo Bowyer
    Chartered Physiotherapist Registered Osteopath.
    "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,there is a field. I'll meet you there." Rumi

    Comment


    • #3
      Jo,

      I can't argue with anything you said, but that doesn't, to me, clarify the distinction between planned and unplanned. Much of what Barrett talks about deals with catylizing unplanned movement. To your point you say, "for one who lives in a non-dual worl view...". There can't be a non-dual and dualistic worlds coexisting as possible experiences. Dualism is a misperception of non-dual. It presumes an autonomous entity that chooses/plans. While I agree that choosing and planning appear to happen, they are themselves spontaneously arising and are in effect unplanned and done by no "I". "I" is only a thought that tells a story about what is happening.

      Comment


      • #4
        Nathan,

        I have never met Barrett,

        My understanding (which may be mistaken) is that Barrett recognises that living bodies move and therefore the need to catalyze movement is redundant. Putting his hands on may alter expression of the movement that he calls ideomotion by downmodulating neural induced co contraction of muscle that prevents optimal expression of ideomotion.

        For those that live a non dual existance, duality is indeed a non sequiteur. Most humans above the age of two appear to segue between being and me ing. If I were to put the tips of my fingers together, look at them over the top of my glasses and say "Ah! so that is apparently what is happening..." when someone has told me their story, I might apparently find myself in front of a fitness to practice committee.
        Jo Bowyer
        Chartered Physiotherapist Registered Osteopath.
        "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,there is a field. I'll meet you there." Rumi

        Comment


        • #5
          Good question Nathan. It might be that the distinction between planned and unplanned movement has nothing to do with planning, but the timing of when intention is experienced. So when the experience of the movement and the intention occur relatively close together we get the illusion of planning like you said.

          Reflex movement can be seen in someone scratching an itch, ideomotion in young children listening to a story and unplanned/instinctive movement in the forequarter of one in side lying who has been cued by touch from a therapist to drop the co contraction of shoulder, neck, chest and upper back muscles.
          Jo, I'm not sure I would call that last example reflex movement. Could if be more accurate to call it an alteration of conditioned behavior?

          Comment


          • #6
            Mason,

            If it is an illusion of planning then the distinction between planned and unplanned becomes moot, does it not?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Mason View Post

              Jo, I'm not sure I would call that last example reflex movement. Could if be more accurate to call it an alteration of conditioned behavior?
              I wouldn't call anything but the scratching of the itch reflex movement, I obviously didn't express myself clearly. I understand ideomotion to be movement in response to thought or visualisation hence my example of children moving in response to a story. My last example of the patient moving in response to cueing isn't reflex either, when I wrote it I was thinking of a patient I saw this morning who responded to a touch cue by letting go co contraction after which his forequarter started to move, there was no verbal cue and I don't know whether or what he was thinking, which is why I prefer to call it unplanned/instinctive movement, rather than ideomotion. It would appear to be hindbrain mediated.

              I once gave an example here of finding myself in a side passage of the London Underground when my intention was to head for the stairs and meet my coach for a fencing lesson. A couple of police officers had walked up behind me and guided me by the elbows into the side passage because they thought that I had a gunslip over my shoulder. They were big guys and it was a surreal experience but totally painless, I could feel myself turning left when my intention was to walk straight ahead, I was cued by touch and my legs changed direction.
              Jo Bowyer
              Chartered Physiotherapist Registered Osteopath.
              "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,there is a field. I'll meet you there." Rumi

              Comment


              • #8
                Jo,

                Thanks for clarifying. I misread your sentence.

                Nathan,

                If it's an illusion then this blurs the line between the two. I don't know whether it's useful to think in terms of planned vs. unplanned movement. It's confusing to me trying to figure out where the lines are between reflex and instinctive movement, and between instinctive and voluntary movement. Maybe someone else has definitions that could shed light on this. I read somewhere that the difference between voluntary movements and reflexes is that the signals for voluntary movements come from the cerebral cortex and the signals for reflexes come from the periphery/sensory inputs.

                The way I currently see it, the motion described as ideomotor action falls in the voluntary movement category, even though it's perceived as unplanned.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The way I currently see it, the motion described as ideomotor action falls in the voluntary movement category, even though it's perceived as unplanned.
                  Fencers have movement drilled into them by coaches during many hours of practice and they watch each other for ideomotoric signals. A simple attack could happen as a reflex action as soon as the fencer is within distance to land the hit. I would know what some of my opponents were likely to do because they would make ideomotoric blade actions during their preparation which gave me time to plan my parry and possibly an indirect riposte. Younger fencers who were fast would launch a very fast direct counterattack on seeing the ideomotoric indication of the start of their opponents direct attack. The counter attack would land first and block the scoring light of the attacker.
                  Jo Bowyer
                  Chartered Physiotherapist Registered Osteopath.
                  "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,there is a field. I'll meet you there." Rumi

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The inner experience of time

                    http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.o.../364/1525/1955

                    Abstract

                    The striking diversity of psychological and neurophysiological models of ‘time perception’ characterizes the debate on how and where in the brain time is processed. In this review, the most prominent models of time perception will be critically discussed. Some of the variation across the proposed models will be explained, namely (i) different processes and regions of the brain are involved depending on the length of the processed time interval, and (ii) different cognitive processes may be involved that are not necessarily part of a core timekeeping system but, nevertheless, influence the experience of time. These cognitive processes are distributed over the brain and are difficult to discern from timing mechanisms. Recent developments in the research on emotional influences on time perception, which succeed decades of studies on the cognition of temporal processing, will be highlighted. Empirical findings on the relationship between affect and time, together with recent conceptualizations of self- and body processes, are integrated by viewing time perception as entailing emotional and interoceptive (within the body) states. To date, specific neurophysiological mechanisms that would account for the representation of human time have not been identified. It will be argued that neural processes in the insular cortex that are related to body signals and feeling states might constitute such a neurophysiological mechanism for the encoding of duration.
                    Jo Bowyer
                    Chartered Physiotherapist Registered Osteopath.
                    "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,there is a field. I'll meet you there." Rumi

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      This discussion is past me.

                      Phil Greenfield put this TED Talk on Facebook though.

                      I thought it was wonderful.
                      Barrett L. Dorko

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Anomalous control: when 'free-will' is not conscious.

                        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15336254

                        Abstract

                        The conscious feeling of exercising 'free-will' is fundamental to our sense of self. However, in some psychopathological conditions actions may be experienced as involuntary or unwilled. We have used suggestion in hypnosis to create the experience of involuntariness (anomalous control) in normal participants. We compared a voluntary finger movement, a passive movement and a voluntary movement suggested by hypnosis to be 'involuntary.' Hypnosis itself had no effect on the subjective experience of voluntariness associated with willed movements and passive movements or on time estimations of their occurrence. However, subjective time estimates of a hypnotically-suggested, 'involuntary' finger movement were more similar to those for passive movements than for voluntary movements. The experience of anomalous control is qualitatively and quantitatively different from the normal conscious experience of a similar act produced intentionally. The experience of anomalous control may be produced either by pathology, or, in our case, by suggestion.
                        Delusions of alien control in the normal brain.

                        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12667541

                        Abstract

                        Delusions of alien control, or passivity experiences, are symptoms associated with schizophrenia in which patients misattribute self-generated actions to an external source. In this study hypnosis was used to induce a similar misattribution of self-generated movement in normal, healthy individuals. Positron Emission Tomography (PET) was employed to investigate the neural correlates of active movements correctly attributed to the self, compared with identical active movements misattributed to an external source. Active movements attributed to an external source resulted in significantly higher activations in the parietal cortex and cerebellum than identical active movements correctly attributed to the self. We suggest that, as a result of hypnotic suggestion, the functioning of this cerebellar-parietal network is altered so that self-produced actions are experienced as being external. These results have implications for the brain mechanisms underlying delusions of control, which may be associated with overactivation of the cerebellar-parietal network.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I loved the TED talk too.

                          Probably because I love the taste of chocolate and haaate the feeling of velvet.

                          Yesterday, I treated an eleven year old boy. Out of the session, he was moving his arms, in an unplanned way.

                          I said: That's what I meant: do that. A lot. Is this making any sense?

                          Yes, he said.

                          What do I know?
                          Carol Lynn Chevrier LMT
                          " The truth is, people may see things differently. But they don't really want to. '' Don Draper.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
                            This discussion is past me.

                            Phil Greenfield put this TED Talk on Facebook though.

                            I thought it was wonderful.
                            I'm surprised to hear that.

                            There have also been studies that show cognition that attributes ownership of choice happens after the choice has been made. One of my interests in looking in to this is the notion that unplanned motion is corrective. To me, all motion is unplanned. Ownership is an illusion or afterthought. Perhaps goal-less motion is more appropriate?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              There have also been studies that show cognition that attributes ownership of choice happens after the choice has been made.
                              I agree with that premise. We like to think we have conscious control over what we say or do, but that is our perception, not the likely reality.

                              I think it was Richard Dawkins who stated some years ago that the state of consciousness is probably a myth. Cannot recall where he said it.

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