Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Ideomotion and sleep

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Barrett Dorko
    replied
    It's certainly true and demonstrable that we are a complex and multitude of relationships.

    Who are you?

    I understand that there be many reasons for not answering that last question. Glad you're here.

    Leave a comment:


  • Daisy258
    replied
    Excessive sleepiness not only affects your physical health, it has a big impact on your mental health as well. Understanding the relationship of sleep to food consumption, weight regulation and metabolism is very important.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jo Bowyer
    replied
    Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
    Is it possible to get rid of "telegraphing" our next move?
    The last time I cracked a neck after telling the Russian fencing coach on the table that he could die, have a stroke, or become a tetraplegic, I was able to perform the thrust without telegraphing it. I had years of practice.

    Why would those of us here wish to become masters of illusion when reality is so much more engaging?

    As a practioner I'm there as a tour guide to uncover that which the patient has yet to realise. As a fencer I'm there to get the right colour medal, as someone who is old, fat and slow, deception within the rules, is my best weapon.
    Last edited by Jo Bowyer; 30-01-2015, 05:48 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Barrett Dorko
    replied
    Is it possible to get rid of "telegraphing" our next move?

    Training ourselves will help. There are more ways of deceiving others than I can begin to count or decide to write about. Shouldn't therapists learn something about that?

    I'm reminded of the quote from Schopenhauer:

    We are free to do what we want, but we are not free to want what we want.
    There's also this line delivered by Joe Montegna in a David Mamet movie:

    The things we want, we can do them or not do them, but we can't hide them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jo Bowyer
    replied
    As an experienced fencer, I found it difficult not to signal my signature moves when outclassed. If my opponent was fitter and had control of the distance, they beat me.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jo Bowyer
    replied
    Originally posted by Diane View Post
    Maybe just the illusion of agency.. Didn't Libet show that the brain stem actually controls that as well? Something about by the time you are consciously aware of a choice you have decided on, your brain has already chosen that course by several milliseconds and has fast-forwarded instructions to the rostral centers where the "I" illusion operates..

    About movement, aren't rostral "executive" areas where we are aware of "thinking" mainly inhibitive to movement rather than productive of it?

    I learned about a new paper yesterday, about anterior cingulate cortex (which is old cortex/brain - all vertebrate creatures have it to some extent just as they do S1 and insular cortex..) which is connected to motor output. It looks for an escape route. In states of anxiety it is pretty active, also in pain states. A research team led by Min Zhuo (U. Toronto) who has been studying synaptic plasticity in ACC for years, figured out the connection.

    In the end, astrocytes control/integrate everything with their 250 million synaptic proteins in humans.. maybe they are the ghost in the machine.
    I would agree to a certain extent, the rostral centres inhibit and certainly modulate. Some of the pink cardi and pearls ladies who were reluctant to discuss anything situated between the clavicles and the knees when compos mentis, could behave very very inappropriately with the anaesthetist, when they were being woken up during my occasional visits to theatres.
    Last edited by Jo Bowyer; 30-01-2015, 04:32 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Barrett Dorko
    replied
    Reading the posts above I was reminded of a short essay I wrote in 2000.

    There's something in there relevant to what therapy has become.

    Leave a comment:


  • Diane
    replied
    the "ghost in the machine" which gives rise to agency.
    Maybe just the illusion of agency.. Didn't Libet show that the brain stem actually controls that as well? Something about by the time you are consciously aware of a choice you have decided on, your brain has already chosen that course by several milliseconds and has fast-forwarded instructions to the rostral centers where the "I" illusion operates..

    About movement, aren't rostral "executive" areas where we are aware of "thinking" mainly inhibitive to movement rather than productive of it?

    I learned about a new paper yesterday, about anterior cingulate cortex (which is old cortex/brain - all vertebrate creatures have it to some extent just as they do S1 and insular cortex..) which is connected to motor output. It looks for an escape route. In states of anxiety it is pretty active, also in pain states. A research team led by Min Zhuo (U. Toronto) who has been studying synaptic plasticity in ACC for years, figured out the connection.

    In the end, astrocytes control/integrate everything with their 250 million synaptic proteins in humans.. maybe they are the ghost in the machine.
    Last edited by Diane; 30-01-2015, 03:42 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jo Bowyer
    replied
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2708777/

    Decoupling of the brain's default mode network during deep sleep

    ABSTRACT
    The recent discovery of a circuit of brain regions that is highly active in the absence of overt behavior has led to a quest for revealing the possible function of this so-called default-mode network (DMN). A very recent study, finding similarities in awake humans and anesthetized primates, has suggested that DMN activity might not simply reflect ongoing conscious mentation but rather a more general form of network dynamics typical of complex systems. Here, by performing functional MRI in humans, it is shown that a natural, sleep-induced reduction of consciousness is reflected in altered correlation between DMN network components, most notably a reduced involvement of frontal cortex. This suggests that DMN may play an important role in the sustenance of conscious awareness.
    We have previously observed that frontal–posterior coherence in the DMN is still present in light sleep (8), and this result was recently replicated (15). In contrast, the present data indicate that during deep sleep, DMN integrity is compromised. Together, these results suggest that there is a reduction in frontoparietal correlations with increasing level (i.e., depth) of sleep, to the point of being significantly reduced at the deepest stages of sleep, when awakening threshold is the highest in humans. The differences in DMN integrity might be reflective of the reduced level of consciousness characteristic of deep sleep.
    Bear in mind that Barrett and I have a different take on this. As far as I know we both started working on it in the '70s, but in pre internet days and on different continents. I am heavily influenced by years of work with the so called "cranial rythmic impulse". The whole body "breathing" movement which takes a couple of minutes to wind down after death. It is likely that the brain stem continues to live for a short while after everything else stops.

    Barrett and I have a different take on ideomotion which I consider to be only part of the phenomenon and to be tied up with the "I thought"..... the "ghost in the machine" which gives rise to agency.

    Leave a comment:


  • mortene
    replied
    Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions Jo! If you don't mind, I have a couple more. (Give a man your hand, and he'll take the whole arm...)

    - How come ideomotion is unlikely during deep sleep?
    I remember reading about volition in one of Barrett's texts. And that ideomotion occurs without volition. Because of that I thought that these "instinctive" movements maybe occured more easily during deep sleep. And also since we're less influenced by culture? But this leads to my next question...

    - During deep sleep, are we "less aware" of afferent input? (Are there a difference between internal and external stimuli?)
    If so, is this some of the reason unplanned movement is unlikely to occur? I imagine that a stimuli has to be sampled, and somehow scrutinized, if unplanned movement is to be elicited, even though it's not volitional or a conscious decision?

    Leave a comment:


  • nykinvic
    replied
    I think the culture acts in mysterious ways. It's all around us, and no one escapes, for better or worse.
    Although we may not escape culture, we can examine how our cultural practices (ie using furniture or wearing heels) are meeting our needs or not and be intentional about those we choose to keep.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jo Bowyer
    replied
    Originally posted by mortene View Post

    Jo, when you say less movement during deeper sleep, does that include ideomotion? If it is, what's the reason for that? And do you have an idea concerning my question above? Thanks for your thoughts and inputs!
    Morten,

    I have a problem with the use of the word ideomotion as a catch all description of unplanned movement.

    Ideomotion can be seen as a "poker tell", during the telling of a deliberate lie, while framing the answer to a question, water divining, shadow fencing/boxing and when a skilled musician is on cruise control during a jam session. When other musicians join in, there is interaction some of which may be ideomotoric. If I have my hands on a patient the movement quickly becomes an interaction between the two of us, three, if there is a baby in the mix.

    Ideomotion can be seen in a patient that you are talking to and in patients that catch sight of you when you walk onto a ward or into a waiting room.

    Ideomotion is unlikely during deep sleep, but there is unplanned movement, even during deep sleep and coma which I first felt as a physio student, and learned to work with as an osteopath, as the so called "cranial rythmic impulse", a movement throughout the body similar to breathing, but slower and present throughout life until shortly after death.

    The "cranial rythmic impulse" type movement was incredibly useful on medical wards when the lobar pneumonias were transitioning from grey hepatisation to resolution, I found that it was possible to interfere with it hands on by extending the apparent expansion phase. Nowadays, these patients are rarely treated in hospital and I see them at home and in the clinic when the fever has settled.

    Very young infants express unplanned movement which is modulated by the primitive reflexes, a form of ideomotion begins to express at around three weeks when the baby starts to socialise.

    I first saw the vermiform type of movement seen in some of Barrett's clips when I watched Stuart Korth the British paediatric osteopath treating babies. It runs its course and gradually settles. Imo this is possibly an involuntary hindbrain movement based seeking behaviour which may be ideomotoric.

    It is often seen in the injured physiotherapists who attend toolbox courses because they are also hoping to find resolution of their own issues.



    If this is the question you wish me to address
    Two nights ago I woke up in the midle of the night. My girlfriend was moving, particularly her right leg. I observed it for a while, found it quite fascinating. I know she had been working a lot that day, went for a run, and also told me her legs felt totally dead before going to sleep.
    It is possible that your girlfriend was in REM sleep at the time you observed her and may have been dreaming, although she might not have remembered the dream the following morning. Dreamers often produce ideomotoric movement, some will produce words and/or sentences, a few will participate in conversations.

    I have known students who felt better the day after they had a dream about having treatment and an equal number who felt worse.

    The above is written with the disclaimer that it is impossible to know whether what I think I feel is palpatory pareidolia.

    Leave a comment:


  • mortene
    replied
    Originally posted by nari View Post
    I would agree with Christine about a firmer mattress, even a futon is worth trying, although they have gone out of fashion now.

    I wonder about sleepwalking and the trigger/s that provoke its occurrence. Any ideas?
    Nari, that's an interesting question! I wonder, since it's possible to sleepwalk, why we don't shift position but instead, sometimes wake up in pain (like Jo's example of satuday night palsey, or a sore/stiff back or neck).

    I have little knowledge about sleep, definetly something to delve deeper into.

    Originally posted by Jo Bowyer View Post
    There is less movement during deeper sleep states which can be difficult to distinguish from stupor and light coma. Think of Saturday Night Palsy, which is caused by falling into a drink induced sleep with the arm draped over the side of an arm chair. Ideomotion/unplanned movement is, by itself insufficient to cause the patient to shift pressure off the nerve. Reflex shifting is also likely to be diminished.
    Jo, when you say less movement during deeper sleep, does that include ideomotion? If it is, what's the reason for that? And do you have an idea concerning my question above? Thanks for your thoughts and inputs!

    Leave a comment:


  • mortene
    replied
    Originally posted by nykinvic View Post
    Morten, I'm still coming to an understanding of ideomotion so please take my comments in that context.

    I wonder how the cultural practice (in Canada anyway) of sleeping on 12 or more inches of dense foam changes the natural movement and position changes that occur when sleeping on a thin mat. By my understanding, as with 'ergonomic' chairs etc, our furniture use nurtures unnatural stillness to the detriment of oxygen delivery to the tissues. I encourage some clients who complain of morning stiffness to trial a thinner, firmer sleeping mat.

    Christine
    Good thought! I think the culture acts in mysterious ways. It's all around us, and no one escapes, for better or worse.

    It's a good thing to be aware of it's influence, I thank Barrett for that!

    Leave a comment:


  • nari
    replied
    I would agree with Christine about a firmer mattress, even a futon is worth trying, although they have gone out of fashion now.

    I wonder about sleepwalking and the trigger/s that provoke its occurrence. Any ideas?

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X