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Ideomotion and sleep

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  • #16
    I think the culture acts in mysterious ways. It's all around us, and no one escapes, for better or worse.
    Although we may not escape culture, we can examine how our cultural practices (ie using furniture or wearing heels) are meeting our needs or not and be intentional about those we choose to keep.
    Christine

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    • #17
      Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions Jo! If you don't mind, I have a couple more. (Give a man your hand, and he'll take the whole arm...)

      - How come ideomotion is unlikely during deep sleep?
      I remember reading about volition in one of Barrett's texts. And that ideomotion occurs without volition. Because of that I thought that these "instinctive" movements maybe occured more easily during deep sleep. And also since we're less influenced by culture? But this leads to my next question...

      - During deep sleep, are we "less aware" of afferent input? (Are there a difference between internal and external stimuli?)
      If so, is this some of the reason unplanned movement is unlikely to occur? I imagine that a stimuli has to be sampled, and somehow scrutinized, if unplanned movement is to be elicited, even though it's not volitional or a conscious decision?
      Morten

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      • #18
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2708777/

        Decoupling of the brain's default mode network during deep sleep

        ABSTRACT
        The recent discovery of a circuit of brain regions that is highly active in the absence of overt behavior has led to a quest for revealing the possible function of this so-called default-mode network (DMN). A very recent study, finding similarities in awake humans and anesthetized primates, has suggested that DMN activity might not simply reflect ongoing conscious mentation but rather a more general form of network dynamics typical of complex systems. Here, by performing functional MRI in humans, it is shown that a natural, sleep-induced reduction of consciousness is reflected in altered correlation between DMN network components, most notably a reduced involvement of frontal cortex. This suggests that DMN may play an important role in the sustenance of conscious awareness.
        We have previously observed that frontal–posterior coherence in the DMN is still present in light sleep (8), and this result was recently replicated (15). In contrast, the present data indicate that during deep sleep, DMN integrity is compromised. Together, these results suggest that there is a reduction in frontoparietal correlations with increasing level (i.e., depth) of sleep, to the point of being significantly reduced at the deepest stages of sleep, when awakening threshold is the highest in humans. The differences in DMN integrity might be reflective of the reduced level of consciousness characteristic of deep sleep.
        Bear in mind that Barrett and I have a different take on this. As far as I know we both started working on it in the '70s, but in pre internet days and on different continents. I am heavily influenced by years of work with the so called "cranial rythmic impulse". The whole body "breathing" movement which takes a couple of minutes to wind down after death. It is likely that the brain stem continues to live for a short while after everything else stops.

        Barrett and I have a different take on ideomotion which I consider to be only part of the phenomenon and to be tied up with the "I thought"..... the "ghost in the machine" which gives rise to agency.
        Jo Bowyer
        Chartered Physiotherapist Registered Osteopath.
        "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,there is a field. I'll meet you there." Rumi

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        • #19
          the "ghost in the machine" which gives rise to agency.
          Maybe just the illusion of agency.. Didn't Libet show that the brain stem actually controls that as well? Something about by the time you are consciously aware of a choice you have decided on, your brain has already chosen that course by several milliseconds and has fast-forwarded instructions to the rostral centers where the "I" illusion operates..

          About movement, aren't rostral "executive" areas where we are aware of "thinking" mainly inhibitive to movement rather than productive of it?

          I learned about a new paper yesterday, about anterior cingulate cortex (which is old cortex/brain - all vertebrate creatures have it to some extent just as they do S1 and insular cortex..) which is connected to motor output. It looks for an escape route. In states of anxiety it is pretty active, also in pain states. A research team led by Min Zhuo (U. Toronto) who has been studying synaptic plasticity in ACC for years, figured out the connection.

          In the end, astrocytes control/integrate everything with their 250 million synaptic proteins in humans.. maybe they are the ghost in the machine.
          Last edited by Diane; 30-01-2015, 02:42 PM.
          Diane
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          "Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

          “Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

          “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

          "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

          "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire

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          • #20
            Reading the posts above I was reminded of a short essay I wrote in 2000.

            There's something in there relevant to what therapy has become.
            Barrett L. Dorko

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Diane View Post
              Maybe just the illusion of agency.. Didn't Libet show that the brain stem actually controls that as well? Something about by the time you are consciously aware of a choice you have decided on, your brain has already chosen that course by several milliseconds and has fast-forwarded instructions to the rostral centers where the "I" illusion operates..

              About movement, aren't rostral "executive" areas where we are aware of "thinking" mainly inhibitive to movement rather than productive of it?

              I learned about a new paper yesterday, about anterior cingulate cortex (which is old cortex/brain - all vertebrate creatures have it to some extent just as they do S1 and insular cortex..) which is connected to motor output. It looks for an escape route. In states of anxiety it is pretty active, also in pain states. A research team led by Min Zhuo (U. Toronto) who has been studying synaptic plasticity in ACC for years, figured out the connection.

              In the end, astrocytes control/integrate everything with their 250 million synaptic proteins in humans.. maybe they are the ghost in the machine.
              I would agree to a certain extent, the rostral centres inhibit and certainly modulate. Some of the pink cardi and pearls ladies who were reluctant to discuss anything situated between the clavicles and the knees when compos mentis, could behave very very inappropriately with the anaesthetist, when they were being woken up during my occasional visits to theatres.
              Last edited by Jo Bowyer; 30-01-2015, 03:32 PM.
              Jo Bowyer
              Chartered Physiotherapist Registered Osteopath.
              "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,there is a field. I'll meet you there." Rumi

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              • #22
                As an experienced fencer, I found it difficult not to signal my signature moves when outclassed. If my opponent was fitter and had control of the distance, they beat me.
                Jo Bowyer
                Chartered Physiotherapist Registered Osteopath.
                "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,there is a field. I'll meet you there." Rumi

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                • #23
                  Is it possible to get rid of "telegraphing" our next move?

                  Training ourselves will help. There are more ways of deceiving others than I can begin to count or decide to write about. Shouldn't therapists learn something about that?

                  I'm reminded of the quote from Schopenhauer:

                  We are free to do what we want, but we are not free to want what we want.
                  There's also this line delivered by Joe Montegna in a David Mamet movie:

                  The things we want, we can do them or not do them, but we can't hide them.
                  Barrett L. Dorko

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
                    Is it possible to get rid of "telegraphing" our next move?
                    The last time I cracked a neck after telling the Russian fencing coach on the table that he could die, have a stroke, or become a tetraplegic, I was able to perform the thrust without telegraphing it. I had years of practice.

                    Why would those of us here wish to become masters of illusion when reality is so much more engaging?

                    As a practioner I'm there as a tour guide to uncover that which the patient has yet to realise. As a fencer I'm there to get the right colour medal, as someone who is old, fat and slow, deception within the rules, is my best weapon.
                    Last edited by Jo Bowyer; 30-01-2015, 04:48 PM.
                    Jo Bowyer
                    Chartered Physiotherapist Registered Osteopath.
                    "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,there is a field. I'll meet you there." Rumi

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                    • #25
                      Excessive sleepiness not only affects your physical health, it has a big impact on your mental health as well. Understanding the relationship of sleep to food consumption, weight regulation and metabolism is very important.

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                      • #26
                        It's certainly true and demonstrable that we are a complex and multitude of relationships.

                        Who are you?

                        I understand that there be many reasons for not answering that last question. Glad you're here.
                        Barrett L. Dorko

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