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Posted by Eric Matheson<script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,28,18,31,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> (Member # 2368) on 29-04-2005 01:31<noscript>April 28, 2005 06:31 PM</noscript>:
Probably a silly question, but I won't let that stop me. Why does shaking ones hands relieve the pins and needles and restore lost sensation seen with carpal tunnel syndrome? Restoration of blood flow? Reduced muscular tension? Why do we naturally use this strategy with this syndrome and not for other compressive type neuropathies?
Maybe a good daily dose of shaking all over would give us all a degree of relief from our aches and pains.
eric
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,28,19,42,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 29-04-2005 02:42<noscript>April 28, 2005 07:42 PM</noscript>:
Hi Eric
Shakin'all over, but in particular the limbs, gives the nerve roots a bit of movement therapy and probably improves axoplasmic and vascular flow - I don't know really, but I use it frequently for all sorts of neural symptoms, and particularly for those vague shoulder complaints and peripheral aches and pains. Patients seem to like it too, provided they do not get too gungho about it and shake themselves into some head and neck pain as well!
Nari
<hr> Posted by Chris Adams (Member # 3013) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,28,23,52,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 29-04-2005 06:52<noscript>April 28, 2005 11:52 PM</noscript>:
Eric,
This action of shaking hands makes good sense to me. In school, my partners and I did a study looking at neural tension associated with decreased elbow ROM and pain. We had our subjects perform 1 of 6 protocols that involved 'flossing' the elbow (a previous groups at our school looked at 'flossing' the wrist) joint into extension/flexion in a pain free range.
By shaking/flossing the hands, wrists, etc., one can theoretically 'floss' the nerve in its nerve bed in a longitudinal fashion...freeing up any potential neuropraxia that may be present. If no neuropraxia is present, we theorized that this action at least improved the anterograde and retrograde flow of axoplasm in the nervi nervorum through desensitization.
This may provide a more efficient flow of neurotransmitters/nutrients and potentially decrease the nociception present.
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,29,6,9,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 29-04-2005 13:09<noscript>April 29, 2005 06:09 AM</noscript>:
I'd agree with Chris' speculation regarding an appropriate mechanical and then chemical alteration in the nervous system. Some of you may be familiar with the late Milton Trager's work, "Mentastics and Psychophysical Exercise," which consisted largely of this shaking, often done by the therapist to the patient for 90 minutes. I attended a three day workshop many years ago and remember dancing around the room to Paul Simon's "Cicelia." As I recall, I looked great, but it's possible I'm wrong about that. Of course, the instructor, Betty Fuller, seemed to have absolutely no idea why any of this would help. I don't think Trager did either.
The problem with any active motion for pain relief lies in the limitations of our conscious choices. We simply aren't "smart" enough in this way to know best what to do though instinctively (unconsciously) we are. I tell my patients that it is as if they're lost in a forest and the trees are close around them. They want to get out but find that their conscious mind is unable to see the trees so they often whack right into them and feel worse. Shaking, it seems to me, is like blindly running through this forest and thus is quite risky. I say, "But the unconscious can see the trees and it knows how to move you past them. Trust it to lead you."
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,29,8,58,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 29-04-2005 15:58<noscript>April 29, 2005 08:58 AM</noscript>:
It probably came unconsciously bidden then..hmmn. I've noticed myself jiggling people a bit in the last few years, or just the bits of people I have my hands on, playing with different amplitudes.. it just started out as a feedback procedure for me, to see how loose they were becoming, but I realize I've ended up doing it to "gain" play as well. We're talking very tiny jiggles here, same scale as the microneurodynamics I apply to skin.
Learning to rely on the unconscious to do physical things makes sense from a Susan Blackmore perspective in her book the Meme Machine.. she carefully argues that there is no such thing as "self" or "conscious self", or conscious awarenss that makes decisions for action, that self consciousness is a perceptual illusion or fantasy, an "illusion of self", just a story our brain tells us for the sake of better overall function; that any "decision" we think we are making has been made already at the motor level with our so-called "conscious decision" following several microseconds later.
It also fits with Ramachandran's (I think it was his) work with a blind woman, tossing her a ball that she caught perfectly, demonstrating that some part of her brain, not the conscious part, could still see. Also with blind monkeys who could find their way around a new/unfamiliar pen without bumping into anything.
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,29,10,32,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 29-04-2005 17:32<noscript>April 29, 2005 10:32 AM</noscript>:
Diane,
I know, I've found myself doing the same the last few years. Are you sure we weren't separated at birth?
I think the key here is in the words "a bit." Too much of this runs some risks, whether done actively or passively. I agree that it's a "lesson" done rapidly for both patient and therapist, full of movement *between* the joints while at the same time perhaps producing some homuncular refreshment and leading to a reduction in fear.
And you're right as well that there's a "neuronal tape delay" between our our unconsciousness awareness of virtually anything and our conscious awareness of things including our own decisions to move. Researchers measure it at about 80 milliseconds, but for many this delay is, in effect, endless because they never learn of it. I call it "The Janet Jackson Effect."
Ha, ha.
<hr> Posted by Jon Newman (Member # 3148) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,29,21,10,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 30-04-2005 04:10<noscript>April 29, 2005 09:10 PM</noscript>:
I see the problem as putting non-conscious processes on hold while one gets exposed or introduced to many variables including those that really don't contribute to a solution. The more variables tried and considered the longer a non-consciously derived solution takes to become veridical. I don't think the unconscious is infallible and that it too "learns" but fewer unhelpful variables are considered thus leading to a quicker solution.
I have pondered, why people ever seek health care if the solution for a non-pathologic painful condition resides within them. The reason, I think, would be that those who see us are not blank slates. They have been exposed to numerous variables and have learned to distrust their instincts through mistakes they've made and through cultural influence.
I've found getting people to trust themselves is one of my hardest jobs. But if our culture can instill doubt and fear I can be part of the culture that undoes that. As far as I can tell, I won't run out of people to help very soon.
jon
<hr> Posted by Jon Newman (Member # 3148) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,30,7,17,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 30-04-2005 14:17<noscript>April 30, 2005 07:17 AM</noscript>:
I should add that I believe all decisions are ultimately made nonconsciously only to be consciously realized post-hoc (as stated by Diane and Barrett), hence the "putting on hold" reference in my previous post. "Rational" choices still require a non-rational/non-conscious mechanism for decision making.
For those who don't tune into noigroup here's a link I posted there
cdf
However, in the essay, while the following sentence is italicized
The reasons weigh themselves, and you are the choice-making process.
I would have italicized this part of the essay
The CDF is Mark's analysis of how choices are made, and it illustrates the principle that we make choices on the basis of weighted reasons, that is, on the basis of positive and negative factors that are rated according to their emotional significance - how strongly we feel about them.
jon
<hr> Posted by Jon Newman (Member # 3148) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,30,7,26,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 30-04-2005 14:26<noscript>April 30, 2005 07:26 AM</noscript>:
I might as well post this link too.
tyranny of choice
jon
<hr> Posted by Eric Matheson (Member # 2368) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,30,9,14,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 30-04-2005 16:14<noscript>April 30, 2005 09:14 AM</noscript>:
Gee, ask a silly question...thanks for all your answers. I was really interested in the physiological effect on the nerve that shaking might have. Is this any more efficient a means of recovery than say slower more controlled movements? It does seem to be the most natural thing to do when you wake up in the middle of the night and your can't feel your hand. Chris your description pretty much sums up what I had suspected too. To me this shows how much of a shot in the dark it can be when prescribing movement for symptom relief.
<hr> Posted by Jon Newman (Member # 3148) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,30,10,31,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 30-04-2005 17:31<noscript>April 30, 2005 10:31 AM</noscript>:
Hi Eric,
Sorry for veering off topic. I wonder if the hand is in a unique position, structually speaking, to be shaken thus its automatic employment. Contrast this with paraspinal pain--it would be quite difficult to "shake" this part of the body as its structure does not support that function. Attempting to do so may be overgeneralizing an otherwise useful response and would explain why people don't simply wake up and shake thier mid-sections if they have pain there at night.
jon
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,30,11,10,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 30-04-2005 18:10<noscript>April 30, 2005 11:10 AM</noscript>:
In Levine's "Waking the Tiger" he describes the carefully observed "shimmering" of the torso amongst a herd of animals following the disappearance of a perceived threat. This is a sort of ritualistic or even symbolic "escape behavior" commonly seen in the wild and is used to return the physiology to an appropriate state. Here we see again the strong connection between mechanical change and physiology that Shacklock makes so clear. I wrote "The Suppression of Flight" about this years ago after first reading Levine's work. It's on my site.
Aside from the structural and coordinative challenges there may be to our torso's movement, the accumulated effect of our culture's restriction on movement in the middle makes instinctive correction here especially difficult. As I always say, people sit in my lectures well beyond their personal level of comfort (often about ten minutes) yet they stay in order to appear "normal." I ask them, "What would any dog do?"
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,30,11,53,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 30-04-2005 18:53<noscript>April 30, 2005 11:53 AM</noscript>:
I think laughing counts as valid torso shaking/possible neuromodulatory pain relieving movement of paraspinals, plus abs and intercostals and diaphragm and pelvic floor and viscera and whatever else might have nocioceptors, or be going on nocioceptor wise in the trunk...
<hr> Posted by Jon Newman (Member # 3148) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,30,16,3,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 30-04-2005 23:03<noscript>April 30, 2005 04:03 PM</noscript>:
Hi Diane,
I seem to remember a literary reference to support that laughing/shaking connection.
jon
<hr> Posted by Jon Newman (Member # 3148) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,30,23,2,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 01-05-2005 06:02<noscript>April 30, 2005 11:02 PM</noscript>:
Here's a link that mentioned Arthur Koestler, creativity and humor and science so I figured it had to be worth posting
Science already IS art
And then I also read the following joke today that I found on this interesting blog
Three guys, stranded on a desert island, find a magic lantern containing a genie, who grants them each one wish. The first guy wishes he was off the island and back home. The second guy wishes the same. The third guy says "I'm lonely. I wish my friends were back here."
How's that bowlful of jelly?
jon
Probably a silly question, but I won't let that stop me. Why does shaking ones hands relieve the pins and needles and restore lost sensation seen with carpal tunnel syndrome? Restoration of blood flow? Reduced muscular tension? Why do we naturally use this strategy with this syndrome and not for other compressive type neuropathies?
Maybe a good daily dose of shaking all over would give us all a degree of relief from our aches and pains.
eric
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,28,19,42,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 29-04-2005 02:42<noscript>April 28, 2005 07:42 PM</noscript>:
Hi Eric
Shakin'all over, but in particular the limbs, gives the nerve roots a bit of movement therapy and probably improves axoplasmic and vascular flow - I don't know really, but I use it frequently for all sorts of neural symptoms, and particularly for those vague shoulder complaints and peripheral aches and pains. Patients seem to like it too, provided they do not get too gungho about it and shake themselves into some head and neck pain as well!
Nari
<hr> Posted by Chris Adams (Member # 3013) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,28,23,52,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 29-04-2005 06:52<noscript>April 28, 2005 11:52 PM</noscript>:
Eric,
This action of shaking hands makes good sense to me. In school, my partners and I did a study looking at neural tension associated with decreased elbow ROM and pain. We had our subjects perform 1 of 6 protocols that involved 'flossing' the elbow (a previous groups at our school looked at 'flossing' the wrist) joint into extension/flexion in a pain free range.
By shaking/flossing the hands, wrists, etc., one can theoretically 'floss' the nerve in its nerve bed in a longitudinal fashion...freeing up any potential neuropraxia that may be present. If no neuropraxia is present, we theorized that this action at least improved the anterograde and retrograde flow of axoplasm in the nervi nervorum through desensitization.
This may provide a more efficient flow of neurotransmitters/nutrients and potentially decrease the nociception present.
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,29,6,9,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 29-04-2005 13:09<noscript>April 29, 2005 06:09 AM</noscript>:
I'd agree with Chris' speculation regarding an appropriate mechanical and then chemical alteration in the nervous system. Some of you may be familiar with the late Milton Trager's work, "Mentastics and Psychophysical Exercise," which consisted largely of this shaking, often done by the therapist to the patient for 90 minutes. I attended a three day workshop many years ago and remember dancing around the room to Paul Simon's "Cicelia." As I recall, I looked great, but it's possible I'm wrong about that. Of course, the instructor, Betty Fuller, seemed to have absolutely no idea why any of this would help. I don't think Trager did either.
The problem with any active motion for pain relief lies in the limitations of our conscious choices. We simply aren't "smart" enough in this way to know best what to do though instinctively (unconsciously) we are. I tell my patients that it is as if they're lost in a forest and the trees are close around them. They want to get out but find that their conscious mind is unable to see the trees so they often whack right into them and feel worse. Shaking, it seems to me, is like blindly running through this forest and thus is quite risky. I say, "But the unconscious can see the trees and it knows how to move you past them. Trust it to lead you."
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,29,8,58,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 29-04-2005 15:58<noscript>April 29, 2005 08:58 AM</noscript>:
It probably came unconsciously bidden then..hmmn. I've noticed myself jiggling people a bit in the last few years, or just the bits of people I have my hands on, playing with different amplitudes.. it just started out as a feedback procedure for me, to see how loose they were becoming, but I realize I've ended up doing it to "gain" play as well. We're talking very tiny jiggles here, same scale as the microneurodynamics I apply to skin.
Learning to rely on the unconscious to do physical things makes sense from a Susan Blackmore perspective in her book the Meme Machine.. she carefully argues that there is no such thing as "self" or "conscious self", or conscious awarenss that makes decisions for action, that self consciousness is a perceptual illusion or fantasy, an "illusion of self", just a story our brain tells us for the sake of better overall function; that any "decision" we think we are making has been made already at the motor level with our so-called "conscious decision" following several microseconds later.
It also fits with Ramachandran's (I think it was his) work with a blind woman, tossing her a ball that she caught perfectly, demonstrating that some part of her brain, not the conscious part, could still see. Also with blind monkeys who could find their way around a new/unfamiliar pen without bumping into anything.
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,29,10,32,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 29-04-2005 17:32<noscript>April 29, 2005 10:32 AM</noscript>:
Diane,
I know, I've found myself doing the same the last few years. Are you sure we weren't separated at birth?
I think the key here is in the words "a bit." Too much of this runs some risks, whether done actively or passively. I agree that it's a "lesson" done rapidly for both patient and therapist, full of movement *between* the joints while at the same time perhaps producing some homuncular refreshment and leading to a reduction in fear.
And you're right as well that there's a "neuronal tape delay" between our our unconsciousness awareness of virtually anything and our conscious awareness of things including our own decisions to move. Researchers measure it at about 80 milliseconds, but for many this delay is, in effect, endless because they never learn of it. I call it "The Janet Jackson Effect."
Ha, ha.
<hr> Posted by Jon Newman (Member # 3148) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,29,21,10,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 30-04-2005 04:10<noscript>April 29, 2005 09:10 PM</noscript>:
I see the problem as putting non-conscious processes on hold while one gets exposed or introduced to many variables including those that really don't contribute to a solution. The more variables tried and considered the longer a non-consciously derived solution takes to become veridical. I don't think the unconscious is infallible and that it too "learns" but fewer unhelpful variables are considered thus leading to a quicker solution.
I have pondered, why people ever seek health care if the solution for a non-pathologic painful condition resides within them. The reason, I think, would be that those who see us are not blank slates. They have been exposed to numerous variables and have learned to distrust their instincts through mistakes they've made and through cultural influence.
I've found getting people to trust themselves is one of my hardest jobs. But if our culture can instill doubt and fear I can be part of the culture that undoes that. As far as I can tell, I won't run out of people to help very soon.
jon
<hr> Posted by Jon Newman (Member # 3148) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,30,7,17,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 30-04-2005 14:17<noscript>April 30, 2005 07:17 AM</noscript>:
I should add that I believe all decisions are ultimately made nonconsciously only to be consciously realized post-hoc (as stated by Diane and Barrett), hence the "putting on hold" reference in my previous post. "Rational" choices still require a non-rational/non-conscious mechanism for decision making.
For those who don't tune into noigroup here's a link I posted there
cdf
However, in the essay, while the following sentence is italicized
The reasons weigh themselves, and you are the choice-making process.
I would have italicized this part of the essay
The CDF is Mark's analysis of how choices are made, and it illustrates the principle that we make choices on the basis of weighted reasons, that is, on the basis of positive and negative factors that are rated according to their emotional significance - how strongly we feel about them.
jon
<hr> Posted by Jon Newman (Member # 3148) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,30,7,26,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 30-04-2005 14:26<noscript>April 30, 2005 07:26 AM</noscript>:
I might as well post this link too.
tyranny of choice
jon
<hr> Posted by Eric Matheson (Member # 2368) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,30,9,14,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 30-04-2005 16:14<noscript>April 30, 2005 09:14 AM</noscript>:
Gee, ask a silly question...thanks for all your answers. I was really interested in the physiological effect on the nerve that shaking might have. Is this any more efficient a means of recovery than say slower more controlled movements? It does seem to be the most natural thing to do when you wake up in the middle of the night and your can't feel your hand. Chris your description pretty much sums up what I had suspected too. To me this shows how much of a shot in the dark it can be when prescribing movement for symptom relief.
<hr> Posted by Jon Newman (Member # 3148) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,30,10,31,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 30-04-2005 17:31<noscript>April 30, 2005 10:31 AM</noscript>:
Hi Eric,
Sorry for veering off topic. I wonder if the hand is in a unique position, structually speaking, to be shaken thus its automatic employment. Contrast this with paraspinal pain--it would be quite difficult to "shake" this part of the body as its structure does not support that function. Attempting to do so may be overgeneralizing an otherwise useful response and would explain why people don't simply wake up and shake thier mid-sections if they have pain there at night.
jon
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,30,11,10,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 30-04-2005 18:10<noscript>April 30, 2005 11:10 AM</noscript>:
In Levine's "Waking the Tiger" he describes the carefully observed "shimmering" of the torso amongst a herd of animals following the disappearance of a perceived threat. This is a sort of ritualistic or even symbolic "escape behavior" commonly seen in the wild and is used to return the physiology to an appropriate state. Here we see again the strong connection between mechanical change and physiology that Shacklock makes so clear. I wrote "The Suppression of Flight" about this years ago after first reading Levine's work. It's on my site.
Aside from the structural and coordinative challenges there may be to our torso's movement, the accumulated effect of our culture's restriction on movement in the middle makes instinctive correction here especially difficult. As I always say, people sit in my lectures well beyond their personal level of comfort (often about ten minutes) yet they stay in order to appear "normal." I ask them, "What would any dog do?"
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,30,11,53,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 30-04-2005 18:53<noscript>April 30, 2005 11:53 AM</noscript>:
I think laughing counts as valid torso shaking/possible neuromodulatory pain relieving movement of paraspinals, plus abs and intercostals and diaphragm and pelvic floor and viscera and whatever else might have nocioceptors, or be going on nocioceptor wise in the trunk...
quote: <hr> Are you sure we weren't separated at birth? <hr>
My mother has never mentioned it, but I'll ask her next time I talk to her.. <hr> Posted by Jon Newman (Member # 3148) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,30,16,3,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 30-04-2005 23:03<noscript>April 30, 2005 04:03 PM</noscript>:
Hi Diane,
I seem to remember a literary reference to support that laughing/shaking connection.
quote: <hr> He had a broad face and a little round belly,
That shook, when he laughed like a bowlful of jelly.
<hr>
From Twas the night before christmas by Clement Clarke Moore.That shook, when he laughed like a bowlful of jelly.
<hr>
jon
<hr> Posted by Jon Newman (Member # 3148) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,3,30,23,2,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 01-05-2005 06:02<noscript>April 30, 2005 11:02 PM</noscript>:
Here's a link that mentioned Arthur Koestler, creativity and humor and science so I figured it had to be worth posting
Science already IS art
And then I also read the following joke today that I found on this interesting blog
Three guys, stranded on a desert island, find a magic lantern containing a genie, who grants them each one wish. The first guy wishes he was off the island and back home. The second guy wishes the same. The third guy says "I'm lonely. I wish my friends were back here."
How's that bowlful of jelly?
jon