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Posted by Randy Dixon<script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,19,1,52,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> (Member # 3445) on 19-08-2005 08:52<noscript>August 19, 2005 01:52 AM</noscript>:
To get away from all this theoretical and metaphysical stuff for awhile into some hard science, has anyone watched Cris Angel?:Mindfreak.
He's a street type magician, but a lot of what he does he says is psychological. Anyway, I watched it the other night and he performed what he referred to as Hellstromism, which seems to consist of reading people's unconscious bodily reactions. He had to find a pair of car keys in a 4 acre lot of cars by leading the guy who had hid them around by a handkerchief. They didn't talk and the guy didn't want him to find them, if he found them he got the car, but he did. It was pretty impressive.
I figured Barrett would have some idea about Hellstromism and how it relates to ideomotor movement.
Do you think you could do the same Barrett? It was a really nice car, a Viper.
<hr> Posted by Jon Newman (Member # 3148) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,19,5,56,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-08-2005 12:56<noscript>August 19, 2005 05:56 AM</noscript>:
Hi Randy,
They cover this topic in Herman Spitz's book, Nonconscious Movements only they don't call it Hellstomism. In the past they have called this "muscle reading" or "body reading" and it is fully explained by a person being sensitive to ideomotor movement. Not very mystical but truly impressive none the less.
jon
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,19,6,54,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-08-2005 13:54<noscript>August 19, 2005 06:54 AM</noscript>:
Jon's right. The Amazing Kreskin (some may be too young to remember him) describes this in one of his books. Specifically, he'd ask one of the organizers of his "mind reading" show to hide his check somewhere in the auditorium. If he couldn't find it they didn't have to pay him.
He'd put his hand on the arm of the one who hid the check and they would lead him to it.
This is why poker players don't let their opponents touch them-it reveals way too much.
Our patients expect us to touch them and if we do that without coercion or judgment in mind they aren't going to hide what they want to do. This is what makes my work so easy.
I don't watch Cris Angel. Too creepy for me.
<hr> Posted by Jason Silvernail (Member # 4433) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,19,10,36,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-08-2005 17:36<noscript>August 19, 2005 10:36 AM</noscript>:
I agree about the Ideomotor action.
We learn to feel this in jui-jitsu all the time. In fact, I think probably that's what counts more so than experience, the ability to feel and read that sort of movement in your opponent.
Better strategies for teaching people to read and feel this motion I think would help people progress more quickly in their skill - both as manual care providers and as grapplers.
Barrett- ever wrestle? Feeling and using ideomotor activity is what it's all about.
[IMG]smile.gif[/IMG]
J
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,19,11,9,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-08-2005 18:09<noscript>August 19, 2005 11:09 AM</noscript>:
No. Marching band.
I walk through crowded airports past thousands of people all the time though and almost never touch anyone, and they manage to avoid me as well. Half of them are on the phone at the same time. How do you suppose we accomplish this?
<hr> Posted by Mike T. (Member # 4226) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,19,12,53,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-08-2005 19:53<noscript>August 19, 2005 12:53 PM</noscript>:
If Barrett, Kreskin, and Cris Angel all possess the ability to sense ideomotor movement and even interpret it, is this a learned ability or is there a natural predisposition to "reading" ideomotor movement?
mike t
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,19,14,13,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-08-2005 21:13<noscript>August 19, 2005 02:13 PM</noscript>:
Yes Mike, that's it. I was magically born being able to do this. I often wonder why I even try to teach others anything about it.
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,19,17,17,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 20-08-2005 00:17<noscript>August 19, 2005 05:17 PM</noscript>:
However, an innate ability seems so natural to the owner that there must be a constant temptation to teach others that it is worth the effort to 'learn'it. Right, Barrett?
Managing crowded airports and streets is definitely a learned skill. When I lived in a large city I became quite adept at instinctively avoiding collisions; after 34 years in a small city - no chance. It becomes a conscious effort now... or maybe it's age....
Nari
<hr> Posted by Randy Dixon (Member # 3445) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,19,17,37,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 20-08-2005 00:37<noscript>August 19, 2005 05:37 PM</noscript>:
I've often wondered why we sometimes get those miscues that cause us and the person we mean to avoid to both zig when one of us should have zagged. As it gets close and I realize something is wrong my brain starts looking for cues and there is a minor panic when it doesn't get them. I'm not sure what those cues are though, the eyes are part of it, but I suppose we look at weight shifts and body language more.
Jason,
The are establishing an Olympic Development organization for Judo where I live, or nearby in Brownsville. It looks like my wife will get to coach there, Sandan in Judo. So I'll get to hang around and get beat up.
<hr> Posted by Luke R (Member # 3561) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,20,2,52,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 20-08-2005 09:52<noscript>August 20, 2005 02:52 AM</noscript>:
Randy,
I've been experimenting with that one for years and I've found that the best way to avoid it is be the 'rude' one and give the obvious cue that you will keep walking straight. Though I always zag for elderly people (who won't zag as quick as you), children (who often aren't even aware you are heading towards them) and big burly blokes (because I'm puny).
Luke
<hr> Posted by Eric Matheson (Member # 2368) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,20,8,29,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 20-08-2005 15:29<noscript>August 20, 2005 08:29 AM</noscript>:
Luke, you will find that in N. America, people will more often than not zag to the right, compared to you lot in the South who zig left. I 'ran in' to this problem many times while negotiating hallways and staircases during my stay in NZ. I was able to learn and correct my mistake, but it was hard work and created my fair share of embarassing situations.
eric
<hr> Posted by Luke R (Member # 3561) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,20,20,57,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 21-08-2005 03:57<noscript>August 20, 2005 08:57 PM</noscript>:
Eric,
Wow that's true. I do usually zig left.
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,20,20,59,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 21-08-2005 03:59<noscript>August 20, 2005 08:59 PM</noscript>:
Luke, in September I'm going to have to give both you and Nari a wide berth.
[IMG]smile.gif[/IMG]
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,20,21,26,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 21-08-2005 04:26<noscript>August 20, 2005 09:26 PM</noscript>:
True, I zig to the left, so the ones I tend to collide with must be North Americans...
However, as another possible irrelevant off side, it has been revealed by those who do such esoteric studies, that when someone walks into a department store, they always veer to the right.
Hence the stores tend to put their high demand stock on the right of the entrance.
But maybe the studies were all done in the Northern Hemisphere....
Coriolis effect?
Nari
<hr> Posted by Randy Dixon (Member # 3445) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,21,12,42,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 21-08-2005 19:42<noscript>August 21, 2005 12:42 PM</noscript>:
I'g guess driving effect. Aussies drive on the wrong side of the road. Probably as a result of being upside down.
In the malls, their milling teenagers probably follow the same pattern.
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,21,15,57,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 21-08-2005 22:57<noscript>August 21, 2005 03:57 PM</noscript>:
Most of South America is upside down - yet they drive on the right. So being Antipodean isn't the entire answer...but we're used to being considered a bit funny. Must be the effects of all those Northern Hemisphere convicts.
Speaking of left and right...and this is maybe worth a separate thread; why do so many people confuse left and right sides? Persistent pain patients tend to, but so do others.
Why is this so? I have a few ideas but what do others think?
Nari
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,21,16,1,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 21-08-2005 23:01<noscript>August 21, 2005 04:01 PM</noscript>:
<hr> Posted by Jason Silvernail (Member # 4433) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,22,10,4,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 22-08-2005 17:04<noscript>August 22, 2005 10:04 AM</noscript>:
Randy-
Keep your chin tucked, brother.
I do think there is an art to feeling this type of movement (at least to speak of it's sporting use, I can't quite get it for manual care yet).
It's funny, but the same things that Barrett says about feeling it in patients also work for feeling it in your opponent:
1. Touch softly
2. Relax
3. Be patient
4. Don't try to lead them anywhere, just go with their motion
So, I can definitely see the connection there. Perhaps this is all the same type of movement we are talking about?
J
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,22,11,5,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 22-08-2005 18:05<noscript>August 22, 2005 11:05 AM</noscript>:
Yes, it is. The differencr lies in its intent, not its origin.
Ideomotion has two purposes-to express us (like what we are intending to do) and to make us comfortable (like shifting in the chair toward comfort). Simple Contact allows the amplification of that second reason by identifying the cultural restrictions and encouraging fuller, naturally occurring expression. Children do it all the time. I'm researching Fred Rogers, as in Mister Roger's Neighborhood, and found this quote from him:
"The child is in me still…and sometimes not so still."
I think he understood.
<hr> Posted by Mike T. (Member # 4226) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,22,11,52,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 22-08-2005 18:52<noscript>August 22, 2005 11:52 AM</noscript>:
I'm not trying to say that some people are incapable of SC or that it is a genetic trait, just that others might be inherently better at it.
mike t
<hr> Posted by Gil Haight (Member # 691) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,22,13,34,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 22-08-2005 20:34<noscript>August 22, 2005 01:34 PM</noscript>:
The ability to be able to elicit and promote SC has more to do with an appreciation of its existance rather than some innate talent or capacity ( "The Vase" -Barrett) . Remember, by definition SC is a form of communication. It is something that goes on between people. The principles that apply to any good communication apply here.
Perhaps the most neccessary quality is one which is grounded in the simple idea that the system is self sensing and self correcting. It ( the system) doesn't need help, it needs attention. If one feels patients need correction or fixing, I can't imagine how any of this could make sense.
Gil
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,22,16,12,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 22-08-2005 23:12<noscript>August 22, 2005 04:12 PM</noscript>:
Gil
Good post.
Quote: "it (the system) doesn't need help, it needs attention"..
The subtle difference in meaning between 'help' and 'attention' is precisely what I think SC is about...and precisely what bothers PTs as to their 'role' in patient contact.
Although, I must admit, I am not happy with the title of 'Simple Contact'...although I have no suggestions of an alternative name....
Nari
<hr> Posted by Mike T. (Member # 4226) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,23,8,48,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 23-08-2005 15:48<noscript>August 23, 2005 08:48 AM</noscript>:
Gil,
Good point and well said.
mike t
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,23,10,59,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 23-08-2005 17:59<noscript>August 23, 2005 10:59 AM</noscript>:
Yes, Gil's point is one I make continually. To put it another way: If we saw the body as it actually exists (given what research has demonstrated the past few years), and then watched traditional care taking place for nonpathologic painful problems, we'd have to wonder why on earth things were being done in this way.
As we study, our appreciation for the subtle and fagile nature of self-correction grows. The trick is to study-after that, technique takes care of itself.
<hr> Posted by Gil Haight (Member # 691) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,23,12,42,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 23-08-2005 19:42<noscript>August 23, 2005 12:42 PM</noscript>:
Nari & MIke,
Thanks.
However,I am wondering Nari, what's wrong with the term Simple Contact? It is what the therapist does and aren't we limited to that aspect of treatment as we try to describe any manual therapy?
Gil
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,23,16,34,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 23-08-2005 23:34<noscript>August 23, 2005 04:34 PM</noscript>:
Gil, it is not a criticism, just a comment. For someone totally unfamiliar with the concept, it suggests a kind of tactile or verbal contact. Reiki practitioners could refer to their intervention as 'simple contact', for instance.
I was just being a bit semantical....
Nari
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,23,18,52,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 24-08-2005 01:52<noscript>August 23, 2005 06:52 PM</noscript>:
Nari,
It is a tactile or verbal contact.
From my power point presentation:
Simple Contact
A technique of communication, either verbal or manual, designed to make another aware of their already ongoing processes and encourage their expression
Simple Contact does not move others. When used manually, it just deforms the skin
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,23,20,53,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 24-08-2005 03:53<noscript>August 23, 2005 08:53 PM</noscript>:
Thanks Barrett
I did understand that SC does not move others; and that it is manual therapy. I expect more will fall into place at the course...
Nari
To get away from all this theoretical and metaphysical stuff for awhile into some hard science, has anyone watched Cris Angel?:Mindfreak.
He's a street type magician, but a lot of what he does he says is psychological. Anyway, I watched it the other night and he performed what he referred to as Hellstromism, which seems to consist of reading people's unconscious bodily reactions. He had to find a pair of car keys in a 4 acre lot of cars by leading the guy who had hid them around by a handkerchief. They didn't talk and the guy didn't want him to find them, if he found them he got the car, but he did. It was pretty impressive.
I figured Barrett would have some idea about Hellstromism and how it relates to ideomotor movement.
Do you think you could do the same Barrett? It was a really nice car, a Viper.
<hr> Posted by Jon Newman (Member # 3148) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,19,5,56,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-08-2005 12:56<noscript>August 19, 2005 05:56 AM</noscript>:
Hi Randy,
They cover this topic in Herman Spitz's book, Nonconscious Movements only they don't call it Hellstomism. In the past they have called this "muscle reading" or "body reading" and it is fully explained by a person being sensitive to ideomotor movement. Not very mystical but truly impressive none the less.
jon
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,19,6,54,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-08-2005 13:54<noscript>August 19, 2005 06:54 AM</noscript>:
Jon's right. The Amazing Kreskin (some may be too young to remember him) describes this in one of his books. Specifically, he'd ask one of the organizers of his "mind reading" show to hide his check somewhere in the auditorium. If he couldn't find it they didn't have to pay him.
He'd put his hand on the arm of the one who hid the check and they would lead him to it.
This is why poker players don't let their opponents touch them-it reveals way too much.
Our patients expect us to touch them and if we do that without coercion or judgment in mind they aren't going to hide what they want to do. This is what makes my work so easy.
I don't watch Cris Angel. Too creepy for me.
<hr> Posted by Jason Silvernail (Member # 4433) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,19,10,36,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-08-2005 17:36<noscript>August 19, 2005 10:36 AM</noscript>:
I agree about the Ideomotor action.
We learn to feel this in jui-jitsu all the time. In fact, I think probably that's what counts more so than experience, the ability to feel and read that sort of movement in your opponent.
Better strategies for teaching people to read and feel this motion I think would help people progress more quickly in their skill - both as manual care providers and as grapplers.
Barrett- ever wrestle? Feeling and using ideomotor activity is what it's all about.
[IMG]smile.gif[/IMG]
J
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,19,11,9,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-08-2005 18:09<noscript>August 19, 2005 11:09 AM</noscript>:
No. Marching band.
I walk through crowded airports past thousands of people all the time though and almost never touch anyone, and they manage to avoid me as well. Half of them are on the phone at the same time. How do you suppose we accomplish this?
<hr> Posted by Mike T. (Member # 4226) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,19,12,53,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-08-2005 19:53<noscript>August 19, 2005 12:53 PM</noscript>:
If Barrett, Kreskin, and Cris Angel all possess the ability to sense ideomotor movement and even interpret it, is this a learned ability or is there a natural predisposition to "reading" ideomotor movement?
mike t
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,19,14,13,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-08-2005 21:13<noscript>August 19, 2005 02:13 PM</noscript>:
Yes Mike, that's it. I was magically born being able to do this. I often wonder why I even try to teach others anything about it.
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,19,17,17,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 20-08-2005 00:17<noscript>August 19, 2005 05:17 PM</noscript>:
However, an innate ability seems so natural to the owner that there must be a constant temptation to teach others that it is worth the effort to 'learn'it. Right, Barrett?
Managing crowded airports and streets is definitely a learned skill. When I lived in a large city I became quite adept at instinctively avoiding collisions; after 34 years in a small city - no chance. It becomes a conscious effort now... or maybe it's age....
Nari
<hr> Posted by Randy Dixon (Member # 3445) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,19,17,37,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 20-08-2005 00:37<noscript>August 19, 2005 05:37 PM</noscript>:
I've often wondered why we sometimes get those miscues that cause us and the person we mean to avoid to both zig when one of us should have zagged. As it gets close and I realize something is wrong my brain starts looking for cues and there is a minor panic when it doesn't get them. I'm not sure what those cues are though, the eyes are part of it, but I suppose we look at weight shifts and body language more.
Jason,
The are establishing an Olympic Development organization for Judo where I live, or nearby in Brownsville. It looks like my wife will get to coach there, Sandan in Judo. So I'll get to hang around and get beat up.
<hr> Posted by Luke R (Member # 3561) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,20,2,52,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 20-08-2005 09:52<noscript>August 20, 2005 02:52 AM</noscript>:
Randy,
I've been experimenting with that one for years and I've found that the best way to avoid it is be the 'rude' one and give the obvious cue that you will keep walking straight. Though I always zag for elderly people (who won't zag as quick as you), children (who often aren't even aware you are heading towards them) and big burly blokes (because I'm puny).
Luke
<hr> Posted by Eric Matheson (Member # 2368) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,20,8,29,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 20-08-2005 15:29<noscript>August 20, 2005 08:29 AM</noscript>:
Luke, you will find that in N. America, people will more often than not zag to the right, compared to you lot in the South who zig left. I 'ran in' to this problem many times while negotiating hallways and staircases during my stay in NZ. I was able to learn and correct my mistake, but it was hard work and created my fair share of embarassing situations.
eric
<hr> Posted by Luke R (Member # 3561) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,20,20,57,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 21-08-2005 03:57<noscript>August 20, 2005 08:57 PM</noscript>:
Eric,
Wow that's true. I do usually zig left.
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,20,20,59,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 21-08-2005 03:59<noscript>August 20, 2005 08:59 PM</noscript>:
Luke, in September I'm going to have to give both you and Nari a wide berth.
[IMG]smile.gif[/IMG]
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,20,21,26,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 21-08-2005 04:26<noscript>August 20, 2005 09:26 PM</noscript>:
True, I zig to the left, so the ones I tend to collide with must be North Americans...
However, as another possible irrelevant off side, it has been revealed by those who do such esoteric studies, that when someone walks into a department store, they always veer to the right.
Hence the stores tend to put their high demand stock on the right of the entrance.
But maybe the studies were all done in the Northern Hemisphere....
Coriolis effect?
Nari
<hr> Posted by Randy Dixon (Member # 3445) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,21,12,42,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 21-08-2005 19:42<noscript>August 21, 2005 12:42 PM</noscript>:
I'g guess driving effect. Aussies drive on the wrong side of the road. Probably as a result of being upside down.
In the malls, their milling teenagers probably follow the same pattern.
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,21,15,57,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 21-08-2005 22:57<noscript>August 21, 2005 03:57 PM</noscript>:
Most of South America is upside down - yet they drive on the right. So being Antipodean isn't the entire answer...but we're used to being considered a bit funny. Must be the effects of all those Northern Hemisphere convicts.
Speaking of left and right...and this is maybe worth a separate thread; why do so many people confuse left and right sides? Persistent pain patients tend to, but so do others.
Why is this so? I have a few ideas but what do others think?
Nari
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,21,16,1,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 21-08-2005 23:01<noscript>August 21, 2005 04:01 PM</noscript>:
quote: <hr> why do so many people confuse left and right sides? Persistent pain patients tend to, but so do others. <hr>
Mirror neurons? <hr> Posted by Jason Silvernail (Member # 4433) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,22,10,4,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 22-08-2005 17:04<noscript>August 22, 2005 10:04 AM</noscript>:
Randy-
Keep your chin tucked, brother.
I do think there is an art to feeling this type of movement (at least to speak of it's sporting use, I can't quite get it for manual care yet).
It's funny, but the same things that Barrett says about feeling it in patients also work for feeling it in your opponent:
1. Touch softly
2. Relax
3. Be patient
4. Don't try to lead them anywhere, just go with their motion
So, I can definitely see the connection there. Perhaps this is all the same type of movement we are talking about?
J
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,22,11,5,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 22-08-2005 18:05<noscript>August 22, 2005 11:05 AM</noscript>:
Yes, it is. The differencr lies in its intent, not its origin.
Ideomotion has two purposes-to express us (like what we are intending to do) and to make us comfortable (like shifting in the chair toward comfort). Simple Contact allows the amplification of that second reason by identifying the cultural restrictions and encouraging fuller, naturally occurring expression. Children do it all the time. I'm researching Fred Rogers, as in Mister Roger's Neighborhood, and found this quote from him:
"The child is in me still…and sometimes not so still."
I think he understood.
<hr> Posted by Mike T. (Member # 4226) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,22,11,52,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 22-08-2005 18:52<noscript>August 22, 2005 11:52 AM</noscript>:
quote: <hr> <hr>
"However, an innate ability seems so natural to the owner that there must be a constant temptation to teach others that it is worth the effort to 'learn'it. Right, Barrett?" quote: <hr> <hr>
I would agree. Everyone has some skill or talent, something they were able to pick up easily and perform without effort. This might seem like a silly example, but my wife can easily touch her nose with the tip of her tongue and I cannot. So can one of her sisters, but not the other. Her father can but her mother cannot.I'm not trying to say that some people are incapable of SC or that it is a genetic trait, just that others might be inherently better at it.
mike t
<hr> Posted by Gil Haight (Member # 691) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,22,13,34,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 22-08-2005 20:34<noscript>August 22, 2005 01:34 PM</noscript>:
The ability to be able to elicit and promote SC has more to do with an appreciation of its existance rather than some innate talent or capacity ( "The Vase" -Barrett) . Remember, by definition SC is a form of communication. It is something that goes on between people. The principles that apply to any good communication apply here.
Perhaps the most neccessary quality is one which is grounded in the simple idea that the system is self sensing and self correcting. It ( the system) doesn't need help, it needs attention. If one feels patients need correction or fixing, I can't imagine how any of this could make sense.
Gil
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,22,16,12,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 22-08-2005 23:12<noscript>August 22, 2005 04:12 PM</noscript>:
Gil
Good post.
Quote: "it (the system) doesn't need help, it needs attention"..
The subtle difference in meaning between 'help' and 'attention' is precisely what I think SC is about...and precisely what bothers PTs as to their 'role' in patient contact.
Although, I must admit, I am not happy with the title of 'Simple Contact'...although I have no suggestions of an alternative name....
Nari
<hr> Posted by Mike T. (Member # 4226) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,23,8,48,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 23-08-2005 15:48<noscript>August 23, 2005 08:48 AM</noscript>:
Gil,
Good point and well said.
mike t
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,23,10,59,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 23-08-2005 17:59<noscript>August 23, 2005 10:59 AM</noscript>:
Yes, Gil's point is one I make continually. To put it another way: If we saw the body as it actually exists (given what research has demonstrated the past few years), and then watched traditional care taking place for nonpathologic painful problems, we'd have to wonder why on earth things were being done in this way.
As we study, our appreciation for the subtle and fagile nature of self-correction grows. The trick is to study-after that, technique takes care of itself.
<hr> Posted by Gil Haight (Member # 691) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,23,12,42,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 23-08-2005 19:42<noscript>August 23, 2005 12:42 PM</noscript>:
Nari & MIke,
Thanks.
However,I am wondering Nari, what's wrong with the term Simple Contact? It is what the therapist does and aren't we limited to that aspect of treatment as we try to describe any manual therapy?
Gil
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,23,16,34,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 23-08-2005 23:34<noscript>August 23, 2005 04:34 PM</noscript>:
Gil, it is not a criticism, just a comment. For someone totally unfamiliar with the concept, it suggests a kind of tactile or verbal contact. Reiki practitioners could refer to their intervention as 'simple contact', for instance.
I was just being a bit semantical....
Nari
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,23,18,52,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 24-08-2005 01:52<noscript>August 23, 2005 06:52 PM</noscript>:
Nari,
It is a tactile or verbal contact.
From my power point presentation:
Simple Contact
A technique of communication, either verbal or manual, designed to make another aware of their already ongoing processes and encourage their expression
Simple Contact does not move others. When used manually, it just deforms the skin
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,23,20,53,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 24-08-2005 03:53<noscript>August 23, 2005 08:53 PM</noscript>:
Thanks Barrett
I did understand that SC does not move others; and that it is manual therapy. I expect more will fall into place at the course...
Nari