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Posted by Randy Dixon<script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,6,16,16,55,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> (Member # 3445) on 16-07-2005 23:55<noscript>July 16, 2005 04:55 PM</noscript>:
Have any of you heard of this:
http://www.vagusnervestimulator.com/about/
What are your thoughts about it and how it relates it to pain.
In an almost unrelated but actually related topic, have you wondered why the "Gilligan Maneuver" (pressing your finger under your nose) stops you from sneezing.
It must have something to do with the trigeminal nerve, but how does a reflexive action get stopped?
I also have a rash which is causing me to itch, I found out that histamine caused itch has it's own neural pathways, while other itches share the pathways with nociceptive receptors.
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,6,16,17,20,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 17-07-2005 00:20<noscript>July 16, 2005 05:20 PM</noscript>:
Randy
I know about the sneezing trick, but apply peri-oral pressure to someone who is having increased tremors and mild (stress - mild) fitting and the tremors reduce markedly. I did read somewhere the reason for this but cannot remember. It goes WAY back to a physio called Roods in the 50s who used thoracic pressure, peri-oral, sternal etc for all sorts of things including increasing ventilation and reducing spasm.
Back to the skin as a receptor++++!
Diane, are you there?
Nari
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,6,16,18,11,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 17-07-2005 01:11<noscript>July 16, 2005 06:11 PM</noscript>:
I'm here.
There is someone who wrote a huge paper about that, putting a pacemaker like device right on vagus to interrupt epileptic seizures.. his name escapes me just now. I wrote about him on NOI a long time ago. He is married to the woman who did research into the bonding effects of oxytocin in mammals.
In any case, vagus is certainly easy enough to get to and affect/neuromodulate somehow in a neurodynamic tunnel affecting sort of way, lying right in the front of the neck like it does.
Mostly vagus has no cutaneous link, except for a patch of skin behind the ear. Cranial treatment come to mind for anyone? I can see though that perioral etc cutaneous stim could affect vagus downstream.. all the cranial nerves probably talk to each other somehow, probably just another level of neuromatrix integration. Why wouldn't they? Especially the mouth, huge representation in the SS cortex, front end of the gut tube, big investigation tool for checking out the environment at the infant/creature level.
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,6,17,7,55,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 17-07-2005 14:55<noscript>July 17, 2005 07:55 AM</noscript>:
His name is Stephen Porges, and hers is Susan Carter.
Links if anyone likes:
original Porges article
Lots of evolutionary theory, embryologic trails for those who like that sort of thing (I know I do..)
where I learned he was married to Susan Carter, oxytocin researcher
I was amazed at the huge volume of stuff there is now, a short two years since I checked out vagal stim. Seems it has caught on, is being used for headaches, depression, is being thrown at everything that has shown itself to be resistant to treatment by drugs/surgery.
<hr> Posted by Gil Haight (Member # 691) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,6,19,10,23,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-07-2005 17:23<noscript>July 19, 2005 10:23 AM</noscript>:
Randy,
Considerable research has been done by Randich out of the University of Iowa regarding baroceptor reflex arcs. Also Sandkuler(sp). These receptors are present in the carotid arteries, heart and lungs and I believe carried to the brain stem by the Vagus. Stimulation of the receptors by a rise in blood pressure, increased cardic contractability or respitory enhancement has been linked to endogenous antinociception through the vary same pathways often described on this list in many threads. Randich has proposed the possibility of hypertension as a an innate mechanism to reduce chronic pain. This is also an explanation of why we feel good after an aerobic workout.In short there exists a strong correlation between hypertension and pain relief.
Perhaps Vagus nerve stimulation stimulates the same reflex arc?
Gil
<hr> Posted by Randy Dixon (Member # 3445) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,6,26,22,51,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 27-07-2005 05:51<noscript>July 26, 2005 10:51 PM</noscript>:
Gil,
I just got back from vacation in Missouri so I haven't been reading the postings here. Thanks for the information, I find it interesting and I'm going to look more into it. It has always been curious to me how our minds can turn off pain at times when they need to but not at other times.
<hr> Posted by Yogi (Member # 3083) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,6,27,8,33,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 27-07-2005 15:33<noscript>July 27, 2005 08:33 AM</noscript>:
I read Medtronic has a patent on vagal nerve stimulation, so they "own" the vagal n. I once worked for a businessman who made a killing as a pacemaker salesman (he bought stock in his company early on). Medtronic may yet find a "killer app" for VNS. Don't say I didn't tell you, if you find you could have gotten rich in Medtronic stock.
The company that invents the stim to prevent formation of the glial scar in the spinal cord, and Wallerian degeneration in the peripheral nerves, now there will be a wealth making killer app.
<hr> Posted by GaryMott (Member # 5581) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,26,11,25,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-08-2005 18:25<noscript>August 26, 2005 11:25 AM</noscript>:
"Mostly vagus has no cutaneous link, except for a patch of skin behind the ear. Cranial treatment come to mind for anyone?"
From what I have read in Magoun (based on Sutherland concepts of CST) and Kuchera&Kuchera (Osteopathic Principle in Practice), and of course seen in every anatomy book (Nedder has a great picture) the Glossophyrangeal, Vagus, and Accessory (CN 9-11) exit the jugular foramen. I know some clinicians who try CST to "open the jugular foramen" and this involves "mobilization" of the temporal bone and usually some manipulation near/at ear.
This approach requires that you believe Sutherland's and Magoun's assertation that the cranial sutures are not entirely fibrous and can be manipulated of course.
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,26,15,53,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-08-2005 22:53<noscript>August 26, 2005 03:53 PM</noscript>:
Have any of you heard of this:
http://www.vagusnervestimulator.com/about/
What are your thoughts about it and how it relates it to pain.
In an almost unrelated but actually related topic, have you wondered why the "Gilligan Maneuver" (pressing your finger under your nose) stops you from sneezing.
It must have something to do with the trigeminal nerve, but how does a reflexive action get stopped?
I also have a rash which is causing me to itch, I found out that histamine caused itch has it's own neural pathways, while other itches share the pathways with nociceptive receptors.
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,6,16,17,20,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 17-07-2005 00:20<noscript>July 16, 2005 05:20 PM</noscript>:
Randy
I know about the sneezing trick, but apply peri-oral pressure to someone who is having increased tremors and mild (stress - mild) fitting and the tremors reduce markedly. I did read somewhere the reason for this but cannot remember. It goes WAY back to a physio called Roods in the 50s who used thoracic pressure, peri-oral, sternal etc for all sorts of things including increasing ventilation and reducing spasm.
Back to the skin as a receptor++++!
Diane, are you there?
Nari
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,6,16,18,11,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 17-07-2005 01:11<noscript>July 16, 2005 06:11 PM</noscript>:
I'm here.
There is someone who wrote a huge paper about that, putting a pacemaker like device right on vagus to interrupt epileptic seizures.. his name escapes me just now. I wrote about him on NOI a long time ago. He is married to the woman who did research into the bonding effects of oxytocin in mammals.
In any case, vagus is certainly easy enough to get to and affect/neuromodulate somehow in a neurodynamic tunnel affecting sort of way, lying right in the front of the neck like it does.
Mostly vagus has no cutaneous link, except for a patch of skin behind the ear. Cranial treatment come to mind for anyone? I can see though that perioral etc cutaneous stim could affect vagus downstream.. all the cranial nerves probably talk to each other somehow, probably just another level of neuromatrix integration. Why wouldn't they? Especially the mouth, huge representation in the SS cortex, front end of the gut tube, big investigation tool for checking out the environment at the infant/creature level.
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,6,17,7,55,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 17-07-2005 14:55<noscript>July 17, 2005 07:55 AM</noscript>:
His name is Stephen Porges, and hers is Susan Carter.
Links if anyone likes:
original Porges article
Lots of evolutionary theory, embryologic trails for those who like that sort of thing (I know I do..)
where I learned he was married to Susan Carter, oxytocin researcher
I was amazed at the huge volume of stuff there is now, a short two years since I checked out vagal stim. Seems it has caught on, is being used for headaches, depression, is being thrown at everything that has shown itself to be resistant to treatment by drugs/surgery.
<hr> Posted by Gil Haight (Member # 691) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,6,19,10,23,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-07-2005 17:23<noscript>July 19, 2005 10:23 AM</noscript>:
Randy,
Considerable research has been done by Randich out of the University of Iowa regarding baroceptor reflex arcs. Also Sandkuler(sp). These receptors are present in the carotid arteries, heart and lungs and I believe carried to the brain stem by the Vagus. Stimulation of the receptors by a rise in blood pressure, increased cardic contractability or respitory enhancement has been linked to endogenous antinociception through the vary same pathways often described on this list in many threads. Randich has proposed the possibility of hypertension as a an innate mechanism to reduce chronic pain. This is also an explanation of why we feel good after an aerobic workout.In short there exists a strong correlation between hypertension and pain relief.
Perhaps Vagus nerve stimulation stimulates the same reflex arc?
Gil
<hr> Posted by Randy Dixon (Member # 3445) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,6,26,22,51,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 27-07-2005 05:51<noscript>July 26, 2005 10:51 PM</noscript>:
Gil,
I just got back from vacation in Missouri so I haven't been reading the postings here. Thanks for the information, I find it interesting and I'm going to look more into it. It has always been curious to me how our minds can turn off pain at times when they need to but not at other times.
<hr> Posted by Yogi (Member # 3083) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,6,27,8,33,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 27-07-2005 15:33<noscript>July 27, 2005 08:33 AM</noscript>:
I read Medtronic has a patent on vagal nerve stimulation, so they "own" the vagal n. I once worked for a businessman who made a killing as a pacemaker salesman (he bought stock in his company early on). Medtronic may yet find a "killer app" for VNS. Don't say I didn't tell you, if you find you could have gotten rich in Medtronic stock.
The company that invents the stim to prevent formation of the glial scar in the spinal cord, and Wallerian degeneration in the peripheral nerves, now there will be a wealth making killer app.
<hr> Posted by GaryMott (Member # 5581) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,26,11,25,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-08-2005 18:25<noscript>August 26, 2005 11:25 AM</noscript>:
"Mostly vagus has no cutaneous link, except for a patch of skin behind the ear. Cranial treatment come to mind for anyone?"
From what I have read in Magoun (based on Sutherland concepts of CST) and Kuchera&Kuchera (Osteopathic Principle in Practice), and of course seen in every anatomy book (Nedder has a great picture) the Glossophyrangeal, Vagus, and Accessory (CN 9-11) exit the jugular foramen. I know some clinicians who try CST to "open the jugular foramen" and this involves "mobilization" of the temporal bone and usually some manipulation near/at ear.
This approach requires that you believe Sutherland's and Magoun's assertation that the cranial sutures are not entirely fibrous and can be manipulated of course.
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,7,26,15,53,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-08-2005 22:53<noscript>August 26, 2005 03:53 PM</noscript>:
quote: <hr> From what I have read in Magoun (based on Sutherland concepts of CST) and Kuchera&Kuchera (Osteopathic Principle in Practice), and of course seen in every anatomy book (Nedder has a great picture) the Glossophyrangeal, Vagus, and Accessory (CN 9-11) exit the jugular foramen. I know some clinicians who try CST to "open the jugular foramen" and this involves "mobilization" of the temporal bone and usually some manipulation near/at ear.
This approach requires that you believe Sutherland's and Magoun's assertation that the cranial sutures are not entirely fibrous and can be manipulated of course. <hr>
I think if you see everything through a "manipulator" lens, you'll tend to go there in your mind, or adopt those beliefs. If you are a neuromodulator on the other hand, you'll treat the receptive field (the cutaneous part of the nerve) through skin stretch or some other benign form of input, (through the SA Type II mechanoreceptors that respond continuously to lateral stretch) and be content to let the patient's brain pick up and work with it from there, neuromodulate itself and its own output/ behavior/ movement. This approach requires that you believe Sutherland's and Magoun's assertation that the cranial sutures are not entirely fibrous and can be manipulated of course. <hr>