The Nanaimo Experience

[bernard]

Posted by Barrett<script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,14,21,44,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> (Member # 67) on 15-09-2005 04:44<noscript>September 14, 2005 09:44 PM</noscript>:

Late Thursday morning I’m going to take a deep breath, get in the car and head toward the Cleveland airport. If everything goes as planned my third flight of the day will touch down in Nanaimo on Vancouver Island about 10 hours later. Eric Matheson will be waiting.

I read an essay in the recent Skeptical Inquirer by Ralph Estling titled “Eloquent but Gloomy,” the author writes about the likelihood of something happening: “When one thinks about it, virtually everything that has ever happened in the Universe was totally unexpected, until it became, suddenly or very gradually over the eons, inevitable. The possibility of any particular event actually occurring is governed by two factors: all the previous events leading up to it and its own individual precise time, place and nature. Thirteen billion, seven hundred million years ago the odds against your coming into existence were, well, astronomical. Yet, here you indisputably are, reading this and wondering what in hell I’m talking about.”

I liked this. For all the times I’ve had therapists talk to me about putting together a workshop, I know that this actually happening is incredibly rare. Despite that, Eric’s done it, overcoming what I know to be astronomical odds. He got some help from others I will certainly mention, but right now it’s Mr. Matheson I want to give credit to.

Nari and Diane, known to everyone here, spoke recently of a book by John Gribbin titled Deep Simplicity that I subsequently bought in self-defense. On page 14 he speaks of Newton’s ability to calculate precisely the elliptical orbit of Mars around the sun using the gravitational laws he had discovered and articulated. (stay with me now) Gribbon points out that the absolute precision of Newton’s calculation is possible only if you rather conveniently pretend that the gravitational influence of all the other planets didn’t exist. In fact, once you begin to consider their very real influence you have what is known as “the three body problem.” Add enough influence from enough bodies and you get an orbit that approaches randomness and chaos.

In my previous 96 workshops I’ve been the star. You could tell I was the star because I wore a suit and tie. Beyond that I was larger than most everybody else and I was certainly louder. Brightness had nothing to do with it. But on Friday in Nanaimo I’m going to be just another planet. Oh, I’ve got a whole bunch planned to say and I’ll be in front, but I’m not going to fool this group with a coat and tie. I will enter portions of the PT universe I don’t know as well as they do, I won’t be able to cite an obscure reference without sweating out a question about its veracity.

I usually know what’s going to happen at a workshop. Well, more or less. On the island there won’t be a “three body problem,” I think it will be larger, seven or eight bodies, at least. And I honestly don’t think it will be a problem at all.

I can’t wait.
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,16,8,7,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 16-09-2005 15:07<noscript>September 16, 2005 08:07 AM</noscript>:

After running on the treadmill here this morning I walked through the streets of Nanaimo in an effort to cool down. It was raining just a bit but otherwise quite nice. I came through the front doors of the hotel and asked the security man if this rain was supposed to continue. He smiled. “Maybe,” was his only comment. “Well, is there a forecast?” I asked. He grew more animated and said, “They say it’s going to clear this afternoon but it might last the rest of the year.” Not exactly the answer I anticipated, but he went on to explain how I was on the coast, and that here, even the satellite views don’t tell you much about what will happen next.

Last night I went out to dinner with Eric, Nari, Luke and Diane. A wonderful time and I anticipate some more, but I should remember that now I’m on the coast.
<hr> Posted by james097 (Member # 4417) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,16,10,44,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 16-09-2005 17:44<noscript>September 16, 2005 10:44 AM</noscript>:

Vancouver Island has dissapeared from view on the mainland this morning. The rain is steady but it is still pleasantly warm. If anyone is interested in Scottish sweeties or other tidbits Eric can I'm sure, guide you to McLeans in the Old City. Hope you all have a super time.
Jim McGregor
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,16,13,10,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 16-09-2005 20:10<noscript>September 16, 2005 01:10 PM</noscript>:

Jim
The skies are lifting over here. Will try to find McLeans and those treats you talk about.

Eric
<hr> Posted by Jon Newman (Member # 3148) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,16,14,59,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 16-09-2005 21:59<noscript>September 16, 2005 02:59 PM</noscript>:

Jim,

Why aren't you at the course? What better way to spend a gray day?

jon
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,16,16,32,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 16-09-2005 23:32<noscript>September 16, 2005 04:32 PM</noscript>:

The last break of the day and I still can't get any new people to post even though they have been promised a beautiful "Cuyahoga Falls Ohio" cap for doing so.

I'll keep trying and will post some photos later.



<small>[ September 17, 2005, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: David Adamczyk ]</small>
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,16,16,36,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 16-09-2005 23:36<noscript>September 16, 2005 04:36 PM</noscript>:

I'm Helen and I'm at the class now. Seema like there's some difficulty in accepting some of this amongst the group. But, knowing my patients do like to be touched and it is soothing and beneficial to them, and feels good to me as well, it'll be fun to incorporate this movement in the clinic and for myself. I like this sort of stuff. And of course that beautiful hat is a compelling reason to post!
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,16,18,14,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 17-09-2005 01:14<noscript>September 16, 2005 06:14 PM</noscript>:

Helen actually won a hat for that last post. I'm thinking of simply selling the rest.

I don't have the impression that acceptance is hard to come by here. There's lots of support and some excellent questions. Of course, I may not be the best judge of what how others feel. Ironic, huh?

Soon about 12 of us will meet for dinner. I'm going to try and not fall asleep face down in my soup.
<hr> Posted by Carolyn (Member # 5705) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,16,22,42,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 17-09-2005 05:42<noscript>September 16, 2005 10:42 PM</noscript>:

As I really don't want to have to pay for a cap, here I am "posting" despite having resisted the temptation for the previous 10 years. While I feel that I am taking a few leaps of faith in some of Barret's explanations, I appreciate the references to the scientific research. Perhaps I don't know much of this research as my alma mater expected current references (i.e. maximum 2 years old) and anything which would have dated back to the early 90's would have been severely frowned upon. Very strange to think of, as I sit happily enjoying this course and science that dates back decades.
<hr> Posted by maureenc (Member # 5706) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,16,23,55,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 17-09-2005 06:55<noscript>September 16, 2005 11:55 PM</noscript>:

I'm Maureen and I would like to thank Eric for facilitating this workshop, and to Barrett for his compelling presentation. I seem to be the only OT at the workshop, and although I don't use manual therapy in my practice, I am very interested in the theory and practice of Simple Contact in my work with children with autism. Today I spoke to Barrett about that, wondering if the technique could be useful to help calm and organize the nervous system, which is a huge problem for many of these children. Barrett's response was that we need to go through expression to get to calm! This rings true to me...so many thoughts and questions, but I do feel a strong resonance with the material I am learning in these 2 days. So I am grateful to be able to take part, and look forward to tomorrow!
<hr> Posted by Luke R (Member # 3561) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,17,1,16,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 17-09-2005 08:16<noscript>September 17, 2005 01:16 AM</noscript>:

I have traveled all the way to the other side of the planet just for The Nanaimo Experience, and so far it has been well worth the trip.

In a thread last year Barrett asked the question "Why such resistance?". After today that question seems all the more pertinent to me.

More later..

Luke
<hr> Posted by yves (Member # 177) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,17,2,25,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 17-09-2005 09:25<noscript>September 17, 2005 02:25 AM</noscript>:

Dear Barrett, Its been two years since my last confession, or rather since I wrote on Rehab Edge. Thankyou and Eric for comming out to Vancouver Island.

I have followed your journals since 1995 or 97, and felt you had the best handle on the autonomic nervous system or simply the nervous system.

In the winter of 2003, in Calagary, I received great solace from Dianne Lee who lectured two days on the biomechanics of the Thoracic spine, only to leave me in the dust after a few hours. Fortunatly, on the second afternoon, during a practical Lab, Dianne simply said to a few of those gathered about, "You can forget all the biomechanics that I lectured on, and do what Barrett Dorko does, and went to demonstrate Simple Contact and produced wonderfull immediate results.

I went home thrilled to bits to have sat thru two days of cruelling biomechanic to realize that we need to let the patient move into healing.

Well, I am alive and well again and will get down to some serious waiting to see what my patients will do for me. I hope to explore simple contact in ICU over the next few weeks. I will keep you posted and am excited again.

Now I just need to balance my life between Rehab Edge and sewing and of course my wife Carol, after all it is her computer.
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,17,11,28,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 17-09-2005 18:28<noscript>September 17, 2005 11:28 AM</noscript>:

Hi,
It's Diane.
I will write more later,once I'm home and can write on something easier than this weird little thing.
Just want to say, however that this workshop is a long drink of water to this thirsty camel.
Diane
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,17,13,57,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 17-09-2005 20:57<noscript>September 17, 2005 01:57 PM</noscript>:

I can't wait to try what we've learned on a number of my patient's. Ivan.
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,17,14,5,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 17-09-2005 21:05<noscript>September 17, 2005 02:05 PM</noscript>:

First time I've used this type of site. Also first time I've become aware of this way of thinking about chronic pain. My ethos is also about movement to facilitate healing, but I've been totally unaware of unconscious movement as the path. So a big THANK-YOU to Barrett Dorko!
Mid.
<hr> Posted by Christophb (Member # 3884) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,17,14,35,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 17-09-2005 21:35<noscript>September 17, 2005 02:35 PM</noscript>:

Well, the Naniamo experience has far exceeded my expectaions, I was expecting Barrett to be a mean old coot but I was disappointed. I did notice something different about this course comapared to the last manual therapy course I attended... I dont hurt. Its amazing how good you feel when you don't look for problems.
<hr> Posted by maureenc (Member # 5706) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,17,18,12,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 18-09-2005 01:12<noscript>September 17, 2005 06:12 PM</noscript>:

I always find that doing something which is "outside the box" for me opens up so much more than what I was originally looking for/expecting. This workshop has definitely done that, adds to the excitement of being a therapist and fits with the creativity/imagination that you talked about today, Barrett. Thanks again so much for today and also to Eric. It was also very cool to see in person people whom I had read postings from a few days before, and I look forward to using this site now that I know about it!
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,18,8,45,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 18-09-2005 15:45<noscript>September 18, 2005 08:45 AM</noscript>:

I'm in the Nanaimo airport and getting ready to head back to Ohio this morning.

Nari, Luke, Diane, Jon and his wife Michelle gathered at Eric's new home for pizza yesterday evening and I joined them along with my son Alex and his new bride, Melissa, up from Seattle. Had a fierce conversation for a couple of hours-the perfect end to a remarkable workshop.

I felt before heading this way that the course would take all I had to pull off successfully, given the sophistication of the class and the tendency of the Canadian therapists to demand the teacher make sense. That's a compliment, by the way.

I couldn't have been more pleased with the way it all turned out and I know I had nothing left at the end-just the way I wanted it.

I'm sorting through the many photos taken and will be posting them soon, so please come back and take a look. Anyone from the course who took pictures, please`send them on to me so I can add to the display.

Now, I have a long flight ahead.
<hr> Posted by Luke R (Member # 3561) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,18,14,32,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 18-09-2005 21:32<noscript>September 18, 2005 02:32 PM</noscript>:

What a phenomenal weekend. Thank-you Barrett for making the time to travel this far to present your life's work to us. As I said in closing the workshop, every time I see this movie it gets better. Thank-you also to everyone who attended. I sense you all enjoyed the experience and without your participation it would not have been the same. My only hope is that it doesn't end here.
Barrett has laid the ground work for the future of our profession. We can't just ignore the neurobiologic revolution, it's here to stay. It is now our turn, in fact our responsibility as professionals, to take this information and use it, to turn it around in our minds, test it, re-test it, and build on it, and make it our own. This is what evidence based practice is all about. As I'm sure Diane would agree, the very survival of our profesion depends on it.
I look forward to engaging you all in discussions down the road.

Happy Trails,
Eric
<hr> Posted by Luke R (Member # 3561) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,18,14,34,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 18-09-2005 21:34<noscript>September 18, 2005 02:34 PM</noscript>:

Luke, should I log you off on my computer, or continue ghost writing for a while yet. Think of the trouble I could get you in!

Eric
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,18,21,16,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-09-2005 04:16<noscript>September 18, 2005 09:16 PM</noscript>:

I'm back in Ohio, just in case anyone was wondering. Still feeling wonderful about the whole experience.

I know a few of you there took photos that many would like to see. Please send what you can along to me and we'll put together a montage.
<hr> Posted by mieke (Member # 5598) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,19,0,41,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-09-2005 07:41<noscript>September 19, 2005 12:41 AM</noscript>:

I'm back on Pender Island and talked to my friends about the 'Simple Contact' workshop.I feel very energized in many different ways. Barrett uses literature, movies,poetry, analogies,science and life in general to explain everything about 'Simple Contact'.
Volunteering to be the patient wasn't so difficult in the space which was created by all whom were there.On my chair I could hardly sit still and had freezing cold feet and hands.
Little pains I thought nothing much off.
After feeling the unconditionally acceptance of Barretts hands, I gave myself permission to follow my own instinctive surprising movements. After a few seconds I started to feel more warmth.Ideomotoric is effortless and created for me increased feeling of softness and space. Sitting was much easier. He also showed us some movements to increase the awareness of the choice we can make to experience something new.
Thank you Barrett for a surprising, soft, warm and effortless workshop (participants side only).Mieke.
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,19,9,31,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-09-2005 16:31<noscript>September 19, 2005 09:31 AM</noscript>:

In case you're wondering, Mieke is the woman I'm working with in the picture earlier in the thread. her difficulty with sitting and increased sympathetic tone resulting in cooling and general rigidity are typical of an abnormal neurodynamic. These problems were several years in duration and though surgery had helped some peripheral symptoms there was much more in need of change.

I can never see into the future with such things but feel confident that if my advice is followed more improvement will be rapid and enduring.

To me, the transformation of Mieke (originally from the Netherlands, like many wonderful therapists) from one who not only was unaware of her own instinctive motion but found it very difficult to accept and express to one who easily allowed it to emerge in class was most impressive. This took less than an hour.
<hr> Posted by coreconcepts (Member # 4823) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,19,11,5,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-09-2005 18:05<noscript>September 19, 2005 11:05 AM</noscript>:

I'm officially incredibly jealous of those who had the pleasure of attending this workshop! Too bad the weather wasn't better for those who travelled great distances (Sunday was a lovely day, though). Any chance you'll make it back to the PNW over the next couple of years, Barrett?

I look forward to the vicarious experiences that await me on the boards from participants of the conference. Sign me up for the next one! (or at least put me down for one of those Cuyahoga Falls hats!)
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,19,11,15,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-09-2005 18:15<noscript>September 19, 2005 11:15 AM</noscript>:

Core,

I go where I'm invited or where Cross Country sends me. For instance, I see I'll be in Baton Rouge LA on Thursday at the same time Hurricane Rita is expected to arrive in the Gulf Coast. That's dedication, I guess. In contrast, the weather was wonderful on the island the whole time I was there.

I'd be glad to come your way again.
<hr> Posted by mfostyk (Member # 4738) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,19,11,36,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-09-2005 18:36<noscript>September 19, 2005 11:36 AM</noscript>:

Barrett...

Always great to see you, but this weekend was a treat to see you work. I wanted to say thanks for the invite we loved it and are still talking about it. Most importantly, thanks for the help with my foot. We walked over 5 miles yesterday and I am experiencing zero pain in my left foot, something I haven't been able to do since we moved out West! ~ Melissa
PS(I hope this gets me a hat [IMG]smile.gif[/IMG] )
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,19,13,48,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-09-2005 20:48<noscript>September 19, 2005 01:48 PM</noscript>:

I am back in Vancouver, and due to a slight mishap involving an apparently lost passport, so is Luke, still. (We've got the situation in hand, have another flight booked and another passport in the process of being issued, but the timing will be a little squeaky tomorrow morning, so wish us luck.)

Will post later after thoughts can be collected together. Thanks Barrett, for the fierce conversation at Eric's. I feel like what was only a 'virtual salon' finally met face to face, and became a real one. For a bunch of introverts I think we did pretty good not wanting very much down time away from one another. Nobody r-e-a-l-ly wanted to say 'bye... not me anyway.

Nari won't be on for awhile, she's travelling around the island looking at rock formations and large Canadian predatory (bear) and herbivorous (moose) mammals. Bob and his wife from Port Alberni showed up for the workshop, and she got invited to hang out with them.
Diane
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,19,21,45,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 20-09-2005 04:45<noscript>September 19, 2005 09:45 PM</noscript>:



Cam Crichton "doing nothing" with his partner's knee.

And people wonder why there aren't any pictures in my course manual. Sigh.
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,19,21,52,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 20-09-2005 04:52<noscript>September 19, 2005 09:52 PM</noscript>:



Our own Nari at work, sort of.
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,19,21,57,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 20-09-2005 04:57<noscript>September 19, 2005 09:57 PM</noscript>:



Nari, Luke and Diane in the ever-popular "Cuyahoga Falls Ohio" cap.

Michelle and Jon Newman and Gayle Robinson.
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,19,22,11,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 20-09-2005 05:11<noscript>September 19, 2005 10:11 PM</noscript>:



Mieke moved easily into ranges she normally avoids. This is ideomotor movement-no coercion on my part.
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,19,22,17,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 20-09-2005 05:17<noscript>September 19, 2005 10:17 PM</noscript>:



Yves Savaria retesting after some spontaneous correction. I think.
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,20,12,50,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 20-09-2005 19:50<noscript>September 20, 2005 12:50 PM</noscript>:

Little update. Just left Luke at the airport. His plane should be leaving in about a half hour. Yesterday we found the consulate and they very efficiently whipped him up a new temporary passport so he could leave Canada. We think someone must have lifted his passport from his pants pocket while he roamed around on the ferry, taking pictures of this and that. Travellers beware.

Good pictures of all the participants learning how to do nothing. Or maybe that should be, learning not to do anything. How about, unlearning the urge to do something.
<hr> Posted by jma (Member # 775) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,20,19,53,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 21-09-2005 02:53<noscript>September 20, 2005 07:53 PM</noscript>:

Nice pictures. Glad you guys had a nice time together.
<hr> Posted by Christophb (Member # 3884) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,20,20,45,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 21-09-2005 03:45<noscript>September 20, 2005 08:45 PM</noscript>:

So I get to work enthusiastic to do nothing. I sat down and figured I could use Simple Contact on about 6 of the people I was seeing today. One by one as they came in I thought, hmmm I could use simple contact. I ended up using it on 12 people with wonderful results. However, so many times today a little voice popped into my head critcising this new way of looking at things. No doubt this little ego is fearful of change. I was exhausted at the end of the day in part from enthusiasm and probably partly due to the energy required to break free of the usual way of doing things. I strive to make it my own... and probably have a long way to go. No doubt, it will be an interesting journey.

Chris
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,20,21,33,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 21-09-2005 04:33<noscript>September 20, 2005 09:33 PM</noscript>:

Hi Chris,
Could you post some of the results?
<hr> Posted by Christophb (Member # 3884) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,20,23,0,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 21-09-2005 06:00<noscript>September 20, 2005 11:00 PM</noscript>:

Sure... I usually try to shut off all thoughts of work after I leave but I'll try to recall.

first guy was seeing me for LBP and bilateral OA of the knees L>R. Pain in back resolved but felt tight so MD wanted him to see a massage therapist to "break up the tissue" Did some SC and education, guy fell asleep on me and went on his merry way without symptoms.

Another gal had fx of right femur with surgical repair... all had healed but had unresolved tightness of her knee. She was lacking -9 degrees of extension. With her previous therapist (I was just filling in) she was only able to get -7. We did literally 30 seconds of SC and she was at -3 easily with 0 degrees at the end of the session. Doing SC in standing got her walking without any noticeable deviation.

Another fellow with hx of LBP and HTN, did SC and he about passed out, checked his BP and it was 115/80 (unheard of for him). He reported feeling totally at ease in his body and was totally relaxed without pain.

Otherwise used it to clear up some shoulders, knees, plantar fascitis (just working at the head cleared up this one... problems for 1-2 yrs),

About 1/4 of the people felt exhausted after, "wanted to take a nap" Probably haven't been that relaxed in a while.

Good stuff.

p.s. I'm the worlds worst typer
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,21,10,0,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 21-09-2005 17:00<noscript>September 21, 2005 10:00 AM</noscript>:

Sounds like you are on a roll Chris. (Your typing looks fine..)

Today will be my first day back at work since the Nanaimo experience. There are nine new patients booked between now and Monday. I've thought about simple contact for the last few days, am working through the tapes I made. There are a few patient types that I think it would work best on, for me:
1. children (although I don't see many and try to discourage moms from bringing them to me because I'm not especially fond of treating them)
2. any patients who are stuck in a rut (rare, but there are a couple)
3. wound-up weekend warrior athletes without diaphragmatic breathing who sit for a living, want to move and can't seem to because of pain in their tight everythings.
<hr> Posted by mieke (Member # 5598) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,21,23,28,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 22-09-2005 06:28<noscript>September 21, 2005 11:28 PM</noscript>:

Just a little update about mieke. I am doing my movements and the "excercise" which Barrett gave me. My hip joint left has a lot more range. It is so amazing.Warm feet too. My upper back is in upheavel.Probably needs more ideomotoric.
I have been talking and using Simple Contact on some of my patients. Explaining is still very difficult, I always seem to get stuck.
Lots more reading is likely going to help me.
<hr> Posted by Luke R (Member # 3561) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,22,1,9,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 22-09-2005 08:09<noscript>September 22, 2005 01:09 AM</noscript>:

I just arrived home (finally) from The Nanaimo Experience. Before I have a long sleep, after 32 hours of travel, I want to thank everyone for such an inspiring and enjoyable time.

I am aware that many people find the descriptions of SC here and on Barrett's website to be ambiguous and vague. After watching Barrett work, I found them to be decidedly representative of what SC looks likes and how it is employed. The aspect that made the most impact on me, and cannot easily be appreciated via reading, was the nature of the touch.

Luke
<hr> Posted by Christophb (Member # 3884) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,22,1,39,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 22-09-2005 08:39<noscript>September 22, 2005 01:39 AM</noscript>:

The first day I did a lot of explaining... it was quite tiring. The second day I just did it... people still responded. I followed up with a simple explanation and all was good. (I did get some crazy looks though)

Chris
<hr> Posted by Sarah C. (Member # 4115) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,22,21,34,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 23-09-2005 04:34<noscript>September 22, 2005 09:34 PM</noscript>:

I too am so jealous that I could not be there. Couldn't afford to fly across the country. We should get a workshop together in the midwest. Nice to finally see faces to put with the minds we know from the posts. And it's very good to read all the positive feedback. Maybe you should always do a two-day course, Barrett.
Sarah
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,23,8,22,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 23-09-2005 15:22<noscript>September 23, 2005 08:22 AM</noscript>:

I decided to try simple contact with a woman who has low back discomfort and is 5 months pregnant, who used to be a dancer many years ago. She immediately made a connection and said, this is like Laban. I knew nothing about Laban, so she sent me this link.

I wonder if this might be helpful to those who would want to analyze simple contact a bit more. Certainly it is food for thought.. looks like several measurement processes of movements like those in SC are already worked out, by PTs and OTs no less. "Laban movement analysis" brings up a lot of hits.

The patient remembered when she used to practice this Laban freeform movement she did not experience pain. So that became her homework.
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,25,18,9,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-09-2005 01:09<noscript>September 25, 2005 06:09 PM</noscript>:

Mieke writes: "I am doing my movements and the "excercise" which Barrett gave me. My hip joint left has a lot more range. It is so amazing.Warm feet too. My upper back is in upheavel.Probably needs more ideomotoric."

I was wondering how you're doing at this point. I'm also guessing that your solitary pursuit of ideomotion hasn't been as effective as when done in class. More than likely it's faster than it actually wants to be. Get your conscious mind out of the way and stop hurrying. This movement often emerges at a maddeningly slow pace.

I know you're visiting the forum. Either reply here or on Chris' new thread, please.

Anybody else new out there?
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,25,23,1,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-09-2005 06:01<noscript>September 25, 2005 11:01 PM</noscript>:

Hi all

I'm posting from Diane's login as I am still swanning around the Northern Hemisphere and tnight is the first night have an access to a PC..

Have had a hectic, great week on the West Coast of the Island, chasing whales and sea lions and kayaking, but also time to ponder on the effect of the Nanaimo Experience.....
It was a wonderful experience, both seeing and hearing what Barrett has propounded for a long time, rather than just reading his words. It (SC) seems to fill so many gaps that have been glaring me in the face for years. Mind you, I took quite a while to sift out my perceptions from what I thought was happening in class to what actually happened; lots of levels noted, and some insights also noted.
Mainly that Barrett is not a fire-breathing dragon at all, which I did suspect was the case anyway...

It was also very enlightening and pleasant meeting Diane, Luke, John, and Eric on a personal 3D basis.

I would like to connect with Aust PTs and osteos etc with regard to promoting SC and will contact those interested when I return home.

In the meantime. I'm off to the Canadian Rockies tomorrow for 7 days....eat your hearts out..?

Nari

(In Diane's splendid apartment)
<hr> Posted by Luke R (Member # 3561) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,26,5,51,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-09-2005 12:51<noscript>September 26, 2005 05:51 AM</noscript>:

I finally had a chance to use SC on patients today.

I had always imagined that one would need to explain the concept of ideomotion in order for patients to express it freely in clinic. Even in the class we had an hour of explanation before Barrett put his hands on someone.

I am now thoroughly satisfied that the nature of one's touch and knowledge of its existance are the only things necessary for corrective ideomotion to emerge. Like Chris, I see myself being compelled to follow with a simple explanation though.

Apart from that, faces and necks warmed, muscles softened, breathing patterns changed, ROM improved and people felt tired and relaxed.

I also now understand why Barrett says that doing nothing requires a litttle courage.

Nari, lets talk about The Aussie Experience when you get back.

Luke
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,26,6,16,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-09-2005 13:16<noscript>September 26, 2005 06:16 AM</noscript>:

Luke and Nari,

Thank you for this. I have the sense that the next time I'm asked to explain what I actually do (or am accused of purposely hiding it) that I'll get some support from those who attended the course in Canada.

Nari-Did you mean to say "..I did not suspect..."?

Still, there's little being said by those who haven't posted before. Until we as a therapy community can overcome that fear, progress will be slow. I don't know what more can be done to encourage participation.

I'm out of hats.
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,26,9,8,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-09-2005 16:08<noscript>September 26, 2005 09:08 AM</noscript>:

Barrett

I did mean to say that I never thought you were a firebreathing dragon, and attending the couse simply confirmed it further. But I think I had consumed too much wine with Diane and thoughts were befuddled....that is my excuse anyway.

Will post lots more on RE when I am home.

Luke..

I am back on the 6th Oct - will email you with ideas.


Nari
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,26,9,14,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-09-2005 16:14<noscript>September 26, 2005 09:14 AM</noscript>:

About explaining, I am finding it easiest to just go ahead and "do it", rather than try to justify it, where patients are concerned. They are there to be handled, so I tell them how and where I'm going to "handle" them, and how we're going to wait until their urge to move comes on; they are prepared a bit that way.. but no explaining. That would lead them into their minds, not into their "brains." So far so good. The justifications are necessary for colleagues, not so much the patients.

Nari and I experimented a little with the contact on the eccentric side and concentric side, and there really is a sense of greater control by the "patient" when the hand is on the skin of the lengthening side, plus a slower smoother motion. When the hand is on the concentrically contracting or shortening side, the sense is that movement is being blocked even though it isn't really, one feels one's own restrictions more rather than these (isometrically contracted) restrictions melting, and it is faster and less satisfying somehow.

It makes sense to me that if you are going to bother neuromodulating, that you would neuromodulate in a way that felt "better" to the patient, gave them a greater sense of the efficacy of their own motion, a bigger thrill from moving, more sense of triumph, rather than a heightened sense of what's "wrong." We don't want to reinforce the "wrong" or "painful" movement pathways, do we?

We could measure this I think, with evaluative tests like the way pain tests have evolved. The sense of ease or non-ease of movement could be graded subjectively by the patient. Scores could be added up and then objectified somehow. That's all stuff I know nothing about in detail, but I think I can see a shape in the fog to do with being able to measure things like SC in an outcome study..
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,26,9,49,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-09-2005 16:49<noscript>September 26, 2005 09:49 AM</noscript>:

An addit:

Luke, I will wait until your exams are finished unless you get a blast of enthusiasm for the Oz Experience Blueprint before then....

Diane and I will do some more 'prac' before I leave along the eccentric/concentric line of thoughts...


-------
NARI
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<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,26,10,12,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-09-2005 17:12<noscript>September 26, 2005 10:12 AM</noscript>:

This morning I read a great line in Charles Hayes'(my favorite autodidact) book Beyond the American Dream: "...this is not a 'how to' book; it's a 'why to.'"

I think this explains the nature of the writing I supply students, and I can't help but remember someone attending a course recently and saying, rather disappointedly, as they looked through the manual, "Where are the pictures?"
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,26,10,42,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-09-2005 17:42<noscript>September 26, 2005 10:42 AM</noscript>:

Barrett, I appreciate what you are saying, and why. Still, I think your very nice batch of work will not make it into mainstream PT mental radar unless it is explained a tad more concretely.

Nari and I spent a few minutes just now fooling around with eccentric side/concentric side contact. It makes a huge difference to the "sense" of the body opening up. Contact on the concentric or shortening side feels like having a kinesthetic blinker applied, while contact on the eccentric or lengthening side feels like a light is being shone on a kinesthetic picture of lengthening and softening and direct autocontrol of a formerly unconscious experience of isometric contaction/area of discomfort. This is an important piece I think.

Elucidating details such as this (inconsequential to you perhaps) detail of handling (because you do it yourself so "instinctively"), will simply maintain a barrier between you and all the concrete thinkers out there, most of whom tend to be attracted to PT for some reason, in case you didn't notice.. maybe you need that barrier for some reason, but I don't want it there. Call me the barrier buster. I want concrete explanations for otherwise intuitive/ephemeral movement and sensing and contacting.

OK, sorry if that sounded like a continuation of our fierce conversation.. [IMG]smile.gif[/IMG]
<hr> Posted by Christophb (Member # 3884) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,26,15,25,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-09-2005 22:25<noscript>September 26, 2005 03:25 PM</noscript>:

I was paying attention to how I have been performing SC and I tend to view it in a different fashion although much of what Diane is stating is probably happening. I Just make space for the movement to express itself and wait. I did it to some tai chi buddies of mine and they were able to provide excellent feedback as to when I was neutral and when I was leading... the difference wasn't much. At least for myself I walk a fine line of egoic coercion and acceptance. Gentle coercion is still coercion.

Chris
<hr> Posted by Luke R (Member # 3561) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,26,16,47,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-09-2005 23:47<noscript>September 26, 2005 04:47 PM</noscript>:

"When the hand is on the concentrically contracting side, the sense is that movement is being blocked even though it isn't really, one feels one's own restrictions more rather than these (isometrically contracted) restrictions melting"

It was exactly this sense that made me cognizant of the difference between Barrett's contact and others in the class. I found that this seems to be less of problem when the contact is bilateral or ant & post (eg on the head), however I didn't pay attention to whether Barrett sligthly decreases the contact pressure on the shortening side while maintaining bilateral contact.

The explanations above for why this would be more productive make sense to me.

Luke
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,26,20,2,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 27-09-2005 03:02<noscript>September 26, 2005 08:02 PM</noscript>:

I put it this way:

“The skin is the only organ we can actually handle, and because of that we should know as much as we can about its nature and how our touch leads to sensation and, possibly, an awareness of movement normally below the level of ordinary sensation because any tendency to express it fully rapidly leads us beyond the strict and constricted rules imposed upon us by a culture interested primarily on control. When the skin is deformed, stretch activated ions found in virtually all cells open, allowing an exchange…blah, blah (ten minute lecture covering Sachs and Guharay’s work including the linear relation between membranous tension and potential sensation).

I continue: “Consider this-the skin’s tautness changes with every thought as the underlying musculature that represents the action that expresses the thought contracts in an infinite variety of ways. This variable tautness of the cellular membranes accessible to the mechanical effect of touch means that you can never know how much effect your pressure will have, and, given the unpredictable nature of the consequent reflexive effect you can’t know what will change or in what sequence.

There’s more of course, the significance of Weber-Fechtner, the characteristics of correction, the connection of the nervous system to the skin and other considerations regarding our culture’s attitude toward touch and movement.

I say all of this in an effort to get the therapists to understand that they can’t direct change, only accept and interpret it. I think that if they keep all of this in mind they will not make an effort to consciously manipulate another but rather simply understand that they always have a hold of something literally writhing in their hands.

I suppose that this is why I don’t direct the students as suggested here. I have a sense that any technique suggestions will detract from what we might know-should know. For me, technique follows intuitively the reality of the materials handled, and I’m always concerned that the protocols of technique will eventually hide all of that.

At least, that’s my thinking these days.
<hr> Posted by Sebastian Asselbergs (Member # 174) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,27,5,50,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 27-09-2005 12:50<noscript>September 27, 2005 05:50 AM</noscript>:

Had a lovely experience ruined yesterday. Had a massage - because I can - and the therapist held my head for a little while while talking to me about something (forgot what); my head started to move smoothly to the right and I felt it go further, until she stopped it! It was amazing how annoying that gentle stopsign was. I wanted it and welcomed that motion - weird as it may have been. I have been in "craniosacral hands before (many many years ago) and felt much guiding - this was distinctly different. My feeling is that she let her hands "be" while her brain was paying attention to something completely different. Until she became aware of my motion and stopped it. I told her to just hold and not guide or control, but her hands were much harder. I am now positive that this is what my neck needs. It certainly sounds like SC took place, wonderfully unwittingly, until the brain kicked in on the "wrong" level.
Just thought I'd share my meagre experience...

Barrett, I will HAVE to work out a way to set you up for a weekend here! I may even get SJ to come.
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,27,6,11,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 27-09-2005 13:11<noscript>September 27, 2005 06:11 AM</noscript>:

Sebastian,

As you know, Cuyahoga Falls is only four hours away-an hour in the air and then three hours in the Toronto airport. I think I can do it.

What you've described is the ease with which we all might employ the principles of the method as well as how easy it is to get in the patient's way if we don't know enough about how the system actually works. I'd like to think that I supply enough information during the first hour's lecture to "unleash" the technique from the therapist and I think the people from Nanaimo would agree.

I think it would help at this point to read "Body Counseling" on my site and perhaps give it to the one who was massaging you. Who knows? You might not need me to actually appear at all.
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,27,7,6,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 27-09-2005 14:06<noscript>September 27, 2005 07:06 AM</noscript>:

Sebastian, it's more fun to see and hear Barrett in action, and I recommend you insist he bring his harmonica so you can hear him play "If I Only Had a Brain." I think you are right, that what came out of you was that spontaneous movement that Barrett is so keen on educating PTs about.

Barrett, I know you don't want to "dumb down" your teaching by mentioning things as prosaic as hand placement on the lengthening side. Quite possibly you weren't even aware that you do that, because of your fondness for preserving intuitiveness in movement and treatment; now that you have had that specific detail of your own handling highlighted to you, made conscious, I wonder if you'll consider consciously adding awareness of it to your teaching.

I appreciate your concern that such a capitulation might encourage or tip the profession toward further lack of scholarly intellect. However I think you'd agree;
a) such a tipping point doesn't really exist in PT. PT has always been applied science and most people in it/attracted to it aren't particularly scholarly in the sense of having a wide range and decent depth of knowlege in many areas of thought;
b) many learning styles exist; most people may need to get that little kinesthetic piece into their own bodies, their own felt experience before they can get excited enough to read up on Sachs and Guharay’s work and Weber-Fechtner, sociological aspects, etc. Simple Contact is a lot less annoying to the nervous system and therapist/patient interface when done smoothly, properly, than most other techniques around. When done well, it leads to all the luscious "characteristics of correction" you've described.

Brains and hands unfamiliar with your style need correct conceptual programming before the "intuitive handling" can "fully emerge" and give the handler any true sense of efficacy or willingness to commit to your "method of care." I hope you will consider adding just this one tiny piece to your teaching. I know it doesn't excite you personally, but I bet it would dry out the kindling within your classes so that the students in them can catch fire more easily.
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,27,7,41,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 27-09-2005 14:41<noscript>September 27, 2005 07:41 AM</noscript>:

Diane,

I agree, and I can't imagine not mentioning this observation of yours in the future.

I certainly would like to see more therapists on fire.
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,27,8,46,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 27-09-2005 15:46<noscript>September 27, 2005 08:46 AM</noscript>:

Barrett,

I'm so pleased that you agree, and that you will be mentioning it in your classes from now on.

By the way, I want to reiterate to all readers that it was our own Nanaimo Experience "Aus-teo-path", Luke, who first observed this highly important detail, not me.

I can practically feel the kindling drying out already..
<hr> Posted by Sebastian Asselbergs (Member # 174) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,27,13,40,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 27-09-2005 20:40<noscript>September 27, 2005 01:40 PM</noscript>:

Barrett, thanks for that pointer - I will give it to her, but that does not take away that I need to organize SC here. I have probably become complacent in my work - as periodically seems to happen in my practice - and having a "hands-on but -off" experience and guiding, looks like it's something I can rally use. Plus - I am still curious as all get out....
<hr> Posted by mieke (Member # 5598) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,27,22,33,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 28-09-2005 05:33<noscript>September 27, 2005 10:33 PM</noscript>:

Update from Mieke ( I was one of the patients at the Nainamo course).The effects from my treatment have been of a lasting nature. The whole treatment was a very positive experience, even when I moved through some painful areas.
I did not feel Barrett putting more or less pressure onto my skin. I felt he was there with me, as curious as I was where the ideomotion would take me next. No judgement, just awareness and sensitivity. My solitary pursuit of ideomotion is defenitly not as effective as it is with a therapist( Barrett)applying SC.
The movements are faster. Going through areas where there is pain I found my mind kick in and stop the ideomotion. In class Barrett was doing Sc and I went straight through that painfull area. It is gone now. It was my neck and throat.
My neck has better range and my throat is much softer. Thanks again Barrett.
Mieke.
<hr> Posted by mieke (Member # 5598) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,27,22,54,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 28-09-2005 05:54<noscript>September 27, 2005 10:54 PM</noscript>:

Diane
I think Physiotherapists (concrete thinkers)will be able to learn from Barrett how he teaches now.
The fact that it is presented in this unique way will open up their brain along different pathways, new areas, surprise and wondering. The concrete part will have a holliday (but only untill you follow the suggested reading by Barrett). In the mean time they will learn that if you put your hands on somebodies skin and you listen with your skin, you can hear what they tell you and they can hear you too.
About the handplacement order. I don't think there is one. It (SC),the ideomotion is never the same. Which part of the body is ready to express the ideomotion is never the same or same in order. So, I follow my hands where they want to go, be surprised by where they go, don't think, don't judge. If ideomotion starts in few seconds, great. If not I go somewhere else (no thinking.)All this is how we learn to be more intuitive and it too comes with practise.
We then can use our concrete mind alot better since it had a rest.Mieke.
<hr> Posted by Eric Matheson (Member # 2368) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,27,23,48,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 28-09-2005 06:48<noscript>September 27, 2005 11:48 PM</noscript>:

I tend to agree with Mieke regarding the hand placement, though Luke's observation is very interesting. To me it seems the hands move around just enough to stay in contact, but also to stay out of the way. Not knowing how far an agonist contraction might travel it only seems logical to move your contact to the antagonist side.

Eric
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,28,0,2,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 28-09-2005 07:02<noscript>September 28, 2005 12:02 AM</noscript>:

I see the point you are making, Meike and Eric, but I must disagree. We're talking about a teaching situation, where nothing is set yet and commitment hasn't been formed, kinesthetically. I think priming the pump a little bit, conceptually, would do nothing to detract from the experience of seamless flowing motion derived from effortless intuitive handling after the learning curve. So I stick with my original assertion, that including all the learning styles would result in the greater good. Remember also that most of us had to (and will have to, in future classes) practice on each other, for better or worse. A well timed clue on handling leads to a greater sense of efficacy, and will result in fewer mistakes on the part of the "handler." A more appreciated felt sense for the one performing the role of the "patient" will help them to give more accurate feedback to the one learning to "handle." It's not a criticism of Barrett, it's a suggestion for how to maximize this really good strategy for pain relief and maximize its spread. It might be kinesthetic, but it's still a meme. It won't catch on without accuracy, so that people get how good it really can feel.

Everything always ends up being more complicated than it looks, even tying shoelaces, or knitting, or riding a bicycle. However innocuous simple contact may be, we are still handling, and trying to maximize optimal motor output from, a human nervous system. I do assert therefore that if you are learning to drive in a Ferrari you need coaching to learn not to grind the gears.
[IMG]smile.gif[/IMG] ,
Diane
<hr> Posted by Luke R (Member # 3561) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,28,0,59,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 28-09-2005 07:59<noscript>September 28, 2005 12:59 AM</noscript>:

Eric, Mieke
"... but also to stay out of the way "

When one's principle contact is on the lengthening side, it is out of the way. When, for example, my head turned right and you then moved your hand from my right shoulder gently to my right ear, or when I felt I was rolling onto my right side and you placed your hand on my anterior left shoulder, then I felt acutely inhibited and movement stopped. This did not occur at anytime with Barrett's contact and that is when I started to watch for his placement. I noticed for example that when a patient begins to roll over Barrett places his hands on the posterior aspect of the shoulder, or thorax, or pelvis that is lifting from the bench. I think this is more than 'interesting'.

As for whether this should be a formal instruction, well that is up to Barrett of course. Personally, I think that if one follows the suggestion to wait a few seconds and move on if nothing happens, then providing that one is carefully observant, it would not take long to work out when and how a movement has been inhibited or promoted. However, as Diane points out, different learning styles must be accounted for.

By the way Barrett, my left leg still rolls easily into external rotation when I lay supine (after 15 years or so of remaing in neutral).

Luke
<hr> Posted by Sarah C. (Member # 4115) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,28,15,41,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 28-09-2005 22:41<noscript>September 28, 2005 03:41 PM</noscript>:

I tend to agree with Mieke and Eric (sorry Diane). As much as I would like to help reach more people with Simple Contact and bring it to a more concrete place, I think the moment you give instructions for it like "place your hands on the lengthening side", you are instructing the therapist to DO something....when they should be doing nothing.
(I'm always reminded of Seinfeld when I hear Barrett say "do nothing".....it was a show about "nothing" after all)
Through patient (in both senses of the word) practice, one learns how to intuitively handle people. If you inhibit the movement, you will know it, and then you just try not to do that again.
Luke, Barrett's handling felt better to you because he has much more practice doing nothing.....that doesn't mean we should start telling people to do something....we should tell them to stop thinking so much and feel.
Sarah (a.k.a. Yoda)
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,28,16,26,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 28-09-2005 23:26<noscript>September 28, 2005 04:26 PM</noscript>:

[IMG]smile.gif[/IMG] Sarah, point taken.. however, I don't think it would wreck the "nothingness" of the handling if participants were told to do their "nothing" contact on the lengthening side and do "less than nothing" on the shortening side.
<hr> Posted by Christophb (Member # 3884) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,28,17,53,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 29-09-2005 00:53<noscript>September 28, 2005 05:53 PM</noscript>:

I'm one of those therapists whose head would have exploded if I were told to contact the lengthening side etc. I'm glad though that Diane thinks the way she does so I don't have to.

By the way, I seam to have trouble with performing SC on the legs, are they just harder to let go of consciously? Probably depends on the individual, but if anyone has any suggestions I'd be up for them.

Chris (on his second week of getting strange looks)
<hr> Posted by Luke R (Member # 3561) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,28,19,23,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 29-09-2005 02:23<noscript>September 28, 2005 07:23 PM</noscript>:

Sarah,
I didn't say I thought people should be told what to do. In fact I agree that being giving space to 'grind a few gears' is a very useful learning experience. I have only made an observation of Barrett's (more practiced) intuition. For my NS anyway, a big differenece in his intuitive handling was this observation. And as I mentioned, there were exceptions.

This won't stop me from experiementing anyway. I don't mind the sound of griding metal [IMG]wink.gif[/IMG]

Luke
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,28,19,47,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 29-09-2005 02:47<noscript>September 28, 2005 07:47 PM</noscript>:

Chris,

I spend a lot of time simply leaving my hands rest beneath the heels, sensing often invisible rotations or shortenings/lengthenings of the lower limbs, typically sensed by the patient well into the torso and even the head. You didn't get to see me do much of this in class, and, as I recall, the movement I got on the models there was rather dramatic.

But the small stuff is there-with some patience and focus on the characteristics of correction (which say nothing about the size of the movement) you'll find it.
<hr> Posted by Christophb (Member # 3884) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,28,20,4,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 29-09-2005 03:04<noscript>September 28, 2005 08:04 PM</noscript>:

Thanks Barrett, that helps out quite a bit. I was going for the big moves and was getting a little frustrated when it wasn't happening... in my mind it was "3 seconds no big move, move on" I think I am now starting to feel the persons NS writhing under the skin and I suspect this is what you are talking about, I'll be more patient and see what happens. So far my clients have been pleased with SC, some are a little sceptical because of the lack of "effort" on my part and lack of attention to detail. It almost feels like this blocks any expression of ideomotion in of them. One interesting fellow I saw was a martial artist who "never telegraphed" When I put my hands on him I felt utter stilness... he was in a lot of discomfort.

Chris
<hr> Posted by yves (Member # 177) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,8,30,1,4,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 30-09-2005 08:04<noscript>September 30, 2005 01:04 AM</noscript>:

Hi folks:

Ideomotor movement on land,sea and in space.

After the Nanaimo SC experience, I went to Edmonton to visit my parents who as I, are getting on in age.

On the fast ferry back to Nanaimo, I was outside on the second level with a rescued dog being very still as the wind blew through my fleece jacket and vest.

As the ferry moved onto more open watere, the vessel would roll from side to side and pitch forward and backwards. Being as still as possible, trying to stay warm, it was interesting to observe my neck and head adjusting to the ships movements.

Can we do SC while on the sea, as the ship moves about? Is SC occuring for the Astronauts when floating about in space especially when they are still?

In the more practical world:

Day one: post total knee replacement...... I find that if I have the patient begin to roll their trunk from side to side in bed and allow them to rock their hips from side to side, this seeems to get rid of much pain in their leg. As well I try to focus on belly breathing.

In sitting, with their operative leg partially flexed on the floor, I encourage them to do a lot of hip and trunk movements " On their own time" when ever they feel they need pain control.

This seems to soften the thigh and allow them to do a lot of rocking on the heels, which every time they dorsiflex the foot, this is accompanied with associated knee flexion. As they move their feet to either side, this promotes medial and lateral rotation of the tibia on the femur, which seems to allow for noted improved spontaneous knee flexion.

I encourage them to reach down their legs with both hands, down the front of their legs, and to the sides of their legs, and as often and as far as they want. Some of the movements this little old lady did, completely surprised me, much the same way as some of my class mates in Nanaimo were moving.

When the foot and ankle movements become easy, I get them to use both hands and lift up the distal thigh so that the foot slides passively into more flexion. I find that if I as them to actively flex the knee, then the wrong nervous system message is sent to the leg, and guarded muscular activity occurs which is hard to change after.

I beleive that Idie eomotor movement is responsible for the results patients produce, both in terms of pain control, muscular softening, and surprising and effortless motion.

Finally I had a lady with noted bilateral leg swelling, and hypersensitivity to even the lightest touch of her legs. I think she had some infection of the blood or something of the sort.

She would scream in pain if I passively lifted the back of her knee off the bed.

I encouraged her to rock her trunk and hips from side to side, and she went on to actively flex her knees and finally sit her self up from supine lying. With encouragement of belly breathing she when on to walk ten feet, which was very surprizing to all as she had been bed ridden for a few days.

Again, it seems that encouraging her to " Rock on",or move in a creative and safe manner, freed her up.

Perhaps I should simply tell my out patients to have a few beers and go do some rock and roll, where ones creative movements are accepted and encouraged.

You must not try line dancing, or gitter bug, etc as they are are all choreographed and culturely sensitive, as people try to see if you are in step.

I remember in the old days of Saturday night fever where one would mobilize a knee in P A glides to said music.

Finally, Ideomotor movement probably is created at the height of Orgasm, when one's culture and guard is set asside and the body moves in its most natural rhythm.

Nothing and nothing will ever be the same.

Have a great day,

yves
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,2,18,52,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 03-10-2005 01:52<noscript>October 02, 2005 06:52 PM</noscript>:

I'm back in Vancouver with Diane after 2200 km in a comfy minbus in Alberta and BC. I am not yet in heavy posting mood (still stunned by the Rockies), but practised SC quite a few times....

When one is a mountain-nut as I am, I spent an enormous amount of time looking out the window on the (R) side of the bus; so my neck/brain became annoyed with this sustained rotation. So, I touched the (R) side of the neck and just wandered (rotated) to the left side of the neck effortlessly; once was enough. Then, on other occasions, I tried to rotate to the left without the contact on the (R) side; it was an effort, and ROM was restricted.

So Luke's point, made way back in this thread, is highly significant. Eccentric 'work', lengthening, and all that.

It makes perfect sense....and such simple stuff.
OK my neck is considered 'normal' and I do not have chronic pain..but I don't think that matters.
Once the concept of neurophysiology is under the belt (or in the brain), the application, within some limits as mentioned by Barrett such as pathology, is out to the horizon and perhaps beyond.

Yves -

I went on the Lynx back to Vancouver and experienced the lovely pitch and putt of the ocean swell; to me it was like riding a horse - the body just goes with the motion, without any effort, it just follows the external 'contact'...

But until the Nanaimo experience, I did not recognise it for what it is.

Cheers from wet Vancouver


Nari.
<hr> Posted by Eric Matheson (Member # 2368) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,2,20,3,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 03-10-2005 03:03<noscript>October 02, 2005 08:03 PM</noscript>:

Yves, you should have been a comedian!

Eric
<hr> Posted by Jon Newman (Member # 3148) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,2,20,26,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 03-10-2005 03:26<noscript>October 02, 2005 08:26 PM</noscript>:

Eric, I agree. Yves, you're too much. I meant to post this earlier but forgot.

audio link

jon
<hr> Posted by Luke R (Member # 3561) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,2,21,29,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 03-10-2005 04:29<noscript>October 02, 2005 09:29 PM</noscript>:

The Link Master strikes again. Brilliant.

Luke
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,3,7,52,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 03-10-2005 14:52<noscript>October 03, 2005 07:52 AM</noscript>:

Nari says: "It makes perfect sense....and such simple stuff."

Many insightful comments have been made since Nanaimo and I appreciate all of them-but this; to simply acknowledge that I have offered something that represents all that science attempts to do- to make sense of things, not prove them, not to claim success, not to herald the end of thoughtfulness-only to make sense, well, this means a lot to me.

Thanks Nari.
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,3,13,15,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 03-10-2005 20:15<noscript>October 03, 2005 01:15 PM</noscript>:

Sarah

I can see your point about the hand being placed in a certain position, thus guiding/choreographing a movement...but it is not like that at all.
What do we do when we get, for example, a headache or some kind of pain somewhere or the other? We tend to touch the area; it is not a conscious movement, we do not think "I hurt, therefore I will touch". In the same way, another person's hand in SC is quite unobtrusive - it does not guide, resist or push, it follows.

And when the effortless movement flows along its own effortless way, the hand/s can go away altogether. Effortless, however, is not synonymous with 'pain experience'....

I was convinced, on the first day, that I was being guided by the Hand. That was because I was not 'recognising' the movement as ideomotor.

Barrett

There is a wellknown, respected scientist who said exactly what you said about ..'making sense of' and not 'proving' things. Cannot recall who it was at present, but it was either Dennett or Dawkins..which makes one wonder why physiotherapists develop such angst about 'proof' when even the rocket scientists argue this is extremely difficult to achieve - but making sense of a process so that it is possible to move along from 'a' ----> hopefully 'z', should be achievable.


Nari (on Diane's login)
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,3,13,37,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 03-10-2005 20:37<noscript>October 03, 2005 01:37 PM</noscript>:

Nari,

Most therapists have never heard of either Dennett or Dawkins, so they wouldn't be familiar with this description of science. As I mentioned at dinner there one evening, the science education in my own culture leaves something to be desired.

I may have worded it more strongly than that.
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,3,13,57,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 03-10-2005 20:57<noscript>October 03, 2005 01:57 PM</noscript>:

Barrett

That topic on science education may have occured at Earl's where there was a remarkable division of males and females; and I thought I was back in Oz at a barbecue where male and female division often happens.....but jon did his best to amend that particular separation.
So I may have missed that topic.


Nari
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,6,14,6,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 06-10-2005 21:06<noscript>October 06, 2005 02:06 PM</noscript>:

I heard from Nari this morning, she arrived home safely and is catching up on sleep.
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,7,5,36,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 07-10-2005 12:36<noscript>October 07, 2005 05:36 AM</noscript>:

It was certainly a Nanaimo experience, but all round those three weeks were an Experience I won't forget.
Pity about having to travel in flying sardine cans to get there and back.....

I have plans to write up the Simple Contact experience, when I stop falling asleep over the keyboard.

Nari
<hr> Posted by Yogi (Member # 3083) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,12,8,46,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 12-10-2005 15:46<noscript>October 12, 2005 08:46 AM</noscript>:

Barrett, how was the San Antonio class. I couldn't get off work to go (staffing issue). Where I work it would not be considered applicable, so no employer support. But personally, I assure you I would attend for the learning and the experience. The opportunity may be missed forever, now, and I regret that could be so.
So, was there good attendance, were you received well, was it typical, a few comments for my curiosity, if you would. Thanks.
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,12,9,15,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 12-10-2005 16:15<noscript>October 12, 2005 09:15 AM</noscript>:

Yogi,

Sorry you couldn't make it.

I don't recall anything special about the class. As usual they were very quiet and unprepared. Two massage therapists went to my web site beforehand but none of the twenty PTs there had. If I'm not mistaken, this was the class in which not a single person had ever heard of Butler of Jules Rothstein. Maybe one had, but no more than that.

Haven't heard from any of the PTs since though the MTs wrote a nice letter.

I should return in about a year.
<hr> Posted by Yogi (Member # 3083) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,12,15,31,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 12-10-2005 22:31<noscript>October 12, 2005 03:31 PM</noscript>:

Wow. Thanks, Barrett. I'll make sure I'm prepared at least to be there when you make it back.
<hr> Posted by Randy Dixon (Member # 3445) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,13,2,38,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 13-10-2005 09:38<noscript>October 13, 2005 02:38 AM</noscript>:

Barrett,

My wife also wasn't able to make it. She tore her ACL and is hobbling around on crutches, which is bad enough but we still had plans to go, but then she had a therapist take emergency leave so she had to stay and cover. I guess we'll catch you next year or maybe our travels will intersect.
<hr> Posted by kdmorgan (Member # 5636) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,17,22,36,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 18-10-2005 05:36<noscript>October 17, 2005 10:36 PM</noscript>:

I really enjoyed the SC workshop in Naniamo. The right sided neck tension that I have had for atleast 5 years is gone. The Monday back at work I was walking along and noticing that neither did I have any thoracic back pain! Now if I note tension building I try to spend some time doing ideomotor movement.
I tried SC with any number of people in the first week as I came home excited and pumped. My client base is Rehab - CVA's and some head injury people. I used SC with several of the CVA's and concluded that it made them feel better but I think I will save this till later in their recovery. One client did say that her body felt like her own again for about 12 hours - she has high tone in her arm with very little motor control and moderate tone with very mixed recovery in the leg ( right hemi)
So... I have been having a go at friends and staff. Most are willing to be touched but I have been surprised at how restrained they are in their movements. There has been alot of repetative movement - circling shoulders and forearms - not much that was unique - I have afew people feeling that they got enough from the experience to continue on their own at home - so will keep in touch with them.
Kathie
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,18,5,40,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 18-10-2005 12:40<noscript>October 18, 2005 05:40 AM</noscript>:

Kathie,

Hang in there. Too bad your practice isn't quite suited for this. Waiting to hear from your classmates who went back to look at their patients in pain in a new way.

Your friend's restraint probably is a function of the sort of permission you are willing to give. In any case, please remember that the characteristics of correction include nothing about the drama of the motion. Are you getting the four I talk about?
<hr> Posted by Christophb (Member # 3884) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,18,11,5,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 18-10-2005 18:05<noscript>October 18, 2005 11:05 AM</noscript>:

Well, it it would figure that after I posted about the marvelous success I was having with simple contact that life steps in to offer a challenge. I guess I have to post just to air out some frustrations about practicing SC. I'm not frustrated with the method by any means, just the environment I have to grow it in. I'm struggling with people wanting to be helpful and assist with productive movement. There is also a fair amount of people who look at me as if to say "is that all you're doing?" like they are so conditioned to more being better. They all feel warmer and softer but I continue to get the "how can I get stronger" group and "will pilates help?" or "but it really feels like I need to stretch it out" and of course "the other therapist told me to ice it and my posture was bad causing my pain." Just one of those days I guess. Anyone have experiences such as this and any useful suggestions? At times it feels like I'm tring to reverse a ship going full tilt... there seems to be a lot of momentum bound up in old theories. GRRRR
Chris
<hr> Posted by SJBird55 (Member # 3236) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,18,11,58,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 18-10-2005 18:58<noscript>October 18, 2005 11:58 AM</noscript>:

Is it patient theories or patient expectations? Do the patients care about "warmer" or "softer?"

No, I don't understand fully Simple Contact, but I'd say from a "sales" perspective, I'd bet that if you spent the time explaining what you hope to accomplish, what that will mean to the patient and how that ties in to what the patient wants, you'll make just as good inroads as the "posture/pain" explanations.
<hr> Posted by Christophb (Member # 3884) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,18,12,33,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 18-10-2005 19:33<noscript>October 18, 2005 12:33 PM</noscript>:

In my little experience warmer and softer = feeling better, at least that's what they report. The problem i'm having is that they think "is that all? Shouldn't I be engaging in some complex form of exercise?" I'm not sure that I understand your last statement, but education is included. But I feel like I'm educating someone that the world is round while everyone else around them is telling them it's flat. Even when I take them out on the boat to show them they wont fall off the edge, it seem s they come back in and someone whispers "maybe you didn't go out far enough" I suppose I would have to take them and their friends clear to the other side of the ocean to get them to see. This isn't a problem with everyone by the way

Chris
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,18,14,45,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 18-10-2005 21:45<noscript>October 18, 2005 02:45 PM</noscript>:

Chris,

Welcome to my world.

A neighbor of mine recently began attending care for a chronic backache associated with lower quarter pain and tingling. There's some true weakness in the dorsiflexors and he's two years removed from a microdiscectomy. He's a high school teacher. He was told to seek care from me by friends I have apparently helped.

I've seen him three times and been able to demonstrate each time that despite the fact that he remains standing as we work, his pain can be markedly relieved with his own ideomotion. Prior to that he was certain he couldn't stand without acute discomfort, growing through the day, and I saw him in the late afternoon. As he moved his tingling sensation diminished along with the pain and his foot grew warm.

He demonstrated the ability to do this without my touching him at each visit and I augmented this with the exercises you learned in class, dramatically improving his resting posture and painful hip extension. His pain diminishes after ten seconds of the initial motion.

He has yet, after three weeks, to do a single thing on his own that I have suggested though he pleasantly assures me that he plans to "in the future." His relief has not endured beyond a few hours.

Yesterday he didn't come in due to "car trouble" and didn't schedule another appointment.

My questions: Have I failed? Is this guy a fair candidate for a case study? Do I need to work another thirty years in an effort to figure out how to motivate this man? Should I try some other form of care?
<hr> Posted by kdmorgan (Member # 5636) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,18,22,29,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-10-2005 05:29<noscript>October 18, 2005 10:29 PM</noscript>:

Barrett - maybe you have to charge more for treatments. I seems that if something is too simple or too inexpensive that people just don't trust that it is going to be helpful. I had a patient who was appalled that ongoing physio was going to cost her. However she went out and put cash on numerous other treatments that were more costly. As you said in the course other treatments often sell hope more than the cure. Kathie
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,18,22,44,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-10-2005 05:44<noscript>October 18, 2005 10:44 PM</noscript>:

Kathie, your post rings many bells. I have had countless people attend public health physiotherapy because they told the doctor they could not afford private physio. At the same time they spend up to $100 per week on massage and other interventions.
I think there is a message here for us, but I don't know what it is. A guess is the expectation that they will have to 'do' something, whereas many other interventions are passive.

I don't think we 'fail'in the usual sense; in all aspects of dealing with people, we can't please everyone; and not everyone wants to be assisted or advised on how to feel better.


Nari
<hr> Posted by SJBird55 (Member # 3236) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,19,5,49,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-10-2005 12:49<noscript>October 19, 2005 05:49 AM</noscript>:

Barrett, if his relief hasn't endured more than a few hours, are you really getting the results that you want? Short term relief is nice, but long term is the goal, right?
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,19,5,55,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-10-2005 12:55<noscript>October 19, 2005 05:55 AM</noscript>:

I have never, never claimed that ideomotion produces prolonged relief if done once for a few moments. One visit without continuation of corrective movement as is uniquely necessary for each patient is never going to be enough and all my patients know this-including this guy.
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,19,7,58,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-10-2005 14:58<noscript>October 19, 2005 07:58 AM</noscript>:

Long term is definitely the goal. Impressing on patients that getting painfree might take them 2 or 3 days post treatment is key. I tell them they have to be their own therapist, a little bit frequently, for that length of time, then less frequently after that.

For l-o-n-g term relief, it takes a little hit of corrective movement, (about 30 seconds), done once an hour (never further apart than 2 hours) during waking hours, done faithfully in that crucial first 48 hours after a treatment session. After that the frequency can drop. (By day three the cerebellum has the new 'big picture' and can incorporate a lot of the corrective movement more unconsciously again.) There is that pesky delayed time thing to cope with, while the brain has to be "reprogrammed"... same with any motor skill. I convince people that this phase is so important that they have to get up from their desks, (set a timer, whatever..) and do it at work. Even if they get funny looks from their coworkers. I suggest they teach their coworkers to move too, to keep them out of practitioner offices.

Also there's the not so slight matter of looking after oxygenating the physical nerves while the abnormal impulse generating sites are being dismantled, which isn't complete until day three according to Butler.

I give the patients this rationale for why its important to stick with it for the first few days, also why their "pain" won't be gone or decreased in a permanant way until day three at the earliest, that it will rollercoaster until then, but to do their movement anyway. I usually do a followup and we move on to the next layer if necessary.

Usually the patient reports improvement, big time. If not, I start to worry a bit and red flag them in my mind. Sometimes they'll report no improvement, but when I probe a bit they'll say something like, 'Well. I still have pain but I noticed that I can sleep on that side now, haven't been able to do that for 2 years..' functional stuff.
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,19,11,44,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 19-10-2005 18:44<noscript>October 19, 2005 11:44 AM</noscript>:

Diane,

I certainly agree. My personal tendency is to dump more responsibility on the patient-have them discover how often they need to correct for the unique mechanical stresses placed on their systems.

I'm weak on giving directions, and I'm pretty certain that this is a reflection of my own inability take direction. This is unlikely to change.
<hr> Posted by SJBird55 (Member # 3236) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,22,7,13,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 22-10-2005 14:13<noscript>October 22, 2005 07:13 AM</noscript>:

See Barrett... there is the explanation for not doing anything in the outcome area... the stubbornness you have. That comment right there makes more sense to me than any of the other excuses you have written in regard to not being interested in doing an outcome study. Good attitude to have - don't do something that could help the field out because others have been asking you to do it. Go ahead and be cantankerous - I mean, you're going around and doing continuing eduation, that's applaudable - you're reaching more masses than sitting at the computer. What a selfish, crap reason! Now that the lightbulb went off in my head, what a purely ridiculous reason to not do anything to substantiate your theory/approach. You know what? I'm actually disgusted with that kind of reasoning. I've always been a bit envious, because you actually have a theory or an approach that you can "test" and collect data and do something with (publish)... me, I have nothing. All I do is go in to work, do what I do and do my best. I have nothing special to offer to our field. UGGGHHH... I could never understand why you never went that next step and took your work further... and you're truly not doing it because of some stupid personal trait. Nah, don't change... you sit there, you do your continuing ed circuit and heaven forbid taking direction or suggestions from anyone. Hold your stubbornness and lack of taking direction from others close - that characteristic is important not to lose. Your selfishness has a higher priority to you than patients. I'm done arguing with you - if you ever do decide to do something in the outcome area, I'd be willing to help get you started, but I'm basically done discussing the whole concept with you. Putting yourself first and your inability to change explains a lot to me.
<hr> Posted by Luke R (Member # 3561) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,22,8,30,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 22-10-2005 15:30<noscript>October 22, 2005 08:30 AM</noscript>:

SJ,

Barrett has offered a life of honest work with only the expectation that it is considered. This is not the act of a selfish person.

You said once that you put considerable effort into being who you are. Do you expect others to be other than who they are?

Luke
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,22,8,38,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 22-10-2005 15:38<noscript>October 22, 2005 08:38 AM</noscript>:

Somebody please pinch me. I think I might be dreaming.

I'm now considering changing the name of this thread to "Nanaimo's Gift."

Thank you, thank you, thank you. All I ask is that you don't take it back.
<hr> Posted by Jon Newman (Member # 3148) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,22,14,11,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 22-10-2005 21:11<noscript>October 22, 2005 02:11 PM</noscript>:

quote: <hr> ...you actually have a theory ... me, I have nothing. <hr>

Actually I think you do have a theory. You collect facts from patients and since there seems to be an endless supply of potential facts to collect, something guides you to which ones are important. This is essentially your theory or approach.

If you're unhappy with your theory (versus unhappy in general) then it may be because you feel you are paying attention to irrelevant facts or unaware of what the relevant ones are.

I think this is one of the appeals of CPRs in that they seem to tell us what the important facts (of the facts considered) are. The problem with them is they don't say why the facts are important, that's up to the basic sciences or rational thought. I'm struggling to find people in PT who seem to think these are important attributes--at least as much as the wonderful outcome research our profession is producing. I also think knowing why is what would set PT apart from other competing professions (i.e. the education needed to understand would lead you to be a PT degree).

jon
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,22,15,21,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 22-10-2005 22:21<noscript>October 22, 2005 03:21 PM</noscript>:

SJ

Quote: "...me, I have nothing."

If that is true, you are saying you have nothing to offer the PT profession. I don't believe that is the case, for any of us.
Barrett has a passion for education and teaching of a theory, and that is not a selfish attitude.
You have a passion for outcomes. Do something with that intensity, rather than complain about others' efforts. You might find it enjoyable.


Nari
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,22,16,14,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 22-10-2005 23:14<noscript>October 22, 2005 04:14 PM</noscript>:

SJ,
"..stubbornness, excuses, cantankerous, selfish, crap, ridiculous, disgusted, stupid personal trait, lack of taking direction from others, selfishness, inability to change..."

I think this is off track, out of bounds, ad hominem. I hope an apology is forthcoming.
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,22,16,21,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 22-10-2005 23:21<noscript>October 22, 2005 04:21 PM</noscript>:

Diane,

While I appreciate the sentiment, there's nothing new here, and I'd be much happier with the silence I've been promised.
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,22,16,56,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 22-10-2005 23:56<noscript>October 22, 2005 04:56 PM</noscript>:

If an apology not to you then Barrett, to the board. If not for your sake, for her own. It takes a lot to shock me, and I feel a bit shocked, frankly, reading all that vituperativeness and unfavorable (to herself) comparison from someone as obviously bright and knowlegeable as SJ.

I would love to know (but it's none of my business) what or who Barrett represents in SJ's psyche. Whoever or whatever, it's some bit that while hard to assimilate, will one day have to be.
<hr> Posted by Christophb (Member # 3884) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,22,20,17,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 23-10-2005 03:17<noscript>October 22, 2005 08:17 PM</noscript>:

I have nothing much to add, but, I find Barrett far from selfish. I also wonder how an outcomes study would change the practice of simple contact? The patients are happy, in less pain, and functioning well. I can explain what is happening and why and it makes sense to them and I. What else do I need?
Chris
<hr> Posted by SJBird55 (Member # 3236) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,22,20,41,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 23-10-2005 03:41<noscript>October 22, 2005 08:41 PM</noscript>:

Apologize for what? The truth? One apologizes when one is sorry for one's actions. I'm not one bit sorry for how I feel or what I now believe based on Barrett's post up there. Barrett stated that little bit about himself, and well, Barrett, you blew my mind because for someone who has passion, it really is sad that what holds you back from contributing so much more is stubborness.

It's a waste of my time to attempt to argue my logic and argue the importance of outcomes when now I learn that you don't like to take direction from anyone. I won't be arguing with you regarding my view. Barrett, I now comprehend you more than I ever did before. I understand your view so much more clearly now. I completely disagree with it, but I definitely understand. The fighting, the bantering, the arguing, the intense discussions - they won't be any more from me, unless I'm trying to understand something. So, yes, Barrett, you'll have a lot more silence from me.

If there is something that someone can do that may be for the overall good of many and that someone chooses not to take that action for a reason of downright stubbornness, well, I stand by my post. I truly feel that way. I was not comparing myself to Barrett at all. Barrett represents nothing in my psyche. All these years of me not understanding, seeing worth in what could be published, hoping something could be published... that above post enlightened me to such a degree that I now know reality. I actually should say "thanks." I'm glad I now understand more fully that no matter how I attempt to convince you of the importance of something that you're never going to consider it. I can take the hope that I've had all these years and put it aside and think about other things. That brick wall that I've been hitting is there, always will be and it's not coming down. I was shocked to learn why that wall is there, but it is what it is. Barrett, you should have said something about yourself a long time ago and you wouldn't have had this hopeful, persistent, pesky SJ digging at you.
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,22,21,23,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 23-10-2005 04:23<noscript>October 22, 2005 09:23 PM</noscript>:

SJ

If in your search for truth (as you define it)you attack anyone who disagrees with your own set criteria - then you may never find it.
Which would be a pity.
However, that is the risk you seem quite prepared to take.

Nari
<hr> Posted by avalon (Member # 4679) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,23,3,10,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 23-10-2005 10:10<noscript>October 23, 2005 03:10 AM</noscript>:

SJ,

You're wrong as I was about Barrett, two years ago.
Consider only the others' words: Luke saw the difference between the common hands placement and his gifted one.

It's very diificult to sense the movements/absence coming from a patient.

I have another way but it's really pleasant when someone tells us that "it's OK, I'm better than 2 minutes ago."
Of course it goes against the traditional knowledge we learnt but is it really important?

Thanks again, Barrett (BTW, it's the first time...)
<hr> Posted by Randy Dixon (Member # 3445) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,23,4,27,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 23-10-2005 11:27<noscript>October 23, 2005 04:27 AM</noscript>:

Barrett,

It looks like you got excited a little too early.
<hr> Posted by Randy Dixon (Member # 3445) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,23,4,42,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 23-10-2005 11:42<noscript>October 23, 2005 04:42 AM</noscript>:

I have to wonder how someone gets to feel they have the right to be so judgemental, not only about people's work, but about the person themselves.

People might have criticism about Barrett or the way he chooses to view things, I do, but the one thing, I at least, can't criticize is his "selfishness". How many other CEU providers try to give away what they sell? SJ's criticisms, like her earlier one's of Drew's work and more importantly his character, remind me of a a (paraphrased) line from my favorite movie "Pride and Prejudice" (which is a bit embarassing for a he-man like myself) "I would have been one of the greatest pianists in England,...if I had ever learned to play".
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,23,6,1,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 23-10-2005 13:01<noscript>October 23, 2005 06:01 AM</noscript>:

Randy

Why is liking "Pride and Prejudice" embarrassing?
It's a great take on what was a very ruthless society; and it has a few lessons in it. (Mind you, I am biased because Colin Firth (in the BBC series) is so yummy..) Darcy is popular to viewers because he is outwardly rude and arrogant, but actually is a gracious, gentle fellow..and that is attractive in a funny way.

Henry - I think that going against traditional knowledge is the only way to progress...science and biology do not stand still while we wait for absolute proof of something's 'validity'.


Nari
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,23,6,15,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 23-10-2005 13:15<noscript>October 23, 2005 06:15 AM</noscript>:

Randy,

Perhaps you're right about my elation being premature. But I think most of that came from my realization that if I didn't delete this post (as I have a few others) people would finally see what it is about this woman's comments I find so offensive. I will say it again: I am inner-directed, not commonly concerned or even cognizant of what others want or will think about my behavior. This isn't narcissism, it's what the Victorians felt and is now unfamiliar to a culture hindered by the latest fashion and, as a poet once said, "full of fidelity to an illusion of form." In my head my own voice is louder than other's. So shoot me.

Your point about trying to give away the same thing I sell is well taken. I tell every class that all that I've said and much, much more is available for free. In Nanaimo I went ahead and gave everyone a CD with my power point presentation on it, and that wasn't included in the cost of the course. I've yet to hear if anyone has used it while presenting to their colleagues. As they say, when something is handed out freely we think it must not be worth much.

Sometimes we're mistaken.
<hr> Posted by Jon Newman (Member # 3148) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,23,6,54,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 23-10-2005 13:54<noscript>October 23, 2005 06:54 AM</noscript>:

I was verbally slated to give an inservice but then we had a change in supervisors and a shift in my own job description so the inservice got moved to not even the back burner but right off the stove.

I've used the disk for some aspect of patient education (some of the pictures are helpful that way).

I'm quite looking forward to the inservice though. Perhaps I'll get the frying pan back on the stove. I'll post once it happens.

jon
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,23,11,32,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 23-10-2005 18:32<noscript>October 23, 2005 11:32 AM</noscript>:

Barrett,
"But I think most of that came from my realization that if I didn't delete this post (as I have a few others) people would finally see what it is about this woman's comments I find so offensive."

I saw what you found offensive. Good thing virtual skin grows back so fast. Also, I see the point/value of letting the post exist as a reminder to all of what sort of stuff can fly out of a brain when it becomes heated by righteousness. There should perhaps be a "museum" section for posts like that (maybe it could be called "The Hall of Flame"), where instead of being deleted they:
1. get framed and featured as examples of underbellies of otherwise reasonably decent, functional minds;
2. where they can provide a cautionary tale for others;
3. where they can provide a source of lasting embarrassment for their provider in later years after more integration has presumably taken hold;
4. until such time as the provider of such odiferous crapolito begs and pleads not to have such a publicity of their true deep thoughts and feelings on display anymore, because even they are shocked by the tone they have produced and loosed upon the world in prose form.

On the chirotalk site there is a section called "cheers and jeers" for just such creative writing.

SJ, if you can't see what you accomplished by writing that sort of stuff, and if you think any good will come out it, and if you think that you're right and that that makes your post "right".. you have a lot more growing up to do my friend. Barrett is not your daddy teaching you how to be competitive.

Now I will stop commenting on this topic and become silent about it as well.
<hr> Posted by SJBird55 (Member # 3236) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,23,16,9,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 23-10-2005 23:09<noscript>October 23, 2005 04:09 PM</noscript>:

"Whatever" is all I can say to all of you. I'm not embarrassed by my thoughts. I'm not ashamed by what I wrote. You all read into stuff so deeply... from the Doc on House to all your analogies to now what I write. There is no deep anything - I was pretty blunt and didn't mince my words. There was no righteousness in my post... I suppose not a single one of you even understand how much Barrett has frustrated me over the years (because I'm stupid enough to allow it). Heaven forbid anyone even attempting to see anything from my view - stay and protect Barrett... but because I have seen the potential value, I know the next step has to be taken in order for Barrett to be taken seriously. It just irritates me that he's never done anything to move his theory forward into the world via research. Oh, you're all right... he doesn't have to. But the world is changing, the world is demanding more than what is being offered. Sorry that I cared... sorry that I saw potential... oh, and it is ridiculous that apparently the main true reason for not moving forward with anything is because it would be perceived as "taking direction" from someone. Heck, I'm not the only one who has stated what should be done - I'm not alone in my beliefs - I'm not alone in my recommendations. It's just that I'm the only one with balls to just come out and say what I'm thinking. There is no tactful way to suggest what someone doesn't want to hear. The battle has been more between Barrett and I than anything else. The battle is over. That bit of honesty by him way up there and my understanding, disbelief and shock of it all puts an end to the battle. Just as Barrett is who he is, well I am who I am. I'm disappointed in Barrett and his reasoning. Who am I though?

Diane, frankly that post was conceding to Barrett. He's won the battle - I'm no longer fighting. But... I wasn't going to concede silently without expressing my thoughts first. Maybe that would have been the more "grown up" thing to do, but it was a decision I made and acted on. What I accomplished was communicating to Barrett that he's not going to have to battle me any more. I'm sure that was "good" for him.

Daddy? competitive? Again... why read so deeply into something so simple.
<hr> Posted by Randy Dixon (Member # 3445) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,24,2,28,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 24-10-2005 09:28<noscript>October 24, 2005 02:28 AM</noscript>:

See?
<hr> Posted by Sebastian Asselbergs (Member # 174) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,24,6,24,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 24-10-2005 13:24<noscript>October 24, 2005 06:24 AM</noscript>:

OK, my take here is that 2 distinct trends in PT are clashing. One, the drive towards stronger outcomes and proof of efficacy, and 2, one of the better developed theories of a segment of physical therapy, SC. I have been learning about both in the last few months, thanks to Barrett, Diane, others, and SJ. In my world, both are very important. Getting better at making a patient population independently better is clinically and professionally essential. Providing generally acceptable evidence of my effectiveness is in this society equally important. Even my patients are asking for "proof". We can not just state that the proof is in "the pudding" - we really are no different than snake oil salesmen - we can also not point them to the physiology and theory: most will have no clue of what we speak of, and it is only theory thus far anyway. Having studies done of ANY KIND will make a significant impact on the resistance in the PT world. I need no convincing that SC is a verey solid theory with excellent potential outcomes, but I would like to see it become more mainstream - and for that, studies of any kind are needed. I know that you, Barrett, do not feel that way, but the physio world will not change without stuff like that, whether you think it's reasonable or not.
Setting aside all emotional aspects of this issue, I for one will miss the debating - I learned from both sides. Call me wishy-washy - I stand by that.
BTW, it IS a bit ironic that when someone expresses personal opinion without censorship, the whole world jumps on them....Diane, ad hominem is exactly what SJ meant - it is impossible express a personal opinion on anyone without being ad hominem ("to the man").
Oh well - I'm done rambling. No doubt another "hot" thread will develop somewhere...
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,24,6,37,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 24-10-2005 13:37<noscript>October 24, 2005 06:37 AM</noscript>:

Sebastian,

I have never, never said that studies of efficacy aren't needed. If you can find a quote from me in this regard please trot it out.

I have repeatedly said that outcome studies are rare for a number of good reasons and that given my training, education and inclination I don't plan on doing one myself. Others here who know how to employ Simple Contact and do studies aren't doing any either. Maybe there's a lesson there.

This woman saw me admit that I don't take direction easily (something I've made clear in a number of ways in the past) and proceeded to vilify my character, claiming that I was keeping something from the profession I could easily provide if I weren't so "selfish" (among other things) This is inappropriate, inaccurate and insulting and has no place on this board. I didn't delete it for reasons already stated.

I'm fairly certain she has found a good deal of comfort in your words.
<hr> Posted by Sebastian Asselbergs (Member # 174) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,24,8,43,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 24-10-2005 15:43<noscript>October 24, 2005 08:43 AM</noscript>:

You are right about the outcome studies remark, Barrett. I should have said that more accurately.

I do not quite see the lesson in SC "users" not doing studies - maybe you can expand on that.

My purpose of stating my views has nothing to do with providing comfort to SJ, and I am a bit surprised that you even mention something about that.

I would never state my opinion with the choice of words of some others. My remark "Diane, ad hominem is exactly what SJ meant - it is impossible express a personal opinion on anyone without being ad hominem ("to the man")." is just pointing out that no matter how vitriolic or polite, a personal opinion of another is just that - a personal opinion of another (ad hominem).
Ok. I'll leave this now.
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,24,10,29,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 24-10-2005 17:29<noscript>October 24, 2005 10:29 AM</noscript>:

Sebastian,

Several posters here along with my former students who only lurk have gone on to use Simple Contact every day. I haven't heard of anybody about even beginning a study. Drew talked about it but to my knowledge has done nothing.

I don't suppose you meant to comfort anybody and what you've said here about ad hominem being a choice you wouldn't make now makes that clear.

Still, I've been reading this board for a while and can easily imagine that your seeing both sides of this issue (absent the personal attacks) would be taken as vindication for everything said by some. I know that these are people who very selectively read, but I have to take them into account.
<hr> Posted by Randy Dixon (Member # 3445) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,25,0,25,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 25-10-2005 07:25<noscript>October 25, 2005 12:25 AM</noscript>:

BTW, it IS a bit ironic that when someone expresses personal opinion without censorship, the whole world jumps on them....Diane, ad hominem is exactly what SJ meant - it is impossible express a personal opinion on anyone without being ad hominem ("to the man").-Sebastian

I don't see the irony. That is not an argument, just a statement. Personal opinion without censorship is exactly the problem, that is normally just called an insult. In the old days that is what you dueled over, personal opinions without censorship.

There are many ways to make a point, debate and argue without insulting the character of the person you are debating. If you do decide to insult someone and believe it to be justified, then it has to have more substance behind it than "You won't agree with me, therefore you are a bad person".

I agree with your point about ad hominem, even praise can be an ad hominem, a switch of the debate from the topic to the person.

I don't disagree with SJ's position about SC and outcome studies. I have raised some of the same points and have seen many others do the same. However, I realized Barrett's position on it and decided to respect it. This isn't necessary, I have no problem with someone coming on here and badgering him mercilessly about it, although he might. I do have a problem when someone throws a tantrum and becomes insulting because they aren't getting there way.
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,25,0,28,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 25-10-2005 07:28<noscript>October 25, 2005 12:28 AM</noscript>:

Quite right Seb, Randy.. I left out the word 'attack' after the term 'ad hominem.' Error/omission noted.
<hr> Posted by SJBird55 (Member # 3236) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,25,6,7,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 25-10-2005 13:07<noscript>October 25, 2005 06:07 AM</noscript>:

You know, I don't see it as an attack at all. The bit about Barrett's personality and inability to take direction from others, in my opinion, is at the heart of his decision-making process. I didn't throw a tantrum... what I realized was that all this time, basically he's been lying. (Jump down my throat for saying that now.) I don't appreciate anyone lying to me - whether in person or in writing. If years ago, he would have just said, "SJ, I don't want to do what you're suggesting because I don't take direction from others very well." I probably would have had the "WHAT? That's ridiculous!" kind of response... but at least I wouldn't have been strung along all these years, debating, getting frustrated and being hopeful.

At the same time, I don't believe that personality trait is a respectable reason to drag one's feet and refuse to move forward. If no one else can see that and see what I saw, that's fine. It had to come down to a personal issue on my part and on his part because the whole issue is personal. Obviously our belief systems are different. No matter how logically I argued my point, there was never any agreement between the two of us... and there never would be because of that bit about himself. Barrett is basically like some of those older folks that you treat... no, they aren't going to wear better supportive shoes; by golly they ARE going to drink that shot of whiskey every day at 10 AM; and no, they aren't going to use a walker because they can hang onto the walls and furniture. Why are they that way? Well, they're stubborn. They aren't going to change - you can't argue facts, logic or be completely objective with them. Stubborn and cantankerous - and do you think I hold back and NOT tell them they are being stubborn and cantankerous and ridiculous? Heck no... I'm not insulting them - I'm stating what they are. They know it. I never said Barrett was a bad person. Just like the old folks that are being stubborn, they aren't bad folks - but they're setting themselves up for potential ramifications regarding their decision. I do believe there will be consequences on Barrett's decision.
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,25,6,27,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 25-10-2005 13:27<noscript>October 25, 2005 06:27 AM</noscript>:

Somehow I imagine this conversation taking place:

“Mr. Smith, I understand your need to be yourself even if it’s obvious that you’re a lying, lazy, stupid, selfish and self-destructive individual who often thinks their own opinion is worth something. It's not entirely your fault. Old folks like you get that way sometimes. Please don’t take it personally. Now, let’s proceed with therapy.”
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,25,7,40,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 25-10-2005 14:40<noscript>October 25, 2005 07:40 AM</noscript>:

"You know, I don't see it as an attack at all."
You would if this or something like it were directed toward you.

I think I can call it "attack" and that the word is a clear and accurate word to use in this case. The fact that you think Barret deserves attack, meanwhile denying that's what you are doing, makes it possible for you to discount your behavior and make it all his fault for deserving it somehow. Spouse beaters/child beaters use the same arguments. Exact same ones SJ. Get a grip.

By everyone elses' reckoning you are angry and frustrated or you wouldn't be spewing invective toward anyone.
Now where's that silence?
<hr> Posted by Yogi (Member # 3083) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,25,9,15,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 25-10-2005 16:15<noscript>October 25, 2005 09:15 AM</noscript>:

It's called compliance. Folks are called non-compliant alot, when they don't do what you want them to do. Experience teaches that compliance in general is a bell curve. I've actually had several pt's. that were correct in their non-compliance, for instance, several that were safer cruising walls and furniture, than using assistive devices, despite the educational dogma and general perception among nurses and PT's otherwise.
Barrett, I know Nari is big on CBT sort of stuff (well, Nari, maybe I just think so) maybe she can help you change that "nasty" (I thought it wise to put that in quotes) personality (personality probably ought to be in quotes, since I think it's pretty much immutable, but the general concensus is that it is not) trait.
You can now tell me to go take a flying leap, because you don't want it changed. Gee, that sounds pretty NORMAL to me. Unfortunately, in some settings, that's synonomous with NONCOMPLIANT and other unflattering terms.
There are some terms I don't use in documentation, simply because of the hidden meanings they have, for instance, symptom magnification being medicaleze for malingering, faking, secondary gain, and that term being a subjective opinion on my part, and others may take that opinion as an objective fact, to the detriment of the patient and their care.
<hr> Posted by Yogi (Member # 3083) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,25,9,19,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 25-10-2005 16:19<noscript>October 25, 2005 09:19 AM</noscript>:

I know another code word that might be useful, in situations where it is disseminated carefully and selectively.
<hr> Posted by Randy Dixon (Member # 3445) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,25,10,0,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 25-10-2005 17:00<noscript>October 25, 2005 10:00 AM</noscript>:

I'm glad SJ cleared that up. She wasn't being insulting, Barrett is just a nasty, selfish, liar, if he would have just told us that in the first place this whole nasty episode could have been avoided.
<hr> Posted by SJBird55 (Member # 3236) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,25,10,9,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 25-10-2005 17:09<noscript>October 25, 2005 10:09 AM</noscript>:

Wow, I never realized the aggressiveness to which I've been elevated. From vindictive, to insulting and from verbally abusive to now physically abusive. Hmmm, Diane, trying to egg me on? LOL Looks like we all can be childish, huh? I'm not angry or frustrated - I'm basically defending my view versus the few of you who now want to jump down my throat because of what I believe and how I interpreted what I've read. Do you really think I'll just sit back and accept ridiculous leaps and bounds of how some of you interpret stuff? I call a "spade" a "spade." It amazes me how no one else can see stubbornness or cantankerousness. Sorry I don't look the other way.

I don't think Barrett wants to change, Yogi. And, really, I don't care. I really do accept that he doesn't want to change. The whole issue in my mind really does revolve around all the previous conversations dealing with outcomes and me consistently arguing for the need and the benefit of them. In those arguments, I did use logic and kept the discussion objective. Now, when I find that the real reason probably deep down inside Barrett that basically stops him from even attempting to move forward has to do with taking direction from others. And yes... the reason is definitely stubbornness and yes, taking that reasoning and the priority it has for him one step further, yes, it is selfish. It would not have blown my mind so much if there would have been honesty years ago on his part. None of his arguments ever mentioned the true reason - THAT is basically at the heart of the matter for me. Pointing out what is true isn't attacking. Barrett, reread - I never said you were stupid; I never said you were lazy. If it isn't stubborn, cantankerous and selfish... what should have I said instead? Enlighten me, folks. If I need to grow up - well, teach me, enlighten me and give me some better suggestion to say what I want to say, but "softer."
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,25,10,58,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 25-10-2005 17:58<noscript>October 25, 2005 10:58 AM</noscript>:

Randy,

You forgot to add this: "...nasty, selfish liar who's not good at taking direction-which means he won't do an outcome study purely because it's been suggested, not because he doesn't understand its worth."

I'm not sure she gets that this sudden realization she keeps crowing about doesn't have anything at all to do with, well, anything. I've long indicated that I am an autodidact. Where's the lie? Autodidact simply means self-taught, it doesn't mean stubborn or purposely contradictory. Not at all. Of course it has nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion of outcome studies. I've always advocated them and I carry a few with me when I teach. I just see them for what they've proven to be.
<hr> Posted by OaksPT (Member # 2776) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,25,11,10,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 25-10-2005 18:10<noscript>October 25, 2005 11:10 AM</noscript>:

SJ,
Your formative years are gone, in reality none of us will really change at this stage in our life(as far as personality is concerned),the one thing that can benefit you is acceptance of what you can't change. Just like pain, your perceptions of how you perceive any of us to be (esp Barrett) are due to your own subjectivity, and you past life experiences. None of us can enlighten you on how to sat things "softer", if the subject matter itself isn't something we perceive the same as you.
Scott
<hr> Posted by Shill (Member # 2325) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,25,11,58,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 25-10-2005 18:58<noscript>October 25, 2005 11:58 AM</noscript>:

SJ,
Scott is right. I think you've come to realize that arguing on this forum isnt necessarily getting you anywhere, other than further frustrated. I have now met Barrett, and he is none of the things that you perceive, and in fact, quite the opposite. I had a very hard time trying to figure out the Simple Contact stuff, quite often, to the point of utter frustration myself. Some may recall my support for your arguments in the past, but I have now adjusted, and in fact learned that there is great benefit in the techniques he uses and supports.

You didnt ask for my advice, but Im going to give it anyway. Depersonalize things. It helped me to do this. Go to his course. It helped me to do this too. What could it hurt? Meet him. He is not a threat to anything other than conventional thoughts on our current treatments of pain.

You have nothing to lose but frustration.

Steve
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,25,12,18,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 25-10-2005 19:18<noscript>October 25, 2005 12:18 PM</noscript>:

Steve,

I appreciate this. Well, except for that suggestion about future course participation. Just being honest-for a change.

Any changes in your handling the past few days? Can you foresee an outcome study we might find useful?

Did you ever wear the hat?
<hr> Posted by SJBird55 (Member # 3236) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,25,12,49,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 25-10-2005 19:49<noscript>October 25, 2005 12:49 PM</noscript>:

Steve, I have met him. He wasn't polite at all to me and immediately dug into me for not using my actual name on this board. A whole polite introduction of myself turned in to me having to defend my rationale for not posting my actual name.... and there was a witness, my best friend, who was relieved when we walked away leaving Barrett with his computer. I'm sure that particular incident clouds my perceptions somewhat.

Scott, our personalities may not change, but our communication can. I have changed. Obviously not enough, but I know I have. And I think you enlightened me with your last sentence.... everyone's perceptions are different and it is through what we are perceiving that we are in disagreement. We do have to communicate though and there are many times in our lives where there is a clash in perspectives - there does have to be a softer way to handle the situation. The only way I know is direct and head on.

LOL Barrett. I have no idea what Steve was thinking either. I mean, does he want WWIII to break out? Actually, I don't think it would be that bad if I did take a course. You'd just choose not to ask if anyone had questions and you wouldn't ask for comments and everything would go nice and smooth. [IMG]wink.gif[/IMG]
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,25,15,19,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 25-10-2005 22:19<noscript>October 25, 2005 03:19 PM</noscript>:

If an aged (or younger)person refuses to use some clumsy walker or wear supportive shoes or not to drink whiskey at 10 am - that is THEIR choice. Some walkers are actually dangerous for oldies to use; they fall over them, anyway.
But as PTs, if we take away a person's right to decide what they want to do or how to live and replace it with what we personally decide is better for them - well, what happened to the wellknown USA code: land of the free? I know that is taking the matter further than is relevant,but when PTs start badgering people and plying their beliefs and trade like door-to-door salesmen....

SJ, you state.."the only way I know is direct and head-on". You sound pretty proud of that. 'That's me, I cannot change..that's how I am...etc etc'

Then why the ***** are you so insistent that Barrett and others MUST change the way they say or do things??

The only explanation that I can see is the very things you accuse Barrett of(or anyone else)are the reasons for the flack you have received from others on this forum: stubbornness,selfishness and so on, and that you enjoy delivering flack. Oh well...to each his/her own.

Enjoy.


Yogi -

CBT? On Barrett? or anyone else?..eeek. You kiddest, my friend. The only CBT I would use is the kind that lurks in the brain and sneaks out when I least expect it..it's most effective then.
Or so it seems; a kind of ideocognitive effect.
[IMG]wink.gif[/IMG]


Nari
<hr> Posted by SJBird55 (Member # 3236) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,25,16,33,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 25-10-2005 23:33<noscript>October 25, 2005 04:33 PM</noscript>:

Geesh... the elderly was just an example. I wasn't saying that it wasn't their choice - just an example of what I'd view as stubbornness. How about this... I have a frickin jackass that is stubborn for no apparent reason, he decides he's not going to move and he doesn't. It is in his best interest to walk and do what I want him to do because it leads to food... but sometimes he chooses to be stubborn and cantankerous. And if any of you don't think that I don't come in the house yipping at my husband about how ridiculously stubborn that jackass can be and that I don't vent some irritation over that jackass's stubbornness - well, I do. When I speak of my jackass and describe one of his characteristics, that probably isn't negative, but it was true - he can be stubborn and cantankerous. Don't read into it any deeper than the face value. I don't toss out analogies - I try to express examples. There are never any hidden, deep meanings.

And, I never said I was proud of my characteristic of being direct and head-on. Again, more reading into what I wrote - I meant that all I know is direct and head-on. (Which is exactly what I wrote.) I asked for assistance in how better to handle my views that would be "softer." I never said I couldn't change... I believe I can change, but I'd need assistance of others - especially from those of you who are probably more introverted and less confrontational. (Which was why I asked for opinions/assistance because obviously my communication style is supposedly offensive to many of you.) So, see, it all comes down to perceptions again - not just me perceiving, but each of you and your perceptions. Scott hit it on the head when he mentioned perceptions.

And, I've never said Barrett had to change, nor anyone else for that matter. I don't care if Barrett doesn't change... I no longer care if he doesn't do any research or outcome studies... but I didn't appreciate being lied to all these years.
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,25,16,39,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 25-10-2005 23:39<noscript>October 25, 2005 04:39 PM</noscript>:

I guess I must say it: I have not lied to anybody here. Your continued accusation of such a thing is absurd and increasingly pathetic.

If you're feeling alone with this opinion it's because you are.
<hr> Posted by Shill (Member # 2325) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,25,17,54,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-10-2005 00:54<noscript>October 25, 2005 05:54 PM</noscript>:

Barrett,
I have used Simple Contact over the last week. Its pretty funny how easy it is, and the results are nice. I found it rather helpful for a 45 y.o. woman 4 weeks out from a 35 MPH MVA, in reducing her pain from a 5/10 to a 3/10 from one visit to the next. The literature does not provide much help for neck pain related to high intensity MVA treatment within the first 6 weeks, and I am seeing pain relief at 4-5 weeks with Simple Contact. Interesting in a way, but with all of the increased sympathetic tone in these situations, easy to see why it might work. The woman is as surprised as I am with the results, and she even used the term hypnotized. Apparently my hands are a bit more powerful than I thought. Of course I told her that if I could hypnotize, I would hypnotize my kids into routinely cleaning their rooms....
In regards to outcome studies, I think it would be rather easy to do, we use a tool known as TAOS, which is a functional survey filled out before and after a bout of therapy. Each patient who actually follows through with a plan of care fills it out at completion of care. I will keep track of those patients with whom I use Simple Contact, and see how the outcomes look. What I cant do, as the tool isnt refined enough, is compare it to other techniques. So, its a start.

I did wear the hat, and will continue to do so. It is on my desk, as a reminder to not be so black and white in my treatment approaches.

Saw a 16 y.o. with a 4 week h/o RSD/CRPS today, and have started Simple Contact, among other things today. Cant wait to see how this turns out. Her leg was freezing cold. Do I hear case study? We shall see. One of my goals this year is to get one published.

Thanks again,
Steve
<hr> Posted by Bournephysio (Member # 1814) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,25,18,20,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-10-2005 01:20<noscript>October 25, 2005 06:20 PM</noscript>:

Steve, lets pretend by some miracle that SJ goes to a Barrett course, they get along famously and SJ becomes a complete convert. Do you think that would change her questions about the outcomes of SC? It shouldn’t. They would still be very valid questions. She may take it on herself to do the study but the need would still be there. Whether she is a witch or an angel has nothing to do with the validity of the questions she has asked (ignoring the obvious difficulties they have with each other).

Sebastian, your post is very well spoken but I would like to add one very important point. I do not see these two trends clashing anywhere but on this site. People here always want to pigeonhole people into one of two groups. I never know what group I belong or what sport I should be playing. I see no clashing in the academic world. No one thinks that theories shouldn’t be tested (which is what people are saying if they are suggesting rcts are not needed). How they are tested is based on the question asked not on which sport they play. Efficacy questions are answered most effectively by rct. Rcts are not perfect but they are the best way to reduce the bias that so easily influences clinical studies.

Doug
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,25,18,23,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-10-2005 01:23<noscript>October 25, 2005 06:23 PM</noscript>:

Steve,

Now we're getting somewhere. Please remember that with a little patience working distantly from the painful part might end up being a good idea.

Let us know how it goes.

Doug,

You're right. For the record, I for one have never said that theories needn't be tested.
<hr> Posted by Luke R (Member # 3561) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,25,19,25,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-10-2005 02:25<noscript>October 25, 2005 07:25 PM</noscript>:

SJ,

I am more introverted and less confrontational. I like to remember that if I don't expect people to be other than who they are, then I am never disappointed. This seems to help avoid much arguing.

Luke
<hr> Posted by Sarah C. (Member # 4115) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,25,21,17,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-10-2005 04:17<noscript>October 25, 2005 09:17 PM</noscript>:

I have just caught up on this thread and I have a couple thoughts. First, people take offense at statements about their motives or intentions, because no one can really know what another's motives are. I've experienced this a lot lately, as SJ knows. She has been coaching me through a rather difficult time at work (hard to believe? Actually, she is very good at thin-slicing a situation for someone else). Having said that, I think SJ made a huge leap into the realm of speculation and perceptual bias by linking the statement of Barrett's (about not taking direction welll) to his lack of outcome studies. Sometimes we want to understand something so much, that we fill in the blanks. Yes, Barrett is hard to understand, he is a person with complex beliefs, values and experiences...and that is precisely why one can't make blanket statements about his character, motives or intentions. Or anyone's else's for that matter. All we can do is seek to understand each other further and try to keep our own feelings/perceptions or subjective experiences on the back burner.
Diane mentioned a transference of sorts between SJ and Barrett. Maybe projection would be a better term (I'm not a psychologist). I will admit that Barrett reminds me quite a lot of my father, whom I have had many fierce conversations with. I learned to accept my dad for who he was after a friend gave me a great piece of advice. He said, people have expectations of other's behaviors and disappointment/frustration occur when those expectations aren't met. If we never tell the other person what our expectations are, how can we expect them to meet them? Furthermore (my additional thought here), if we choose to overlook our expectations in the first place, we can just appreciate the person for who they truly are and not perceive them through a clouded lens. So, being the more introverted and less controversial type myself, I thought I'd add that 2 cents.
Sarah
<hr> Posted by SJBird55 (Member # 3236) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,26,5,48,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-10-2005 12:48<noscript>October 26, 2005 05:48 AM</noscript>:

Hmmm, Between Steve's perception comment and Sarah's expectations comment - there's the answer to the whole problem.

I know I'm not projecting anything... it's all in the expectation aspect.

So, after reading Sarah's post, there is something there. First of all, Barrett is the one with a theory and he is the one educating others on this theory and he is the one using and getting others to use this theory on patients. That is commendable and that is great. But... yep, there is a but... I have the expectation that he has an extra responsibility (since it's his baby) to have to do something with regard to outcomes, a case study, or some RCT. The whole issue isn't that I want him to change - the whole issue is that he needs to take the responsibility and do more - and in a way, I don't believe my belief is just mine, but it is within the profession as well. So, technically, he isn't meeting my expectations of a person with a theory/approach. And the reason that I'm made to be the scapegoat is because I'm the only one that consistently screams... do a study. If everyone who went to a CEU had a firm belief that efficacy had to be established, he'd have no one at his CEU. Frankly, if I went to his CEU, I wouldn't pay... how can I determine a value to something that I might learn when nothing has been established or published? All I have is his word... which isn't good enough for me.

I've been making more than one huge leap (I'm not even going to list them off)... I've made conceptual leaps all along because Barrett keeps on changing his story as to why he doesn't do some kind of study - and with every conceptual leap, I'm the bad guy and I'm the insulting one. I still don't know why he doesn't do a study. Tons of excuses that change with every argument. There is never any consistency in his excuses. He's acknowledged the importance... so now I know he knows the importance and the need. So, if taking direction from others isn't the deep seated reason, I really don't know what is. At this day in age, it isn't acceptable that he isn't being held more responsible and accountable.

Just like years ago, they thought bleeding a person was beneficial... how wrong they were. Just like ultrasound - has a great theory, but not that great of an efficacy. Simple contact seems to have a theory of sorts, but does it really work? You can't base your decision from memory or from self-reflection. You have to have statistics determine the results.

Thanks everyone for your input. And, yes, Doug... I'd still have the questions.
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,26,5,53,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-10-2005 12:53<noscript>October 26, 2005 05:53 AM</noscript>:

My reasons for not doing an outcome study have never changed. Never.
<hr> Posted by Luke R (Member # 3561) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,26,6,4,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-10-2005 13:04<noscript>October 26, 2005 06:04 AM</noscript>:

Incredible [IMG]confused.gif[/IMG]
<hr> Posted by Yogi (Member # 3083) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,26,8,46,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-10-2005 15:46<noscript>October 26, 2005 08:46 AM</noscript>:

Wow, some of you folks have really articulated some good life lessons here. Better than Chicken Soup stuff I think.
Doug, when I first started reading Rehabedge I was really impressed by your knowledge, expertise, and thinking. You did it again.
Nari, thanks. Lurks and sneaks, in the brain, I'd love to hear about some of those, perhaps a new thread.
Sarah, Scott, good stuff.
Barrett, SJ, I'm glad the post wasn't deleted. Other than that I don't know what to say.
I've mentioned it before, one more time. Assertive is ok, aggressive is not, many people get the two confused.
<hr> Posted by Shill (Member # 2325) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,26,9,3,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-10-2005 16:03<noscript>October 26, 2005 09:03 AM</noscript>:

Doug,
I only suggested what I did to help ease the frustration aspect, and perhaps stop the personalization of the arguments. It gets us no where. I am a huge proponent of outcome studies, and questioning approaches, but we need to do this in a constructive fashion.

Steve
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,26,9,18,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-10-2005 16:18<noscript>October 26, 2005 09:18 AM</noscript>:

Ditto that Steve.
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,26,14,37,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 26-10-2005 21:37<noscript>October 26, 2005 02:37 PM</noscript>:

Ditto that, Luke! [IMG]confused.gif[/IMG]


Nari
<hr> Posted by Jon Newman (Member # 3148) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,26,18,52,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 27-10-2005 01:52<noscript>October 26, 2005 06:52 PM</noscript>:

SJ, your last points would be especially on target if Barrett made any claims of efficacy of outcomes like John Iams or the like, but he doesn't. He does discuss strength, posture, flexibility and whether we have good rationale to stress those things in therapy for the purpose of pain relief. He does use known human physiology to pose the question, does this make sense? Thus the CEU, I imagine, is for the time you took to be exposed to critical questioning of what we currently do for pain and what we know from biology, sociology, psychology. Also, for the time to consider what an approach that took these things into account might look like--not that it's necessarily any better, but that it makes sense.
Personally, it left me inspired to look at things even more critically (than I had been), including Simple Contact itself and I've learned much more that way than could have ever been covered in the course. I'll consider myself lucky that he did not simply inspire my anger as he seems to be able to do with excessive ease in certain people.

jon
<hr> Posted by steve j (Member # 4145) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,26,22,34,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 27-10-2005 05:34<noscript>October 26, 2005 10:34 PM</noscript>:

Jon,
Somewhat off topic (or at least a sideline): I looked up John Iams (as I had no idea who he is) and found this rather soft-focus interview on the 'net:
http://www.powerathletesmag.com/pages/johniams.htm

Sort of reads as if Iams himself wrote the questions, and the responses: "so this makes it very, very unique"; "...you are truly a pioneer in the human potential movement and in physical therapy" gushes the interviewer.
Do you know anyone who has taken a course from this guy?

Steve.
<hr> Posted by Jon Newman (Member # 3148) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,26,22,59,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 27-10-2005 05:59<noscript>October 26, 2005 10:59 PM</noscript>:

Steve,

I don't know anyone who has taken this fellow's course, sorry. There is a thread somewhere here on rehabedge about his system though.

jon
<hr> Posted by Randy Dixon (Member # 3445) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,27,5,52,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 27-10-2005 12:52<noscript>October 27, 2005 05:52 AM</noscript>:

SJ,

You do seem to be trying. If you want to know what others find objectionable about your posts I can only suggest that you try a little more introspection, perhaps beginning by entertaining the notion that you might be at fault or mistaken even when you feel that you aren't.

I found nothing in you last post insulting. Saying that you believe a CEU provider should provide evidence for their course and the burden of proof of efficacy is on them is someting that is widely held and I agree with, even if I didn't there is nothing insulting about it. I think Jules Rothstein felt similarly.

http://www.ptjournal.org/September01...mberEdNote.cfm

Barrett's made his answer, numerous times, you either accept it or not. If you don't, that is still not an insult. Yet almost everyone agrees that you have been insulting. If it does not come from the line of your questioning, which is what you seem to think it arises from, then where does it come from? The manner of your question, direct and straightforward is how you would describe it, might grate on some but I would not classify it as insulting. So maybe if you reread your posts and realize it is not what you ask or how you ask it that the objection comes from then maybe you can see what does cause it. I'll give you a hint, it's the insults.
<hr> Posted by Randy Dixon (Member # 3445) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,27,6,6,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 27-10-2005 13:06<noscript>October 27, 2005 06:06 AM</noscript>:

My wife has taken John Iam's courses. She has been very impressed with their effectiveness, and they have become a mainstay of her practice. Unfortunately, the evidence is of the "because it works" variety. I, and I would underline I if I knew how on this forum, am disappointed in his lack of explanation of how it works, the lack of studies (although I know of some being conducted, that's a pretty common refrain) and some of his marketing hyperbole.

It's a shame, I believe that he has something valuable to share, I would recomend the course, but I can't recommend it without reserve because of these shortcomings.

On the other hand, I have seen many patients my wife is seeing get that "Wow!" look in their eyes and they leave without pain thinking she is a miracle worker. That might be a backhanded plug in itself, but I also think that type of result might be in the nature of neurodynamic work.
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,27,7,20,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 27-10-2005 14:20<noscript>October 27, 2005 07:20 AM</noscript>:

Sounds like he developed himself a good model, or constructed one out of existing bits and pieces (the actual neuromodulation that is, where he puts his hands, how long, what sequence). Sounds like the hypothesis (reflexes, flexion, withdrawal, etc.) is based on old pre- brain research suppositions/concepts. In fact it sounds like Hannah's somatic reflexes. Maybe he borrowed those to support his model.
<hr> Posted by FunctionbyDesign (Member # 6097) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,30,22,19,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 31-10-2005 05:19<noscript>October 30, 2005 10:19 PM</noscript>:

If at all possible, is there a way to have a seperate thread called:
SJBird55 vs. Barrett
so we can stick to the topics at hand. Whoever is the moderator should forward any comment(made by SJBird55 towards Barrett or vice versa) that doesn't relate to the topic to the previously mentioned thread. I don't see how any of this is helping us create healing environments for our clients/patients. Filtering through the "crap" is taking my time away from doing a study on SC [IMG]smile.gif[/IMG] .

just my thoughts
David
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,31,5,4,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 31-10-2005 12:04<noscript>October 31, 2005 05:04 AM</noscript>:

I see you're brand new to the board. Because of this you may not know how such things work. Threads meander quite commonly in response to random and seemingly unrelated comments. What seems irrelevant one day can become the foundation of a remarkably useful discussion the next. Those of us familiar to this process recognize the power of this free-form exchange-maybe you'll figure this out.

By the way. I am the moderator here.
<hr> Posted by David Adamczyk (Member # 3) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,31,19,12,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 01-11-2005 02:12<noscript>October 31, 2005 07:12 PM</noscript>:

David,

Welcome to RehabEdge. You are probably echoing the thoughts of many.

Our goal is to serve the industry and provide you with an environment to grow as a professional.

For those who utilize the RehabEdge Forum, please consider your impact/contribution to the profession each time you post.

Dave
<hr> Posted by FunctionbyDesign (Member # 6097) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,9,31,20,4,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 01-11-2005 03:04<noscript>October 31, 2005 08:04 PM</noscript>:

Barrett,
I'm part of other forums and have the hang of how things work. I would post the same thing elsewhere. JUST MY THOUGHTS....nothing more. Just noticing a trend in the threads that I've read thus far.

I appreciate your input.

thank you
David
<hr> Posted by Randy Dixon (Member # 3445) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,1,0,0,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 01-11-2005 07:00<noscript>November 01, 2005 12:00 AM</noscript>:

I would say "getting back to the topic at hand" is exactly what we were doing. What is the topic at this point? In my view it is what kind of questions need to be asked, what kind of discussions do we need to have and in what manner will we have them.
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,1,18,8,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 02-11-2005 01:08<noscript>November 01, 2005 06:08 PM</noscript>:

I agree with Randy - I have thought about this issue raised by David for a little while.

Although the dialogue in question probably put off people from posting, it still centred around the topic of Simple Contact and its continued existence. To quote a worn cliche: "Evidence of absence is not absence of evidence", with respect to studies not done.

Ideas, opinions, guesstimates based on knowledge of a system and hypotheses are there to be agreed with or shot down in flames, and are the stuff of investigative thinking.

Tempering personal verbal opinion to a sane discussion is a good idea, but we are human with all the associated memes and beliefs, along with fierceness of beliefs.

Barrett is all for fierce discussions, but I don't think he is in favour of throwing hot mud pies at someone who is seen at odds with another.

We can agree to disagree quite happily; I do it frequently, or at least I think it's in a benign way. Better to utter a disagreement than just give in and be dishonest with oneself. But there are socially appropriate ways to disagree, and this is one of the things that Randy and webmaster David are implying, I think.

Back to the future: is a forum on Simple Contact and its usage a good idea? It has been mentioned before; and it seems a logical step forward towards its preservation.

Nari
<hr> Posted by Randy Dixon (Member # 3445) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,2,16,30,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 02-11-2005 23:30<noscript>November 02, 2005 04:30 PM</noscript>:

I think for all intents and purposes this forum represents Simple Contact.
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,2,20,24,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 03-11-2005 03:24<noscript>November 02, 2005 08:24 PM</noscript>:

Randy (and others),

While a forum devoted entirely to me and my ideas sounds nice, it’s obvious to me that this section of Rehab Edge serves no such a purpose. Nor does it specifically address Simple Contact very commonly. That is just a name I use for my manual and verbal method. I have described elsewhere where I came up with the name and, over the years, the method itself has evolved somewhat, though not a great deal. I call it Simple Contact because, well, I had to call it something. What has grown is my understanding of what touch combined with an increasing maturity in our understanding of what we’re dealing with can do or lead to.

Look back through the archived threads in the Bullypit and you’ll see that the vast majority concern the deep model of anatomy, physiology and chemistry that, if accurate, would lead any thoughtful therapist to abandon the traditional methods of management for painful problems and, instead, embrace a method that looks remarkably similar to Simple Contact. At least, that’s the story I’m sticking with currently. My workshops follow the same reasoning, and anyone who has attended will tell you that actual practice was brief, and, in the end, not all that necessary.

I think that understanding the body as it actually exists would convince most therapists to, at the very least, delay the use of passive joint motion in hopes that it will profoundly or enduringly lead to pain relief, and it would virtually eliminate the use of forceful manual care. I find that when people do such things they make very little effort to explain biologically or physiologically why they do such things, but they aren’t hesitant to say, “It works, so there (often followed by “the raspberries,” something familiar to any kid on the playground).

The Bullypit is, I hope, a place where we don’t sit still for any argument as shallow as that. I’ve always thought we could do better, and I feel that over the past six years those who contribute here have proven that to be true.
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,3,17,55,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 04-11-2005 00:55<noscript>November 03, 2005 05:55 PM</noscript>:

Barrett

You write:"...My workshops follow the same reasoning, and anyone who has attended will tell you that actual practice was brief, and in the end, not all that necessary".

I would like to add that experiencing ideomotion, even if only for 5 minutes, is worth the attendance alone. Anyone can read and understand/interpret the physiological reasoning behind the concept, but first hand experience is essential for the lightbulb to switch on. It is an amazing sensation. I am now much better at eliciting the movement on myself, and am waiting for some symptom to appear to test it out on, but as that hasn't happened since the course...oh well. I have no plans to inflict an insult on myself as Dr Barry Marshall did to demonstrate the bacterial origin of ulcers....


Nari
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,3,19,8,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 04-11-2005 02:08<noscript>November 03, 2005 07:08 PM</noscript>:

Ditto Nari. There is no substitute for direct experiencing; as far as SC goes, both getting it and learning to practice it.
<hr> Posted by Shill (Member # 2325) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,4,11,28,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 04-11-2005 18:28<noscript>November 04, 2005 11:28 AM</noscript>:

Alright you two...(Diane and Nari). How do you do it? Experiencing the ideomotor movement that is. I can get it in patients, but not myself. The closest I can get is nearly falling out of my chair, but I think thats just because I am trying to relax. What gives?

Steve
<hr> Posted by Christophb (Member # 3884) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,4,13,20,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 04-11-2005 20:20<noscript>November 04, 2005 01:20 PM</noscript>:

I have a question... On rare occasions people have experienced increased pain/discomfort following simple contact (usually with working on the neck). This lasts only for a few days but is quite unusual in my experience with SC and I'm curious if others have had this experience. If so, why?

As for eliciting my own ideomotor movement, I find certain body parts that are reluctant to get started. It really helps if I just gently touch those parts and then I usually get movement with the warmth, effortlessness etc. I am amazed at how much a subtle difference there is between non-conscious and willful movement.

Chris
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,4,15,4,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 04-11-2005 22:04<noscript>November 04, 2005 03:04 PM</noscript>:

As Chris stated, it IS amazing that the margin between conscious movement and willful movement is so narrow.

Shill, it seems to work best for me, myself, with touch at the occiput or forehead or the neck itself.
It doesn't work as well (as quickly) with hip/trochanteric touch. I am sure we have different ways, but at the instant I touch (featherlight touch++) I ask myself strongly: "Where do I want to go?" The SNS changes are relatively mild, and not always there, but once the motion starts, it feels as though the body has, very quietly, come alive. very hard to describe, and quite different from the 'asleep' and 'unaware' feeling of just peacefully lying down, relaxed.
Barrett describes three states: asleep and awake are not all that different from each other - aware is the opposite. I can understand that now.

If you feel the sensation of falling off the chair, then you are consciously moving, even if only a little bit. Balance is perfectly coordinated and 'falling over or off' does not happen with ideomotor movement.

Good luck

nari
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,4,15,10,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 04-11-2005 22:10<noscript>November 04, 2005 03:10 PM</noscript>:

Steve, it feels strong, not a "falling" feeling, more a streaming feeling. It feels ameboid, that's the best description I can do.
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,4,15,18,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 04-11-2005 22:18<noscript>November 04, 2005 03:18 PM</noscript>:

...and rather like a dynamic floppy watch out of a Salvador Dali painting...

Nari
<hr> Posted by Jon Newman (Member # 3148) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,4,15,30,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 04-11-2005 22:30<noscript>November 04, 2005 03:30 PM</noscript>:

Hi Chris,

I haven't had the experience of post therapy increased soreness relayed to me by patients, yet. Perhaps others have had that experience.

Hi Shill,

It sounds like you might be waiting to be moved, as if siezed by some force but of course only you can produce the movement. It seems to me that there is a spectrum to what that movement feels like to people with 'being moved' at one end and spontaneous/effortlessness but aware (that the movement is self generated) at the other.

The touch of another seems to increase the "being moved" illusion but with little training one can produce those same characteristics of effortlessness and spontaneity, independently. I always remain aware that I am moving and never feel moved. The hard part for me was to 'just move'(in the presence of another).

jon
<hr> Posted by Christophb (Member # 3884) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,4,16,45,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 04-11-2005 23:45<noscript>November 04, 2005 04:45 PM</noscript>:

I'm wondering if during the course of performing ideomotor movement, they cross over to willful movement to "help out". Or is it a central pain process that emerges/ gets misinterpreted? It's only with a vey few people so it couldn't be me... right [IMG]wink.gif[/IMG]

Chris
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,4,20,54,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 05-11-2005 03:54<noscript>November 04, 2005 08:54 PM</noscript>:

Steve, another way it feels is completely boneless. Another way is, it feels like each segment of the body has a totally different (from each other) relationship to gravity.
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,4,21,14,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 05-11-2005 04:14<noscript>November 04, 2005 09:14 PM</noscript>:

Chris, did those few people experience a continuation of their presenting pain during the early/mid phase of the movements? If so, they may not have been able to "ignore" that pain experience, and some conscious act may have crept in along the line.
If they experienced pain of a different nature after you had seen them, it may still have been a sort of flare-type pain, due to the conscious act.
otherwise, I don't have any other answers.


Steve, in the class the first thought that leapt to mind when Barrett touched me and asked the question, was that I felt no need to go anywhere; I had put up a resistance, illusionary or otherwise. I spent some time with different partners and, as jon had found, without much success. Then with a different partner, it was almost instantaneous. This got me wondering about the effect of having a partner in class with whom I felt quite comfortable - I didn't with some of the others, from the start. No idea why....but I felt fairly sure, at least for me, "getting the hang" of letting myself wander off without becoming lost was dependent on the other person's 'vibes'.
I'd like some other opinions on this, as well. How much of this depends on one's personality?

It might be an important factor when it comes to patients...


nari
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,5,0,1,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 05-11-2005 07:01<noscript>November 05, 2005 12:01 AM</noscript>:

Nari,

I remember this, I think. In the clinic with more time and an opportunity to move to alternate positions I would have had some success, as somebody else did later. Actually, I don't see it as the therapist's success when the moment emerges-it's the patient's.

I liken the hesitance to move that you experienced to the same that anyone might feel when given the opportunity to speak but not yet being convinced it is safe to do so. Of course, it's the therapist's job to create a "presence" that makes authentic expression safe. I'm not sure this is necessarily related to personality. I mean, I don't feel I have what you'd call a typical therapeutic personality, but my presence has proven on more than a few occasions to be therapeutic-or so I've been told.
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,5,2,1,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 05-11-2005 09:01<noscript>November 05, 2005 02:01 AM</noscript>:

Barrett

It is definitely the patient's success; and that applies to all of physiotherapy up to a degree.
We are not in this profession to build our egos, are we?
I was not casting any aspersions on you, of course, because, in hindsight, it was my inability to move out of the forest in a class situation quite early in the piece. Groups of PTs inhibit me like crazy but I do get over it mostly.
[IMG]smile.gif[/IMG]

Anyway, what is a typical therapeutic personality?
Everyone is quite different in their approach, and no-one will 'suit' all. I found your approach quite benign, enthusiastic and far from boring. That probably sits quite well with a definition of a 'therapeutic personality'....in my mind.

Nari
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,5,7,12,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 05-11-2005 14:12<noscript>November 05, 2005 07:12 AM</noscript>:

Nari,

I can't seem to get it out of my head that many popular therapists I've met over the years have been the cheerleader sort, overtly maternal in nature or (if men) glad-handy and jocular. Being none of this myself, I sometimes wonder why they let me into the PT program back when it was really hard to get into.

I don't end up friends with my patients on any significant level. This is also true of my students with a very few exceptions. However, I think the "strangeness" of another-and by that I mean our lack of familiarity with them-enhances our attention to their touch, and thus our attention to ourselves when they touch us. As you know, this self-awareness is what liberates us from "the strings of society" (Stanley Milgrim) and one primary benefit of the cutting of those strings is ideomotion fully expressed.

To my students and patients I remain largely enigmatic and unknown on a personal level, giving away virtually nothing of my personal life-Nanaimo being the exception to some extent-and I think this is unusual having watched many other teachers divulge so much personal stuff in the past. This, to me, is the ego-building you might be referring to.
<hr> Posted by Gil Haight (Member # 691) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,5,7,48,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 05-11-2005 14:48<noscript>November 05, 2005 07:48 AM</noscript>:

Nari,
I think your questions are entirely relevant to many of the mysteries surrounding SC. As I have stated on this forum previously, I have practised the method for more than 20 years. Without question the most important acknowlegement or realization was the simple idea that it doesn't make any difference if the pt. "gets it" or even gets better. Either way, it is not because of you. Judgement of oneself as such is a huge problem. I'm talking about giving up the notion of helping or fixing others and replacing it with serving. This is profoundly complicated by economics and social position. At the end of the day if one can leave the clinic and say, " there is nothing else I would have done", I think things will work out well.
Gil
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,5,10,28,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 05-11-2005 17:28<noscript>November 05, 2005 10:28 AM</noscript>:

Gil,

Exactly.

I wrote an essay a few years ago titled "PT In Service" (it's on my site) and tried to pedal it to "PT Magazine" but since it began with a quote from Hermann Hesse the editor told me, "Nobody will know what you're talking about." Ever wonder why that publication is so consistently awful?

Anyway, it says in part: "I want to emphasize that a therapist should never act as a servant to any patient, but as one who through maturity and experience can see the strength and wholeness within others. This attitude raises both parties to an equal footing and decreases the distance between them that the judgement necessary for helping and fixing normally creates. It might be said that service is not a job, it's a calling. When we serve, we are elevated in an invisible but very real sense, and so are those around us."

I admire this attitude and I think I project it. I find it commonly keeps patients from trying to tell me how to practice. This is something many therapists struggle with. At least, that's the stories I hear.
<hr> Posted by Christophb (Member # 3884) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,5,11,24,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 05-11-2005 18:24<noscript>November 05, 2005 11:24 AM</noscript>:

I had this argument/"conversation" with my manager. I was enthusiastic about marketing (well, about as enthusiastic I can get about marketing) simple contact to physicians. I was cautioned to avoid talking exclusively about SC and I should make it known that our clinic emphasizes/specializes in orthopedic physical therapy/manual therapy as well. Now, I'm all for a balanced attack, but I didn't sense advise, but rather fear and much skepticism.

She went into a description of how she had managed over a 2 month period to bring a stubborn fellow out of a forward head posture, align him more symmetrically, blah, blah, blah. Of course then I had to ask why she needed to do that and how did that approach affect pain and the nervous system, (going into the defense/defect argument).

When she described her treatment approach, it sounded like a battle between his body and her hands, and darn it, her hands were going to win.

Since I've been working SC (2mo vs. 20-30 yrs... still need practice [IMG]wink.gif[/IMG] ), I've seen the benefit of being of service vs. helping/fixing. And I think people really appreciate this. Most are confused because they have had PT before and what I'm doing in no way resembles their past experience. Some are disappointed because they want fixing (makes me wonder if they have ever experienced care from a healthcare professional). Most find it enjoyable and non-threatening, which is nice since most have been "threatened" with information of a particular deformity resulting in disability and future surgery.

Do I get better results than my co-workers? I don't know, they seem to hold their own as do I. But I don't seem to battle nearly as hard sweating and pushing and fixing. I somehow couldn’t get my fellow PT to see that, how could I, simple contact is too easy.

That's my rant for the day

Chris
<hr> Posted by Barrett (Member # 67) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,5,12,31,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 05-11-2005 19:31<noscript>November 05, 2005 12:31 PM</noscript>:

Chris,

If it's any help, I think you're doing the best anyone can do, and I appreciate your words and effort.

You think talking to therapists is difficult? Wait until you spend a few minutes with a doctor. Do yourself a favor and stay away from any sharp objects for at least a couple of hours afterward. Removing your belt and shoelaces might be a good idea as well.

Does that sound a little cynical?

For your boss: Point out that these patients have a neurologic problem, not an orthopedic one. This is true, and you can make the case that no less than Shirley Sahrmann has turned in this direction.

Next thing you know you're working with post-stroke patients in the ICU while the outpatient ortho staff is having a party for some reason. You weren't invited.

I hope you find this as encouraging as I always have.

Welcome to the world of service.
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,5,13,29,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 05-11-2005 20:29<noscript>November 05, 2005 01:29 PM</noscript>:

...I could add to that last sentence:
..."and welcome to the Cartesian World"..

Chris, there are many PTs who see clinical practice as a battleground, between their practice rationale, the patient's expectations and professional identity.

I agree with Barrett that the cheerleader identity is quite strong, which is where (in Oz anyway) the image of "jolly physios working away on patients" arises. We are seen, broadly, as sport-loving, fit, eternally happy souls always ready to emit blood, sweat and tears over patients; and this is, to me, a very erroneous image to send to the public/medicos. It may not be wrong, but it is inappropriate. I must admit things have improved over 20 years, and we have become more questioning - but the image stays, as images do.

Keep going - the opposition will not go away, but the worst risk is that you will be considered "that funny PT who doesn't really do PT" - I am not sure of the sequela of that notion's existence in the USA, but it would be tolerated here. At my worst moments, I consider I am not here to 'please' colleagues or bosses - I am here to offer optimal service, in whatever form, to patients who wish to feel better.

Nari
<hr> Posted by Diane (Member # 1064) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,5,13,41,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 05-11-2005 20:41<noscript>November 05, 2005 01:41 PM</noscript>:

I would add, if your service succeeds, that is to say if enough people "get it", feel empowered to live in a body more successfully, and get better rather than stay the same or get worse, it won't matter your original designation or how many fools you must suffer (ok, maybe not gladly) to move along your own path. There are fools in every walk of life and around every corner you turn; there's simply no escape.
<hr> Posted by Christophb (Member # 3884) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,5,14,19,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 05-11-2005 21:19<noscript>November 05, 2005 02:19 PM</noscript>:

Well, although I rant, I feel much more comfortable as a PT now than a year ago. I enjoy the occasional mental sparring and I look at it as a way to challenge professional growth. If I’m going to say "crazy" things, I better have something to back it up with (and thanks to all you “bully pitters“ I do) I think its probably best just to keep letting the patients have their success and let that speak for itself. But, if questioned I'll be ready to put on the gloves for a friendly match.

Chris
<hr> Posted by Shill (Member # 2325) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,5,18,11,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 06-11-2005 01:11<noscript>November 05, 2005 06:11 PM</noscript>:

Jon,Diane, Nari,
Thanks for the suggestions. The feeling of bonelessness I have felt, and I have felt the need to inhibit the inhibition. Stop stopping the motion that is. Many times Ive asked myself which way do I want to move, and most often, there isnt any motion. Does that mean I have a problem? Wait a minute. Dont answer that. I'll keep trying....
<hr> Posted by nari (Member # 2772) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,5,19,16,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 06-11-2005 02:16<noscript>November 05, 2005 07:16 PM</noscript>:

Shill...one suggestion. Close your eyes, touch and allow your mind to be a void. Blackness of closed eyes. Then ask the question.


Nari
<hr> Posted by Jon Newman (Member # 3148) on <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,10,5,19,42,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script> 06-11-2005 02:42<noscript>November 05, 2005 07:42 PM</noscript>:

Just my personal opinion here but I don't model movement for a patient unless I want them to do something in a specific manner. Resisting my urge to set things right, according to me, has been one of my great struggles as a maturing therapist but my understanding of neurobiology has led me to believe that distancing myself from this urge is worth the effort if enduring change is what's hoped for.

Steve, you sound like you've got it now.

jon

I just realized that this ground has been covered by Gil in an earlier post and expanded upon in Barrett's essay.