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Ideomotor Jerk!

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Alice Sanvito View Post
    First, why are you doing this? Is there a problem you are trying to solve?
    Chronic neck and shoulder pain.

    Why did she decide to put her hands where she does?
    No reason, just where I asked her to put them. She doesn't know anything about therapy she just has nice warm hands and heart and isn't trying to move me in any dogma related way. You can't hear it in the video but I asked her to move her hands and change some things which she did.


    I would do it laying down for 2 reasons - less fear of gravity causing injury and greater ability to relax.
    I agree. You will note that I mention this above. But thanks for the input.
    Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
    Shavasana Yoga Center

    "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman

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    • #17
      Thanks Diane,

      I'll take your input.
      Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
      Shavasana Yoga Center

      "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by byronselorme View Post
        Proud, I don't know if you meant that to be funny but it sure was .

        I am nowhere near falling asleep here but I am relaxed.

        And yes I meditate.
        More of a commentary on my inability to grasp the idea of ideomotion from a clinical perspective.

        The comment on meditation was more my thought process that it seems to me that in this video you are indeed....relaxed. And relaxed in a manner that is completely foreign to me. The only time I can be completely relaxed is when I am in my bed....sleeping.

        I've never meditated. Can't seem to let my skeptic brain "go there". I am a very black and white sort of fellow and if something seems "out there" I just can't seem to let my body do what others claim it can do( hypnosis, acupuncture,meditation, etc etc).

        Sorry for the tangent but is a highly relaxed state a requirement for ideomotion?

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        • #19
          Sorry for the tangent but is a highly relaxed state a requirement for ideomotion?
          Again, ideomotion is inherent to LIFE, not some special state of mind. The degree to which it is expressed is dependent upon context.
          Barrett L. Dorko

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          • #20
            Proud,

            I've had some very anxious and tense patients in a lot of pain who responded well to elicitation of ideomotion. It is not dependant on a relaxed state of mind; if it were, it would be nigh impossible to elicit in our painful patients!

            Nari

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            • #21
              Originally posted by byronselorme View Post

              It really does not feel like the movements are a fear response. That happens to me after they have happened. I constantly keep questioning myself to see if it is the conscious me that is doing the movements. I keep getting the answer "no".
              Have you ever had a serious injury around this area, even counting years back? Watching this video was eerily familiar because that's exactly what I do if anyone presses gently or even rests a hand on my lower back. I don't really feel afraid, but my muscles jerk and twitch way out of my control. I think the limbic system sometimes (most of the time?) makes judgment calls that we aren't privy to. An interesting reaction, and it will also be interesting to see if it does fade over time. Do you get any skin changes (flushing, redness, sweating)?
              Lauren Clark

              'Tis a poor craftsman who blames his tools.

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              • #22
                Sorry to get to this so late. This is actually not the first time I have seen "jerks" like this with gentle manual contact (wasn't trying to invite ideomotion then, just placing my hands).

                Byron, it certainly looks like a residual defensive action to the "unguarded and loose motion". I think I see some frustration in your reactions and assume that that makes your defenses more alert, your peripheral alarms more sensitive and your auto-responses quicker yet.

                Definitely first thing to do indeed, is lying down.
                And I would say: "do not focus too much on relaxation" - your training has created a very clear picture and expectation of what your body is "supposed" to be like when relaxed - this may create a conflict with ideomotor motion. Maybe?

                Maybe you can focus on wait-and-see - like sometimes taught in martial arts. "Do not focus on anything in particular, be aware of as much as possible from all senses, and learn".

                This is what I would do in your shoes.
                We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin

                I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
                Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

                Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

                We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Clark View Post
                  Have you ever had a serious injury around this area, even counting years back?................... Do you get any skin changes (flushing, redness, sweating)?
                  Hi Lauren,

                  No to both.
                  Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
                  Shavasana Yoga Center

                  "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman

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                  • #24
                    I'm with proud on this one. I also would point you to the literature on this technique. I'm sure they have documented responses like this in their clinical trials.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Barrett Dorko View Post
                      Again, ideomotion is inherent to LIFE, not some special state of mind.
                      I understand this.


                      The degree to which it is expressed is dependent upon context.
                      This is the part I don't understand....clinically. I havn't a clue how to elicit this from patients( is elicit the correct word here?).

                      Watching the video's posted recentely here( and the one byronselorme just posted) are the only snapshot's I've had of watching ideomotion. Byronselorme's video just looked...well...odd to me. It just looked like he was in a trance like state...why?

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by proud View Post
                        Byronselorme's video just looked...well...odd to me. It just looked like he was in a trance like state...why?
                        Hi Proud.

                        The experience is odd. I will definitely admit that. However I am by no means in a trance like state.

                        Being a Yoga guy and a relaxed person in general I am able to relax fairly easily. I closed my eyes only so that I can pay attention to how it feels.

                        In regards to meditation being out there. I would agree the many of the methods use language or concepts that are far to out there for me. However, Herbert Bensen's research and his book The Relaxation Response prompted me to look at it from a different perspective.

                        I believe there is a bit of research now available to bring the idea of meditation into a useable clinical application without the woo-woo that is often associated with it.

                        When I find some good research I will link to it here.
                        Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
                        Shavasana Yoga Center

                        "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Byron,

                          Perhaps your well-above average IDEA of what IDEAmotion is supposed to be has subsumed what it actually is, and is preventing its expression.

                          Thus, your obvious frustration.

                          Fortunately, most patients don't have any "technical" knowledge of ideomotion and only a brief analogy to needing to shift in a chair is sufficient for them to accept its existence.

                          I wonder a bit about bringing both hands around the throat from behind. While I'm certain that you're not worried about your wife choking you to death, I wonder if this is the most non-threatening mode of contact to build a context that is conducive to ideomotion.
                          John Ware, PT
                          Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
                          "Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
                          “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
                          be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3

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                          • #28
                            I believe there is a bit of research now available to bring the idea of meditation into a useable clinical application without the woo-woo that is often associated with it.
                            I yes, I certainly agree that relaxation plays a very important role overall. When it comes to obtaining a relaxed state...as far as I'm concerned...do whatever floats your boat. If you beleive in meditation...it's likley to result in a relaxed state.

                            It's this ideomotor stuff that I can't seem to wrap my head around clinically. I understand it's existance. I can understand how it would/could be applied from a clinical perspective. I just don't know how. How to explain it to a patient. How to assist in it's expression etc etc.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by proud View Post
                              If you beleive in meditation...it's likley to result in a relaxed state.
                              I would say that it is not a belief. Just a technique. Just sitting and being quiet. No chanting no gods, no big ideas, just a technique. Not trying to get you to start or anything. But perhaps that does link to the same difficulty you have with ideomotion?

                              I just don't know how. How to explain it to a patient. How to assist in it's expression etc etc.
                              As far as I know there is no hurry to get this. So take your time. I know that it is strange. If it starts to change my experience of pain I will be grateful. If it doesn't, it feels relatively harmless (note: I have changed to doing this lying down only as I don't enjoy the feeling of jerking my neck around in a seated position).

                              I am definitely not an expert and I have no idea how this would work for someone else. Just testing it out. Hopefully it helps somebody else to understand it better no matter which way their understanding turns. I know I am glad that there is freedom to disagree here.
                              Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
                              Shavasana Yoga Center

                              "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by John W View Post
                                While I'm certain that you're not worried about your wife choking you to death, I wonder if this is the most non-threatening mode of contact to build a context that is conducive to ideomotion.
                                :teeth:

                                She is a great therapist. Notice that I told her about halfway through or so to change her hand position to my shoulders and she did. ( I was getting worried, she has a really good insurance policy on me )

                                We are definitely very clumsy at it now. Lying down is challenging as we don't have any really good place other than the bed.

                                I think my frustration comes from the fast jerky movements are so unexpected that I stop letting go. When I am lying down all of that goes away. I just wanted to document with the video what was happening to see what others thoughts were, see if there were other explanations for what was happening.

                                Thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate it
                                Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
                                Shavasana Yoga Center

                                "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman

                                Comment

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