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  • ??? Ideomotor Jerk!

    Since my wife and I visited Bas about a month ago I have been having some difficulty finding or maintaining some means of starting ideomotor movement.

    It was an inexplicable odd experience when it first started at Bas's office and I have been struck by the strangeness and, for some reason, elusiveness of it.

    So far the only way I have been easily able to start the movement is when my loving wife places her wonderfully warm hands on the back of my shoulders and neck. She actually seems to be quite a natural at it and does not force or coerce the movements in anyway.

    However, this last week a very strange development has occurred. I have now started to have pretty big muscle spasms and fast movements of my head and neck when she starts. I actually had to ask her to stop me from moving too far because of the fear that it brings up in me and how much my body tightens to prevent the excessive movement.

    It seems as though someone is walking through the wiring department and shorting out wires here and there for fun. Some spasms occur throughout my upper torso, some are just localized in the smaller muscles of the neck and back.

    I wonder if anyone else has had any experience with the "Ideomotor Jerk".

    We have both started to become concerned as it doesn't seem to be very helpful in reducing tension, but instead seems to create some. I think..
    Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
    Shavasana Yoga Center

    "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman

  • #2
    Sounds to me like the ideomotion is ready to go places you are not ready to go.--protective responses are kicking into stop the motion. I've had some patients move into some very interesting positions very rapidly much to both of our consernation--sitting on treatment table, and moving into a full backbend over the table. I would recommend tryingthe ideomotion in a different position--maybe supine- or sidelying,http and perhapshave your wife's hands move to your shoulders, or back. It's hard to look for WESS when you are startled, but are the characteristics of correction there?

    Geralyn

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    • #3
      Byron, this does sound as though fear kicks in very early in the piece and your consciousness over-rides instinctive movement.
      As Geralyn said, try a different position such as supine lying, where you may feel less vulnerable, even if you don't feelvulnerable.

      Nari

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      • #4
        Thanks for your responses, I appreciate your help.

        We have tried this so far sitting and lying prone.

        My main question was have others seen this type of fast spasm-like movement? Geralyn, when you say very rapidly would you say that the muscle has gone to a full contraction in approx 1/4 second?
        I haven't read or seen much about what this all entails and I guess I expected slow movements into various positions.

        I don't think protective movements are coming in to start the movement. When lying prone I can let them spasms happen whatever way they like. When I relax and breath and slowly let my guard down this is when the "snap" (yup, scare quotes) movements happen.

        Or are you saying that the "snap" movements are the conscious protective responses?

        Geralyn what is WESS?
        Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
        Shavasana Yoga Center

        "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman

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        • #5
          Byron,

          In case you were wondering, I've never seen this.
          Barrett L. Dorko

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          • #6
            Yes Barrett I was wondering.

            Does that mean we are doing something wrong? Or just get out of the way and let it happen?
            Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
            Shavasana Yoga Center

            "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman

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            • #7
              I doubt you're doing something "wrong."

              Getting out of the way is what you're going to do eventually. I guess
              Barrett L. Dorko

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              • #8
                Byron,

                The first time we time we were trying ideomotion with this women, I stood in front of her--she kept moving very slowly, and softly aware from me--kind of an irregular oval, and my arms weren't long enough to keep up with her. She was experiencing the characteristics of correction: Warmth , Effortless, Softening, and Surprise(WESS) and planned to practice ideomotion at home. When she returned, she reported no success with ideomotion. Remembering my too short arms, and her preferred direction I stood be hind her, touch her head, and she immediately went into this fully extended posture over the table--definitely had the characteristics of surprise, felt warmth throughout her torso, there were no muscle spasms, or any discomfort. She and I were both very surprised, confused, and we decided that I would help her back up to the sitting position.

                Geralyn

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                • #9
                  not alone

                  You are defenitely not alone in experiencing this kind of movement Byron, happened to me as well many times, especially the first few times after I read about ideomotion here on somasiple and decided to have a go at it myself.

                  If anyone here is a Seinfeld fan try to remember any of the episodes in which Elaine dances (or tries to dance..) Thats what i looked like. Body was twitching left and right, sideways up and down as soon as I "let down my guard". I even posted about it here actually, because just like you i were a bit worried about it. Especially concerning the movements of my head and neck which I had been having some trouble with at that time.

                  I´m by no means an authority but, judging from my own experience, when you let down your guard the body tends to go where it want´s to go. For me the jerkiness subsided over time. Also at this time I was fortunate to get in touch with a good feldenkrais teacher who encouraged me to go on and take up doing awareness through movement lessons as well.

                  So, long story short. Yes, i have had an experience like yours and over time it changed significantly, to a degree where there rarely is any jerkiness during ideomotion.

                  Pure speculation on my part, but might it be connected to the level of tension you are unconscioulsy holding?

                  /Martin

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                  • #10
                    Youtube "The Jerks"

                    Thank you again for your responses.

                    Hi Martin, I like Feldenkrais movements as well as the Hanna Somatics that Diane introduced me to. I am able to move quite smoothly and freely in so many ways. Can always review it further though. I do know that there is tension in the areas that "jerk". We shall see if allowing them do react this way is ultimately helpful.

                    Here is a quick video of "The Jerks". I have to admit, my mirror neurons do not like watching this video.

                    [YT]MKMSFgso-UQ[/YT]

                    I am now only going to have my wife do this with me on lying down to stop and righting reflexes or fear responses from frustrating me.
                    When I am lying down at least I don't have as much concern for gravity taking the movements too far.

                    It really does not feel like the movements are a fear response. That happens to me after they have happened. I constantly keep questioning myself to see if it is the conscious me that is doing the movements. I keep getting the answer "no".
                    Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
                    Shavasana Yoga Center

                    "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman

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                    • #11
                      Well, I'm reluctant to say anything because what do I know about this ideomotion stuff? Not much. But I'm going to share my reaction anyway.

                      First, why are you doing this? Is there a problem you are trying to solve?

                      Why did she decide to put her hands where she does?

                      As I look at it, this is what runs through my mind:

                      I would do it laying down for 2 reasons - less fear of gravity causing injury and greater ability to relax.

                      While I am watching, I keep thinking I want this guy laying down (with a soft but at least 8" bolster under the knees) and I want one of my hands on the back of his neck and one on his chest, like on the sternum. My attention is constantly drawn to his chest. I'm feeling like there's too much attention in one place and there's tension in another that's ignored, that they both want attention.

                      For whatever it's worth, that's my reaction and a pretty gut one at that.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I don't think anatomical placement of the hand or hands is all that important, but here are a few suggestions which may or may not help.

                        Try one hand on a bony place such as the sternum. If nothing seems to be happening (including WESS), move to another spot, such as the tibial area or forehead, if lying down is the choice of position.

                        Keep the hand contact light, barely perceptible. It may be spurious, but light contact seems to talk to the CNS better.

                        Other than that, I'm at a loss to explain why the spasmic movements occur. It goes to show that not everybody reacts in the same way to anything in the therapeutic field and we have to recognise individual differences.

                        Nari

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                        • #13
                          I twitch sometimes. I twitched quite a bit when Kirsten first started treating my shoulder. We both decided to ignore it. It went away after awhile. I decided it was defense, not defect.

                          About the back pain. Something that helps some people sometimes, is lying prone in extension, but not with the top half of the body higher - rather with the lower half of the body higher. I suppose the sensors can read gravity as much as anything else; when you mess with the input from gravity, it can help the brain get off the square it's been stuck on. Possibly. As a theory. Possibly. As a unique event/novel input.
                          Diane
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                          • #14
                            For what it's worth...looks like you are simply falling asleep to me. Just curious, are you someone who meditates?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by proud View Post
                              For what it's worth...looks like you are simply falling asleep to me. Just curious, are you someone who meditates?
                              Proud, I don't know if you meant that to be funny but it sure was .

                              I am nowhere near falling asleep here but I am relaxed.

                              And yes I meditate.
                              Byron Selorme -SomaSimpleton and Science Based Yoga Educator
                              Shavasana Yoga Center

                              "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" Richard Feynman

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