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#1 | |
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Participant
![]() Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Amherst, WI
Posts: 7,051
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I am currently reading a textbook on microeconomics that, to my surprise, has an awful lot to say about what I do for a living. Even though the following selection is not specific to microeconomics, its early appearance in the book caught my attention.
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It may be of benefit to start by specifying the variables that are relevant to the solution. John Childs has recently established some of the variables associated with the solution (with at least one particular manipulation). These variables are (hopefully) well known but may not be the only variables that people feel are relevant to the solution. After we develop a working list of variables I think it would be important to specify some assumptions we are making. Lastly we could come up with some hypotheses to test. I’m hoping to encourage people to come up with the solution to manipulation; a free market of ideas if you will. I hope the discussion remains largely on task in coming up with the manipulation solution and any fierce conversation is toward this end. Please support your thoughts as you can. I look forward to your thoughts. |
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#2 | ||
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroplastician
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Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 10,193
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__________________
Diane HumanAntiGravitySuit blog; Neurotonics PT Teamblog; Diane Jacobs.com; Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth |
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#3 |
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Participant
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Location: Amherst, WI
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Hi Diane,
We all are like people who pound on Pepsi machines in the sense that our theory drives our practice, but you can see how the analogy caught my eye. I guess what I mean is that manipulation clearly works for some people. The idea here is to talk about why. To find the correct answer, the best we can, to the puzzle. Many are quite concerned about the "exact mechanism" as if there is only one to begin with but I'm more concerned about applying what we already now about how the body works and applying that info as best we can. I've heard some people begin to explain this phenomena we observe and I'm hoping to encourage that. I think subluxation theory has already been deemed insufficient at best if not completely wrong but if someone has some reason they feel they can run with it, feel free. Last edited by Jon Newman; 02-02-2006 at 04:41 AM. |
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#4 |
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Arbiter
![]() ![]() Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Nanaimo, BC
Age: 36
Posts: 1,775
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Are you hoping the discussion will include lower grade mobilisation as well? Or is the intent to lump them together as Diane's mobilipulators? Just want to be clear.
eric |
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#5 |
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Participant
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Location: Amherst, WI
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Hi Eric,
Good question. I'm quite sure some variables used to explain manipulation will also explain other approaches to care. I think these should be included in the whole of the explanation. After the thread goes on maybe we can pare down aspects that may be particular to manipulation if there are any such unique offerings. |
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#6 |
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NeuroNut Evangelist
![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: ACT Aust
Posts: 6,097
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A wee bit of history - in the 1980s, movement = reduction of pain. So everyone mobilised joints from Gr1-4, and those with the appropriate piece of paper sometimes added a Gr5 (HVLA). People got better. Looking back, nobody knew why; but the meme stayed - free up a joint and pain will decrease or go away.
The fact that to get to a joint one has to touch/palpate with varying force through skin and subdermal structures was never considered until the last several years; and now the speculation that the pain relieving mechanism is neuromodulation seems logical. People still crack interphalangeal joints - and it feels good; people perform self manips and they feel good. The stiffness=pain meme was still loking good, but doubts crept in. Why weren't ALL stiff people in pain?? So stiffness/poor posture looked poor candidates for the pain experience; and this has been more or less shown to be accurate. A rotated or "subluxed" joint in the spine is under severe questioning; Maitland describes the distinct changes in the topography of a vertebral joint in relation to its neighbours to be "thickening". No-one knew why thickening occured. After a manip or even a Gr3,4, the 'thickening' vanished. Why? With an awful lot of unanswered questions, the big question remains: what gives the instantaneous pain relief? The only logical possibility is: rapid neuromodulation through mechanoreceptors...surface and subdermal. If there is strong argument for "putting the joint back in place" - I would need some convincing to swallow that bottle of Pepsi. Nari |
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#7 |
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Arbiter
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Putting pain aside for a moment, is there any evidence that manipulation decreases joint stiffness or improves movement?
I have been manipulated a number of times in the past but not once has the manipulator ever repeated the clinical 'motion' tests that were used to determine I needed a good cracking. I'm not personally aware of any such studies that look at this measure either. Eric |
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#8 |
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Participant
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Location: Amherst, WI
Posts: 7,051
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Hi Nari,
I happen to be one of those people who cracks their knuckles with infrequent regularity. It feels good and I have no idea what exactly prompts me to do it but I do know that it is not pain. I'm sort of the same way with massage though. It seems to feel the best when I'm not actually in pain. Perhaps it's just me. Eric, my fingers don't move better before or after a crack them. Perhaps others have a different experience. As far as variables that predict success with manipulation (that list I referred to) we know we can include, at least: 1. No symptoms distal to knee 2. Short duration of LBP (<16 days) 3. Normal hip rotation of at least one hip 4. Low FABQ score (<19) 5. Spinal hypomobility at any level of lumbar spine 6. Oswestry LBP questionnaire of a 30% or greater Other variables can be explored but because of limited studies rational speculation will have to occur. What other variables do you feel might predict pain relief? Last edited by Jon Newman; 02-02-2006 at 05:35 AM. |
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#9 |
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NeuroNut Evangelist
![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: ACT Aust
Posts: 6,097
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I am a knucklecracker too, and it is rarely for pain reasons. Just feels good to hear the pops and cracks. But I won't buy placebo effect alone....I don't think.
Expectation?...maybe. Adding to the list: Expectation of a quick fix Anticipation of a quick fix. Placebo Neuromodulation through tissues where the most movement would occur - roughly in the area of hypomobility and / or pain....--> torsion of the dermal and subdermal structures producing lengthening prior to the HVLA - a prerequisite to 'success'? As for evidence that manips increase ROM, ??? Anecdotally, that seems to be the case. Haven't found anything to support that hypothesis, but maybe I haven't looked hard enough. Nari |
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#10 |
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Member
![]() Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 32
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The Spine Journal 2 (2002) 357–371
Review Article Neurophysiological effects of spinal manipulation Joel G. Pickar, DC, PhD* Palmer Center for Chiropractic Research, 1000 Brady Street, Davenport, IA 52803, USA Received 23 February 2001; accepted 15 May 2002 Abstract Background context: Despite clinical evidence for the benefits of spinal maniputation and the apparent wide usage of it, the biological mechanisms underlying the effects of spinal manipulation are not known. Although this does not negate the clinical effects of spinal manipulation, it hinders acceptance by the wider scientific and health-care communities and hinders rational strategies for improving the delivery of spinal manipulation. Purpose: The purpose of this review article is to examine the neurophysiological basis for the effects of spinal manipulation. Study design : A review article discussing primarily basic science literature and clinically oriented basic science studies. Methods: This review article draws primarily from the peer-reviewed literature available on Med- line. Several textbook publications and reports are referenced. A theoretical model is presented de- scribing the relationships between spinal manipulation, segmental biomechanics, the nervous system and end-organ physiology. Experimental data for these relationships are presented. Results: Biomechanical changes caused by spinal manipulation are thought to have physiological consequences by means of their effects on the inflow of sensory information to the central nervous system. Muscle spindle afferents and Golgi tendon organ afferents are stimulated by spinal manipulation. Smaller-diameter sensory nerve fibers are likely activated, although this has not been demonstrated di- rectly. Mechanical and chemical changes in the intervertebral foramen caused by a herniated intervertebral disc can affect the dorsal roots and dorsal root ganglia, but it is not known if spinal manipulation directly affects these changes. Individuals with herniated lumbar discs have shown clinical improvement in response to spinal manipulation. The phenomenon of central facilitation is known to increase the receptive field of central neurons, enabling either subthreshold or innocuous stimuli access to cen- tral pain pathways. Numerous studies show that spinal manipulation increases pain tolerance or its threshold. One mechanism underlying the effects of spinal manipulation may, therefore, be the manipulation’s ability to alter central sensory processing by removing subthreshold mechanical or chemical stimuli from paraspinal tissues. Spinal manipulation is also thought to affect reflex neural outputs to both muscle and visceral organs. Substantial evidence demonstrates that spinal manipulation evokes paraspinal muscle reflexes and alters motoneuron excitability. The effects of spinal manipulation on these somatosomatic reflexes may be quite complex, producing excitatory and inhibitory effects. Whereas substantial information also shows that sensory input, especially noxious input, from paraspinal tissues can reflexively elicit sympathetic nerve activity, knowledge about spinal manipulation’s effects on these reflexes and on end-organ function is more limited. Conclusions: A theoretical framework exists from which hypotheses about the neurophysiological effects of spinal manipulation can be developed. An experimental body of evidence exists indicating that spinal manipulation impacts primary afferent neurons from paraspinal tissues, the motor control system and pain processing. Experimental work in this area is warranted and should be encouraged to help better understand mechanisms underlying the therapeutic scope of spinal manipulation. © 2002 Elsevier Science Inc. All rights reserved. |
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#11 | |
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Admin, Moderator...
![]() ![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: France
Age: 53
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#12 |
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Arbiter
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Location: Adelaide
Age: 35
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Welcome Matty.
Bernard, I'm sure there are some DCs who are genuinely interested in a plausible explanation for the mechanisms of their technique. Looks like he agrees with Nari. One aspect of manipulation that intrigues me is the fact that most research shows that cavitation (the pop) is not associated with better outcomes, yet without it you don't get that acute 'feel good' sensation immediately after. Is there a difference between the neuromodulation mechanisms for manipulation analgesia and those for manipulation euphoria? Luke Last edited by Luke Rickards; 02-02-2006 at 02:09 PM. |
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#13 | |
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Admin, Moderator...
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#14 |
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Arbiter
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Matt,
Do you have access the pdf or reference list of that paper? |
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#15 |
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Admin, Moderator...
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Luke,
many abstracts but few full texts. See related links. Neurophysiological effects of spinal manipulation. http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S1529-9430(02)00400-X |
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#16 |
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Participant
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Location: Amherst, WI
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Hi Nari,
I think expectation is a player in the equation. The difficulty is assessing this feature. Many people are willing to admit or know they have an expectation but plenty of people simply have an implicit expectations. As I consider expectations, they are quite similar to personal theories of how things work and the difficulty of assessing this is highlighted in my opening analogy. If we add it to our list I think it would be best to have some literature supporting that expectations are important in pain relief. Luke, Thanks for the contribution. I think it is helpful to rule out variables that are otherwise potential elements of the theory. I've read that and I'll try to post the reference unless someone beats me to it. Matt, I'm glad to see someone is looking to describe manipulation's neurophysiological effects. I know there is some literature out there but it is few and far between. I'd like to see more if you have anything other than the suggestion that the affect might be neurophysiological. I think Tim Flynn's study points toward that factor being a strong player amongst explanations given the lack of mechanical problems in the final predictor variables and the sheer number of mechanical problems that were considered but excluded in the study. |
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#17 |
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Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 104
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Jon,
I appreciate your efforts here particularly with regards to your comment on implicit expectation. At the risk of being glib however I have to ask- how do we know whether or not a manipulation occured? Gil |
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#18 |
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Participant
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Location: Amherst, WI
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Hi Gil,
I'll have to leave the answer to that question to those who make this their preferred approach to care. I can only presume that if a high velocity thrust is performed after taking up slack of a composite ROM that "a manipulation" has occurred, whatever that means. As far as I know, no one who actually uses this technique has chimed in. Matt might but I don't know. Last edited by Jon Newman; 03-02-2006 at 01:15 AM. |
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#19 | ||
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Participant
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#20 |
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Junior Member
![]() Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 19
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the answer is easy as to why it works only sometimes.
#1 was it truly subluxed #2 that sublux was the primary restriction. that is the answer as to why any individual treatment approach corrects a portion of the population....usually instantly. they really had what the treatment proposes to correct, and that restriction was the primary restriction in the body. thats why i do Joint mobilizations Fascial Muscle whats the patient primary restriction?...the rest are secondaries... and nothing goes on without the neurological model added....of course! nothing! Neurological is not the only way to effect change...some joints do need to be moved. especially if it is subluxed and the primary. otherwise it is useless. when i was a kid in school if you banged on a lot of things they gave free stuff, or returned your change! especially drink machines... that of course is giving away my age, and how much better pepsi machines are! now if you find a really old pepsi machine, and it takes your change, give it a shot, it might work, otherwise, wise up and quit banging! we are all handymen/women and if you have all the tools you can fix anything (that is not organic) but if you use a hammer for everything, i bet your work is hit and miss, and not always works the way you want... wrong tool, wrong job. the belief that any one tool is the perfect tool...makes one a tool. the ability to identify the primary and have the tools to treat it, makes you a handyman, not a tool man. right tool, right job, instant success each and everytime, why? primary and correct tool and the knowledge nothing stands alone. ever look at a handymans collection? they got things in there you don't even know what it's for....but for just one certain job, you need that tool...hardly ever, but sometimes, you get a call for that job, and if you do not have that tool, then lets not take out the hammer! therefore I bet any therapy that has success is because someone had what they said they had, and that guy knew what to do for that job.... so why so much debate over this does not work, that does not work... it only works for the patient that requires it, it is not the fix all to end all. if you fail to include the tools, and believe that other therapies are not effective, then how can you do a good job all the time? if you recognize the simple elegant truth in what i have said, your ego will die, your mind will open up and you will be able to be the handyman, you wish you could be. the primary, the correct tool... lots of good therapies...if it is not beyond your scope of practice, then get in their man and throw away the disbelief and see who needs which tool... instant success every time, open mind, full tool box, handyman. and again everything is neurological wrapped around a primary of either joint, fascia, muscle...loaded with tons of secondaries! now back away from the pepsi machine! Last edited by junglelord; 03-02-2006 at 04:33 AM. |
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#21 |
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Writer and Clinician
![]() Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 58
Posts: 5,133
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I thought you were leaving.
This stream of consciousmess (pun intended) type of posting probably isn't going to help your cause, assuming you actually have a coherent thought in here or a line of reasoning that would best be articulated in something other than an unpunctuated sonnet pattern of your own invention. Unless rudimentary sentence structure is something foreign to you I'd suggest you consider using it convey whatever the heck it is you're talking about. I read constantly and I can't figure it out. Oh yes, I don't think it's my ego, in case you were thinking about that sort of comeback. |
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#22 | |||||
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Participant
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Location: Amherst, WI
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I'm trying to catch up on some citations. Here's a few references (only some of which I had or could read the full text) as it pertains to expectation.
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#23 |
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NeuroNut Evangelist
![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: ACT Aust
Posts: 6,097
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Interesting thoughts here, jon.
In the study of expectations and the placebo-controlled RCTs, I think it clearly points out, as we suspected, that control/measurement of expectations would be almost impossible. Like blood pressure, they will change from minute to minute, pre-, peri- and post-trial. At best, an RCT would show a sort of trend. In the patient/chiro survey, no surprises. The general public does not know what PTs do, apart from exercises, modalities and what they call 'massage'; whereas they know chiros "put spines and hips back into place" and that they manipulate. It all sounds much more dramatic. Even a chiro who does not support the subluxation meme would find his/her patients do. nari |
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#24 |
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Admin, Moderator...
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#25 | |
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Arbiter
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In the October issue of the (now International) Journal of Osteopathic Medicine, the same issue containing Barrett's Analgesia of Movement, there is an article titled "Intervertebral dysfunction: a discussion of the manipulable spinal lesion". This article reviews theories for an essential diagnosis that might lead one to consider manipulation (not necessarily high-velocity) as a logical intervention. Some of these address acute spinal pain and others chronic pain. These include neurological models (inlcuding muscles contraction), meniscoid entrapment/extrapment, z-joint sprain, caspular inflammation, peri-articluar adhesion, nucleus pulposis displacement, fat pad dysfunction. Perhaps we should dissect these as well (eg I don't know why you would want to manipulate someone with a joint sprain). I sometimes have patients with very localised spinal pain who say that their pain feels like something is "locked" or "stuck" or "jammed" etc (Bogduk suggests a plausible explanation for this symptom is meniscoid entrapment). I know that if I give them a gentle manipulation (in these cases, now the only ones I use HVLA for, you don't seem to need much force) then the relief is instant and I don't see them again for the same problem. Interestingly, quite often immediately after the 'pop' they start to giggle like a naughty school kid and will chuckle uncontrollably few for several minutes. I have actually had this myself, and I know Matt has too. Any ideas? I would have thought endorphin release but there doesn't seem to be evidence that manipulation results in increased endorphine secretion. Luke Last edited by Luke Rickards; 03-02-2006 at 05:19 PM. |
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#26 |
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Junior Member
![]() Join Date: Jan 2006
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sorry double post.
Last edited by junglelord; 03-02-2006 at 03:07 PM. |
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#27 |
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Junior Member
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Posts: 19
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primary is the cause
secondary is an effect. if you use a therapy modality with instant success, then the technique matched the cause. same theapy different patient, but no results, the lesion you are addressing this time in this patient is an effect...not the cause. simple enough? chiros by and large are not handymen because they only tend to rely on hammers (HVLAT). if your subluxation is the primary or the cause of all your problems then all you need is a hammer. if you have a subluxation secondary (effect) from another primary (cause) be it fascial, muscle, scar, etc, then put the hammer down... how do you know it is not a primary? the patient has no relief! is that simple enough Dorko? so how full is your toolbox? are you a handyman, or a toolman? are you treating cause or effect....is everything one cause? therefore correct tool (therapy) for correct primary. i spend an hour with a patient, i do not do things over and over, I have lots of tools, and i have yet to see a cause without effects. so i treat all the systems within that hour, so by trial or circumstance i will treat the primary. again since primarys always have secondaries, i tend to know what the primary is due to experince and i think it important to smooth out the secondaries...that fills in an hour of Integrative Systems Therapy. those with less experience in determining the primary will still be successful, because they treat each system anyway. so they treat cause and effect...which in itself must be successful. since a one hour treatment is average in our proffesion, it only makes sense, keeps you from getting board, and the patient is addressed at every level of dysfunction. after all how many times do you want to do the same thing for an hour? I treat joints, fascia, muscle, bones, skin, ANS. there are great therapies out there for each system. PS hows my spelling, sentence structure, and grammer? |
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#28 |
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Writer and Clinician
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In that last sentence you misspelled "How's" and "grammar."
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#29 |
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Participant
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Location: Amherst, WI
Posts: 7,051
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Jungle your random ecclectic approach is certainly simplistic enough. Since this thread is specific to those that respond positively to manipulation I'm exploring what is going on. Your vote that a subluxation was reuduced is duly noted.
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#30 |
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Junior Member
![]() Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 6
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We may be able to reach a consensus on one thing: manipulation of the lumbar spine provides quick relief of lower back pain in many individuals.
That said, there are many questions that should be addressed relative to the utility of manipulation. First, is it safe? Second, is the 'dysfunction' to which it is purportedly directed actually there? Third, how can we be sure that we have addressed the dysfunction by manipulation? Fourth, are there other, more effective ways to accomplish the desired change? Since chiropractors are the (relatively) pre-eminent users of manipulative techniques, I wish that we were also the pre-eminent researchers of manipulative techniques. Unfortunately, this does not seem to be the case. However, that fact does not diminish the fact that manipulation seems to be very helpful to many sufferers of lower back pain. My impression is that manipulation of the lumbar spinal joints is not specific, does not reposition anything for any significant length of time, and is generally very safe. Yes, even HVLA. In fact, as to safety, I would go so far as to assert that use of HVLA in the lumbar spine is safer than using hot packs. Yet when we use manipulation in the lumbar spine we must also acknowledge that some patients do not feel better, and some feel worse. Thank you for this thread, and I appreciate the thoughtful responses of all that have posted. I hope that the 'tool' of manipulation isn't dismissed as useless simply because we chiropractors utilize it. By the way, I'm not asserting any relevance of manipulation as addressing the 'chiropractic subluxation'. I reject the subluxation theory for many reasons, not the least of which is on a practical basis that if it hasn't been proven to exist in the past 100 years, it is very unlikely to be proven any time soon. Last edited by chiroortho; 03-02-2006 at 04:54 PM. |
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#31 | |
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Arbiter
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Wrong. A positive response to treatment does not validate the treatment hypothesis. Last edited by Luke Rickards; 03-02-2006 at 05:22 PM. |
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#32 |
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Junior Member
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Posts: 19
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what does it validate then if not that the patient has that dysfunction as the primary (not hypothesis)?
theories will come and go, success will never disappear. the body is a set of systems, we all that learned in school. no one walks in missing one of those systems. i treat a with a wholebody whole systems approach. not simplistic....holistic. no one system is the cause of every problem. no one cause is without it's effects. again there are lots of good therapies for each system. the body being a complex synergy of those systems cannot be reduced to a one therapy approach. And the chicken or egg question should pop into your mind at some point (cause vs effect). since that is almost impossible to figure out every time, the first time.... then if you have a 60 min slot like i do, then you treat every dyfunction present with each system. again, hit or miss, the cause and its effects will be treated. If you see a chiro and you are instantly better, then yes that was the primary...but if it keeps going out of place, look else where. if spend more then 5 mins with a patient, then you will have time to treat each system dysfunction. and yes subluxations are real, but not always the main cause for their presence. when it is the main cause, one adjustment, and you are better, and will not be back. reductionism only reduces your success... name me one patient that presents without any of the systems you learned in school... and just why did you learn all those parts and sytems in the first place if one thing fixes everything? because no one thing fixes everything...so put that schooling to good use. so then tell me why joints, bones, fascia, skin, muscle, ANS, would not be involved in the cause and effect relationship. manuel therapy is like martial arts, and a arguement over which is best...this mentality is so stupid. chiro don't work, physio don't work, fascial therapy don't work, blah blah blah along came Bruce Lee, and he said it is all important! He was correct. Be water my friend. the only great debate is how anyone could have so much schooling, learn everything, then think only one thing matters. Or that you can treat with so much prejudice and ego, that certain systems do not matter. The service of the patient should be the focus of your practice, not your ego. unless you have 100% results then maybe you should include therapy for each specific systems, then your ego has lost BUT your patient has won. ARE YOU A REPEAT OFFENDER? how many times does your patient repeat a treatment. how long before you fill up that tool box? am i making any sense to anyone out there? Last edited by junglelord; 03-02-2006 at 08:40 PM. |
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#33 | |
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NeuroNut Evangelist
![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: ACT Aust
Posts: 6,097
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chiroortho,
I for one agree that a HVLA can be highly effective; its effect may be temporary (or not) and it would be a very useful thing to include in a Rx plan. Can you say what you understand is the physiological rationale behind the rapid relief, for either pain or dysfunction or both, that a manip gives? There are so many hypotheses out there and always have been, yet no-one seems to be close to an explanation....yet. Nari Jungle: Quote:
Last edited by nari; 03-02-2006 at 08:51 PM. |
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#34 |
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Participant
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Location: Amherst, WI
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One of my favorite commercials on TV right now is for a cellular phone provider and centers on a fellow in a cubicle poking pins in a voodoo doll. His co-worker is quizzing him about the dolls and comes to find out that one of the dolls is for late fees and the other is for "overage" charges. This co-worker informs the voodoo practitioner that company x has done away with those charges. The voodoo practitioner looks at his dolls in astonishment and says "It works!"
Jungle, Y following x does not mean x caused y. Last edited by Jon Newman; 03-02-2006 at 09:29 PM. |
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#35 |
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Junior Member
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Nari I've come to the conclusion that the simplest explanation is oftentimes the best, and in the case of pain, it would likely be the stimulation of mechanoreceptors that results in relief. As to improvement in segmental mobility, it would be improvement of discomfort => better movement/less spasm. Stretching of the articular capsule is an important factor in my opinion.
I realize that there are lots of fancy mechanisms postulated to be the essence of manipulations' effects. Perhaps they're right. But for me the simplest explanation is hard to beat. Greg |
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#36 |
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Location: Amherst, WI
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Hi Greg,
While I disagree that stimulation of the mechanoreceptor is the best explanation for pain relief with spinal manipulation it certainly could be one of the variables we add to our list. Please add any citations that help support this (I know there are some). |
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#37 |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroplastician
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My question about mechanoreceptors would be, which ones/where exactly? And how do you know?
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Diane HumanAntiGravitySuit blog; Neurotonics PT Teamblog; Diane Jacobs.com; Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth |
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#38 | |
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Participant
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Location: Amherst, WI
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Hi Bernard,
Thanks for that JG Pickar article. I'm doubtful I'll get as deeply into it as some other articles I read, but I could be wrong. One reason is that early on the author states "During spinal manipulation, the practitioner delivers a dynamic thrust (impulse) to a specific vertebra. The clinician controls the velocity, magnitude and direction of the impulse." However it would seem that we now know that a specific vertebra is not manipulated nor is anyone able to truly control those elements as it pertains to its specific effect on the vertebrae. In fact the author later states in the same section, "The large variability in the applied forces and durations should be recognized. the impact of this variability on the biological mechanisms that could contribute to the clinical effects of manipulation is unknown." It decreased my motivation to read the many pages of rational speculation that followed. Also the premise of this understandably lengthy examination is as follows Quote:
I haven't given up on it yet but unless someone points to this paper as containing the best summary of manipulation theory to date I don't feel compelled to go through it with a fine tooth comb. Has anyone else attempted a reading of it yet? |
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#39 |
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NeuroNut Evangelist
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Location: ACT Aust
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I didn't read it fully, (getting distracted by geology again) but the conclusion, quoted in your post, jon, tells us nothing, really. There has to be something, I presume, that distinguishes a (passive) HVLA from a Gr4+ mob, for instance; or do they result in the same outcome consistently? (the latter is a lot tougher on the therapist's thumbs..) or PPIVMs, which I understand are shown to be nonspecific as well??
Nari |
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#40 | ||
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Junior Member
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Good questions, great discussion.
Jon and Diane, it may be of interest to you that an RCT is in progress relative to SMT/NSAIDs for acute low back pain. Here is the reference: Quote:
Quote:
Interesting discussion, thanks. Greg |
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#41 |
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Participant
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Location: Amherst, WI
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Hi Greg,
Thanks for the references. We could add that to the list of variables but it may be premature at this point as there has been no study (that I know of) of the neurophysiological response of the facet joint receptors corresponding to the unique strain that HVLA produces. Also, I'm not certain how that relates to nociception except that it might act as a gating mechanism. It would have to be demonstrated that deformation of the same mechanoreceptors through some other movement (active or passive) is insufficient to produce a similar neurophysiological effect (in order to actually necessitate the HVLA, not just show it works). Hi Nari, The author does go on to demonstrate a variety of physiological responses to manipulation many of which may occur with other types of movement also. Few of the physiological responses explored had much to do with pain per se. This may be why he stated "improves physiologic function" (which isn't definitively demonstrated in my opinion) versus relieves pain. I'll add one more variable to the list that is fairly popular in the literature right now, the hypomobile segment. I'll add a reference a bit later. |
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#42 | |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroplastician
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Location: Weyburn Sask.
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From the second abstract:
Quote:
__________________
Diane HumanAntiGravitySuit blog; Neurotonics PT Teamblog; Diane Jacobs.com; Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth |
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#43 | |
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Participant
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Location: Amherst, WI
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Quote:
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#44 |
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Participant
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Location: Amherst, WI
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I just realized I had already included the hypomobile segment in an earlier post but the extra reference is pertinent anyway.
Anyone else with variables they feel are important to consider? Greg, I appreciate your contributions. Let's keep that FJC strain thing on the list. Luke notes that patients that state they feel like they need to be manipulated because of a feeling of a "locked joint" are people he is more likely to manipulate. Luke, I've got a couple of questions. Is the locking sensation itself painful or does it seem to be in addition to the patient's of description of pain? Would you be able to post a citation for the articles exploring the "manipulable lesion" in the October issue of IJOM? Thanks. |
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#45 |
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Arbiter
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Location: Adelaide
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Jon,
Apparently the locking/jamming is painful. The sensation is made more acute in a particular direction of movement. Sorry, I can't post a citation becasue the journal wasn't listed on Medline in 2003. Luke |
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#46 |
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Participant
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Thanks Luke,
Do you remember who the authors were? |
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#47 |
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Working his butt off in Fellowship Training
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Location: San Antonio, Texas, USA
Age: 36
Posts: 2,664
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Great discussion.
I have long since abandoned the "joint" aspects of manipulation, and I think that the effects are almost entirely (if not 100%) neurophysiological. I'm not sure Pickar's paper covers the whole argument, but it's a good start. After reading a lot of Barrett's work, I am beginning to think that the only reason manipulation ever works is that it provides a neurofacilitation stimulus that allows some ideomotor movement to occur. Whether we agree or disagree with using manipulation as a tool, I agree that it is the effect we should be pursuing, and I think there are probably other ways to get that then cracking backs. Since I've no proof there is, I guess I'll continue the practice for now, but everytime I do it I kind of think "this is 21st century healthcare?". Great topic, Jon. ![]() J
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Jason Silvernail DPT Board-Certified in Orthopedic Physical Therapy Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist Fellow, US-Army Baylor Orthopedic Manual Therapy Program "It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage, but what you have come to understand and are willing to express." -Barrett Dorko PT "To speak or write in wrong terms means to think in wrong terms." - GD Maitland PT (1924 - 2010) |
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#48 |
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Writer and Clinician
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Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
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Jason,
I'm very pleased to see you've returned. Do you think these issues are of any real interest to your fellow servicemen? Specifically AlexB. and Childs. They don't exactly return my calls. |
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#49 |
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Working his butt off in Fellowship Training
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Location: San Antonio, Texas, USA
Age: 36
Posts: 2,664
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Well, I can't really speak for them (though I'm sure you're not asking me to).
I believe the current push, at least to speak of my knowledge of the state of research in military PT, is to get outcomes reported from common interventions we use, to separate wheat from chaff. I believe the thrust is more clinically/outcome based research, "does treating someone with X lead to better outcomes than with Y?" I believe many of us in the PT community are more concerned at this point with demonstrating outcomes to patients and payers than in constructing a defensible theory for why some of the things we use work. I don't believe that the theory is unimportant, just relatively less so given the pressure for outcomes from payers and other healthcare providers. Especially with our ongoing "competition" from the many other providers who treat similar problems as we do. It is my opinion that the central difference between your position and theirs is one of research emphasis, nothing more. They don't deny these aren't pressing questions, I just think they see other questions as more integral to the survival and success of the profession in the short term. I'm glad to be back, though a full work schedule and taking 8 credits at night for my tDPT program is keeping me busy... J
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Jason Silvernail DPT Board-Certified in Orthopedic Physical Therapy Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist Fellow, US-Army Baylor Orthopedic Manual Therapy Program "It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage, but what you have come to understand and are willing to express." -Barrett Dorko PT "To speak or write in wrong terms means to think in wrong terms." - GD Maitland PT (1924 - 2010) |
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#50 |
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Participant
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Location: Amherst, WI
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Jason,
Any idea when they're going to study MFR? There's apparently 50,000 therapists out there using it. |
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