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Old 02-01-2006, 05:45 AM   #1
Walt Fritz
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Default Myofascial Release; The Great Conversation

Diane, Nari, and Barrett,

Nari, I will start a thread on Myofascial Release (thanks for the help). But first I want answer and respond to a few of the questions and comments that have been made. To start, I want my background to be clear. I took my first MFR seminar from John Barnes in 1992, at the height of the “crushing” (more on this later). I began instructing with John in 1995 and have assisted at over 50 seminars with him over the past 10 years. I have seen John demonstrate techniques on hundreds of students and treat many patients over the years. I have a very successful cash practice where I do 100% MFR, or as close to this as one can get. I tend to work more on the structural end of the MFR scale, but anything can happen in the treatment room.

I understand that many readers may have a negative opinion of MFR, but what has fostered this? Is it the lack of research? Search around a bit, including on PubMed. You will find many citations. A friend, Carol Davis, PT, PhD at the University of Miami, recently presented a poster research study regarding MFR and the treatment of kyphosis in the elderly at an APTA conference. Pretty mainstream stuff. We all pull from many disparate sources to explain our work, and John is no different. Ask yourself whether the proof you use to explain your work is rationalization or reality. Search PubMed for many of the other treatment modalities we practice and see what you find. Many will come up blank.

Diane, I can’t break my MFR practice down to “outside the body” or “interior renovating” type, as you referred to it. How can any of us reduce what we do to one or the other? Has none of you put your hands on someone and they report that they felt an emotion or memory of some sort? Much has been written on Rehab Edge about MFR encouraging repressed emotion and memories to be brought to the surface. People have gone as far to say that what we are doing is illegal (this pretty much sums up “Not in Kansas Anymore”). Had any of the people who commented on this bothered to attend one of John’s seminars, they would have heard him say that he teaches every therapist never to counsel, and never to tell anybody what to think, feel or do, never try to make anybody express emotions, or to do anything that does not feel natural to them. We have found that creating safety and mutual respect allow the individual to express themselves in their own way. We never force, we never lead. Lurking on an MFR chat line or blog, where enthusiast patients and therapists talk about a method that really works for them can be rather misleading, especially if one really knows little about how MFR is taught by John. But disparaging a patient’s experience in healing as rubbish is insensitive and churlish. Do some folks go overboard? Surely they do, but this is not how John teaches MFR. Having a patient go through a release or unwinding and finding a connection with an earlier event in their lives, either physical or emotional, is one of the beautiful things about this work. BUT, it is their discovery to make. Is it illegal or unethical for a patient to discover things about themselves? I think not. Maybe others should look inward as to whether they allow their patients feel safe enough to actually feel.

Diane, of course a person’s nervous system has bearing on treatment effects. You may call what you see as a result of treatment easily explainable through your knowledge of the nervous system, and you would be correct. You are successfully working within the paradigm of your treatment methodology. Let me give you an example. On another thread on SomaSimple, Barrett posted two photographs of a patient’s lower extremities when viewed from the head. (http://www.somasimple.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1835)
He postulated that the rotated right leg was caused by uneven neural tension. If, in treating by this rationale, the legs were brought back into a more normal alignment, he was correct, or at least he used a rationale that fits with his treatment method. From a basic MFR perspective of evaluation, one may find that the right hemipelvis is anteriorly rotated, relative to the left, causing the femur to roll inward due to the orientation of the acetabulum. If I use MFR to treat accordingly and the legs are more even afterward, then my paradigm works. MFR treats the body as a whole, not a reduction of parts.

Barrett, I’m not sure what you are referring to when you say that MFR people were “crushed” in the early 90’s. If you mean the PT Bulletin’s attempt to discredit John in the early 90’s, I might remind you that during that time period, John was asked, by the APTA, to lecture on MFR, sponsored by the APTA research foundation to generate money for Physical Therapy research. And that, in the 80’s, he was appointed to the council of Advisors to the American Back Society and lectures annually for them. I was one of the sheep you often refer to, who almost believed what the Bulletin was trying to accomplish. But, unlike many involved, I chose to think for myself and see what John had to offer. Like the many thousands of other therapists who were curious enough to investigate further. I’ve read some of the words of Jon Childs, and how he is bashing you for lack of research. I hope that this episode brings you the success that it brought to John back in the early 90’s. I know that you do good work. Let others do good work as well without so much judgment and negativity.

The outcome I try to achieve with MFR is not unlike any others in our field. My outcomes are very good. I’m sure yours are as well. Barrett, I’m intrigued by your work and was sorry to be unable to attend your class in Rochester recently. There is enough room for all of us here. Enjoy the ride.

Walt

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Old 02-01-2006, 06:33 AM   #2
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Walt

Thanks for your post here. I will leave replies at this stage to others, as I am quite unfamiliar with MFR and need to do some homework.


PTupdate:

Welcome to SS. Pleased to see you here, and look forward to your posts.

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Old 02-01-2006, 12:56 PM   #3
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Default MFR deconstructed

Hi Walt,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Something in me tells me that this conversation is a long time coming, long overdue. I commend you for hangng in and sharing your thoughts. I'm sure it will be a very interesting conversation.

I took the liberty of moving your post to here, as I thought it contained a lot of content, too much to let it stay in the arrival lounge, which is for arrival chit chat. If you would prefer a different name, let me know, I'll change the name of the thread. I chose "deconstruction" because I expect we will all want to get to the bottom of the concepts.
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Old 02-01-2006, 01:24 PM   #4
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Walt,

You say, “…anything can happen in the treatment room.” Are you sure about that? How about outside the treatment room? This willingness to accept anything is a classic postmodern stance and reveals an ignorance of physical law that places much of Barnes’ theory outside the realm of physical possibility. You guys constantly assign qualities to the connective tissue it simply doesn’t possess (demonstrated in your hemipelvic rotation example) and thus add to your theoretical problems the biologic implausibility that will always plague your community of believers. Next thing you know you’ll be telling us that the fascia can move us.

Calling your work just another paradigm doesn’t make it acceptable. Offer us some rational explanation that you can defend and then we’ll talk, but don’t expect us to be impressed with your claims of success.

You say, “…finding a connection with an earlier event in their lives, either physical or emotional, is one of the beautiful things about this work.” And, “Is it illegal or unethical for a patient to discover things about themselves?” I don’t assume you are purposely misinterpreting what I’ve written so I can’t explain how you came to that conclusion. Obviously you’ve not read “The Memory War” as I suggested. There you’ll find that encouraging a patient to “remember” things that had seemingly been inaccessible to them before their contact with the therapist led to the worst sort of family tragedy several thousand times. This wasn’t determined to be unethical on the patient’s part as you amazingly suggest is implied, but it was established as unethical on the part of the therapist and for many there were dire legal consequences. What I’ve just said is well documented and well known in the psychological and other mental health communities. How is it that you are unaware of this? Do you think you are immune from the same problems?

Your claim that Barnes doesn’t teach this is something I must reject. Your friend Carol Davis posted a note to the MFR listserve a while back claiming that she often feels “the hands of a dead relative (of the patient’s) on her shoulders” while performing MFR. Is this something else Barnes doesn’t teach or does it fall into the category of “anything can happen”?

I’ve much more to say of course. Tell you what-tomorrow I go to Idaho and then on to Washington. I will be glad to specifically report what I might learn from my students about what they’ve been taught at your courses. There’s always a few around and I've heard the same story many, many times. We’ll see what they heard Barnes claim and what their experience with his courses has been.
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Old 02-01-2006, 01:37 PM   #5
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Quote:
I understand that many readers may have a negative opinion of MFR, but what has fostered this? Is it the lack of research?
For me, it is the lack of a biologically plausible theory and the spreading of the implausible theory for monetary gain as well as the recent description by a participant of MFR work (done in Sedona, by those that are representative of MFR).

I no longer have access to that blog to post here. That person's description seems to stand apart from some of the contentions in your post. Perhaps she was lying, I can't know. I've heard anecdotal evidence by those who have taken MFR courses that the work described in the blog is a logical extension of what is taught in MFR courses although many MFR practitioners don't actually do what was described (in the blog). Walt, you could shed some light on whether her description was accurate or not assuming you've read the blog. Is her experience what someone could expect from an MFR retreat?
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Old 02-01-2006, 01:41 PM   #6
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Hi Walt,
OK, Barrett has laid out a few of his concerns, and Jon.
I have two (for now), that I will try to explain as clearly as I can.

1. By "interior work," I wasn't referring so much to the psychic side as I was to the actual internal pelvic work conducted by the man himself with two to four aids present, coupled with plenty of "emotional release." This took place at his "center," was described by an adventuresome blogger, and brought to the bullypit's attention by Barrett. Do you support this, in light of all that is known about therapeutic transference and countertransference?

2. The concept itself: that it is possible to get at anything, really, myofascia or what have you, to "release" it, through skin/brain defences. (To be ruthlessly honest here, it isn't just MFR I have a problem with: As a neuronut I think that all mobilipulation concepts took off with "premature cognitive committments" and have continued to forge forth mistakenly ever since.) But back to MFR, you say that you do feel the nervous system is involved. Do you teach that in your classes or do you teach that idea about hands-on being able to unravel fascia as if it were an ill-fitting, lop-sided sweater?

You mentioned that research has been done; could you bring us some links?

PS: I'll see if I can find the woman's blog link. Barrett can you remember the name of the thread? It was in crosscountry I think.
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Old 02-01-2006, 01:42 PM   #7
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Here's the blog Jon refers to:

http://mfrjourney.blogspot.com/
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Old 02-01-2006, 01:58 PM   #8
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We have found that creating safety and mutual respect allow the individual to express themselves in their own way. We never force, we never lead.
Hi there Walt,

There are many types of manual therapy that suggest the therapist approach the patient in the way you have descibed; Biodynamic osteopathy, Balanced Ligamentous Tension Technique, Craniosacral Technique, Functional Technique, Simple Contact. I wonder why it is that only MFR causes the patient to have emotional outbusts and explicit traumatic memories.

Luke

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Old 02-01-2006, 04:46 PM   #9
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Default MFR

Diane,

Thanks for repositioning my post, though I’d prefer something other than “deconstructed”! Barrett, check out this latest research, if you think the fascia is so passive, again, right here on PubMed:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum

I’m assuming those present have not taken an Upledger class, or at least an advanced one (SomoatoEmotional Release?), in addition to a Barnes class. John does not hold the mortgage on allowing patients to feel safe enough to release fully. As for doing internal work, I can only speak for myself. I New York State, our PT practice act allows internal treatment when indicated and this has proved invaluable for many of my clients with longstanding pain syndromes. I remember a thread on RehabEdge where this was brought up, I believe in negative references to John’s woman’s health seminar. When properly trained, the therapist can release a wide variety of problems, which are simply inaccessible from the external. There seems to be a bit of professional jealousy over John’s success which has guided many of these posts in the past, at least from how I interpret them. Yes, John has been wildly successful, with two clinics and after having taught over 50,000 therapists his work. But students keep coming back and patients willingly come to his clinics because MFR works. (Yes, Diane, a lot of this has been a long time coming!). As to other therapists being in the room during the internal work, every patient has the right to request a private session, as many of my patients who went for work at one of john’s clinics have requested.

As to your second question, Diane, I’m not sure what you are asking. Yes, I feel that MFR allows you to get at the entire body, including the nervous system. If, for example, freeing an ulnar nerve that has been trapped under layers of muscular and fascial restriction via one simple cross handed technique is accessing the nervous system, I believe so.

Barrett, if we are comparing stories about what happens in classes, and relying so heavily on another person’s experience rather than our own, I must relate a story told by a friend who attended one of your one day seminars. When she was “found out” to have taken some MFR classes and as you were demonstrating a technique on stage, you angrily (her words, not mine) asked her if she sees any emotions coming from this student. It is doubtful whether anyone would feel safe enough to let such things out with this kind of judgment hovering over them. As to “us guys” assigning properties to the connective tissue that it simple does not possess, here are a few references from peer reviewed journals that you may have missed along the way:
-Fascial Plasticity- A new neurobiological explanation, Robert Schleip, J of Bodywork and movement therapies, Vol 7 No 1, Vol 7 No 2, 2003
-Myofascial release of carpal tunnel syndrome. Sucher BM, J Am Osteopath Assoc 1993 Jan:93(1):92-4, 100-1
-Vaginal surface EMG analysis in women with interstitial cystitis and vulvodynia treated with Myofascial release, Anderson, RU et al http://www.ichelp.com/research/2000A...Abstracts.html
-The basic science of Myofascial release, Barnes, MF J of Bodywork and Movement Therapies (1997) 1(4), 231-238.
-Myofascial Release therapy for category 3 chronic prostatitis, RU Anderson, MD, et al

There are more, but these are all I have at hand this morning. As for trying to denigrate another PT, Carol Davis is a very talented therapist as well as an established PT educator and researcher. What you picked up while lurking on the MFR chat line from her is not, nor is any, designed to show proof of anything. That is one limitation of the MFR chat line format, you are listening in on peoples personal experiences. So picking a post from quite a while ago in order to prove some obscure point seems irrelevant. By the way, doesn’t our APTA Code of Ethic (principle 11) say, “A physical therapist shall respect the rights, knowledge, and skills of colleagues and other health care professionals”? Seems like you are in violation with the constant inflammatory barrage that you heap on John as well as the rest of us in the MFR community.

I have not read “Memory Wars”, as you suggested. But I’ve seen countless times where you send posters to you website to read your articles as if they were proof of something. As I’ve already stated, we all find information and research that we think bolsters our claims. You, I believe, are guilty of the same offense. As I stated, John encourages nothing to be pulled out of the subconscious. I, by chance, someone on your table came up with a memory, what would you do? If I follow your line of reasoning, you just committed a heinous act, as the blame cannot be place on the patient. To be in the room with someone when they remember something, when no effort was placed on the therapist’s part to elicit this memory can be unavoidable. Patients are always encouraged to seek proper mental health counseling as a part of our MFR training. This reminds me of an event that happened when I was sharing a new office space with a massage therapist. She was concerned that there may be too much noise coming from my treatment room and it would upset her clients. If a client began to express emotions, she wanted me to stuff a pillow over their mouths. I asked her what she would do if they began such an event. She responded that she would ask them to do so at home, not in the treatment room. Barrett, can’t you acknowledge that there is an emotional aspect to our pain? No injury, no matter how simple, lacks emotional quality. Take a class from John; this is not as scary or unethical as you may believe.

As you canvas you audience over the next few days, searching for MFR proof, reflect on your demeanor to see whether you foster the totality of your client’s best interests, or whether your biases are holding you and them back.
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Old 02-01-2006, 05:03 PM   #10
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Hello Walt,
Thanks for your reply, and providing some links. I'm aware of Robert Schleip's heroic efforts to get to the bottom of things, have him bookmarked even.
In the interests of containing this conversation so as to not have you feeling barraged overmuch, and have you not jump on Barrett directly for having demonstrated a bit of a curmudgeonly attitude, perhaps, in the past, let's get our queries and concerns answered one at a time.

I will go first, because I am here. Let's pick this one, to start:
Quote:
As to your second question, Diane, I’m not sure what you are asking. Yes, I feel that MFR allows you to get at the entire body, including the nervous system. If, for example, freeing an ulnar nerve that has been trapped under layers of muscular and fascial restriction via one simple cross handed technique is accessing the nervous system, I believe so.
My simple question on somasimple: How?.. I.e., by what mechanism?

(On a different topic, what word would you suggest I put up in the thread title instead of "deconstructed"? Another small thing, your second link doesn't work, any chance you could fix it? Thanks.)
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Old 02-01-2006, 06:01 PM   #11
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Diane,
Here is the corrected link, will respond further when time permits.

http://www.ichelp.com/research/2000A...Abstracts.html

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Old 02-01-2006, 06:08 PM   #12
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Thanks Walt.
Here is the abstract that is pertinant to this discussion:
Quote:
20. Vaginal Surface Electromyography Analysis In Women With Interstitial Cystitis And Vulvodynia treated With Myofascial Release
R.U. Anderson, D. Wise, M. Meadows. Stanford, CA
Women who suffer from IC and vulvodynia often have pelvic pain from myofascial trigger points and pelvic floor dysfunction. Physical therapists are able to perform myofascial release and monitor progress with surface vaginal electromyography (EMG) sensors.
At the Stanford Urology Pelvic Pain Clinic, women with pelvic pain and painful internal trigger points were studied. They had an exam along with a visual analog pain score (VAS), pain questionnaire and a urinary score. These patients were then treated with weekly myofascial release massage, trigger point compression and biofeedback for two months. Of the 43 women (ages 23-85) evaluated and treated in this study, 49 percent had interstitial cystitis and 51 percent had vulvodynia.

The study concluded that internal myofascial release therapy can be a complimentary physical therapy treatment for women with chronic pelvic pain syndrome. The EMG sensors were a useful tool in measuring the improvement of the pelvic floor dysfunction.
Again, the point is, by what mechanism?
(Also, I see a mention here of "trigger points", another topic worth some perusal/potential deconstruction or at least decompression of meaning.)
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Old 02-01-2006, 06:47 PM   #13
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Hi All,

Quote:
These patients were then treated with weekly myofascial release massage, trigger point compression and biofeedback for two months.
Diane, I agree with you, all the three "treatments" act on an unique site: Brain.
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Old 02-01-2006, 07:36 PM   #14
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Walt,

Let’s begin with this: You’d probably be better off not telling me how to behave. I’m nice enough I suppose, but I’m not especially charming. Charming is for con men. Perhaps you didn’t know this. And as far as that remark about jealousy goes, you might assume that I wouldn’t want what you call Barnes’ “success.” After all, I can still get my courses approved for CEUs for PTs in every state in the union. I know MFR courses struggle with this increasingly. Why do you suppose that is?

This thing about recovered memories seems to have you confused. It isn’t the patient’s statement that they remember something that is the problem, it’s what the therapist does with that information. When they treat it as if it is the authentic origin of the patient’s problem and go on to encourage its fuller expression (this includes profound emotive responses) they are at best beyond the depth of their knowledge and training and at worst acting in a fashion proven unethical over a decade ago. I hope that clears up what I’ve said many times in many essays and posts though I have my doubts. You ask if I “can’t acknowledge that there is an emotional aspect to our pain.” When and where did I ever say there wasn’t? Such a question simply implies that I am something other than human. I recite poetry to my patients for cryin’ out loud.

If Carol Davis chooses to say publicly in 2003 that she is evidently asking her patients (“often,” by the way) about their dead relatives during the course of care and that this "boosts the energy," I must presume that this is a common practice in her office. I make no apologies for objecting to this sort of thing being done and billed for as physical therapy. I’m suppose to respect that to such a degree that I remain silent about it?

Can’t do it.
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Old 02-01-2006, 08:04 PM   #15
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Walt states:

Quote:
Had any of the people who commented on this bothered to attend one of John’s seminars, they would have heard him say that he teaches every therapist never to counsel, and never to tell anybody what to think, feel or do, never try to make anybody express emotions, or to do anything that does not feel natural to them. We have found that creating safety and mutual respect allow the individual to express themselves in their own way. We never force, we never lead.
Dottie, in her blog about her MFR experience in Sedona, reports:

Quote:
Then it was time for my session. Tina was my therapist. As I type this, I don’t remember a lot about this session except that at one point Tina had me trapped face-down on the table. Now Tina has a tiny body, but she has a HUGE essence and when she is on top of me holding me down, it feels like I have a brick house on top of me. And I know that she was holding onto the other side of the table adding even more weight on me. I seem to have a lot of “fight” in me so I assume I was fighting or needing to fight. I struggled and struggled to get her off of me. Of course, she was encouraging me to “get away.” I was crying and getting angrier and angrier, and finally got her off of me and swung my feet off the table and onto the floor. I turned and shoved her away and then turned back to the table and shoved it hard across the room and onto its side. I desperately wanted to get away. But there wasn’t anywhere to go. The room was small and this one didn’t have a deck attached. I ran to the corner of the room and shoved my face into the corner. When Tina told me that I was safe and had gotten away, I cried “Then why am I hiding in this f**king corner?” She told me to come out of the corner – to find my power – and that I could stop hiding.
One of these things is not like the other.
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Old 02-01-2006, 08:18 PM   #16
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Hello,
Just a note to explain that I've moved the conversation into the general discussion forum, territory that may be considered a wee bit more neutral, perhaps... apologies for any sense of dislocation that may be experienced by any participants. Please continue.
(Any other changes you'd like to see to the thread title Walt?)
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Old 02-01-2006, 08:24 PM   #17
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Hi Walt,

As someone who has had no contact with MFR other than secondhand reports, I am curious about:

jon's post, above: How can you explain this anomaly at Sedona?

After googling MFR I came across:

Quote:
.."specific manual techniques of holding the tissue for 90-120 seconds allowing for a mechanical and biochemical reaction to begin. Full release of the restriction may take 5 minutes or longer."
(from the austinbodyworks site)
This sounds like a form of neuromodulation, but why the emphasis on the fascia? What about the CNS?

A page referring to Dr Melissa Nelson in the body-dynamics site describes unwinding workshops, love workshops, osseous integration...and so on.
What are you unwinding? Where does a love workshop fit in? How do you integrate bones?

How does this fit with the ethics / professionalism of physical therapy as I understand it is practised in the USA?

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Old 03-01-2006, 12:41 AM   #18
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Hi there Walt,

I understand that Upledger is becoming quite well known for his use of Dolphin Energy during seminars. Does he teach that in the Advanced SomatoEmotional Release classes?

Quote:
As to “us guys” assigning properties to the connective tissue that it simple does not possess, here are a few references from peer reviewed journals that you may have missed along the way:
None of those references offer the slightest bit of evidence that the fascia behaves in the way suggested. The 3 outcome studies appear very low in internal validity, and one of them was using direct, Rolphing-type MF treatment.

The Schleip reference is relevant to the comment above, however, it clearly states that this is a hypothesis. Can a few smooth muscle cells pull the entire hemipelvis into anterior rotation, for example?: that will be the question to answer. From Barnes book, "Recent evidence and my experience have demonstrated that embedded in our structure, particularly the fascial system, lie memories of past events or trauma." Can you please post this evidence? - I'd like to read it.

Cheers,
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Old 03-01-2006, 05:33 AM   #19
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Default So many questions...why don't you just take the seminar?

I'll try to respond to questions in the reverse order that they came. I'm not a scientist, nor do I have a background in research, as many of you seem to have, and I respect this fully. Not wanting to quite stoop to a certain level, I must ask you who are taking shots at me and MFR to expect the same.

Luke,

"I understand that Upledger is becoming quite well known for his use of Dolphin Energy during seminars. Does he teach that in the Advanced SomatoEmotional Release classes?"
I don't know if he does, I've never taken this level with him. Is that how you can dismiss a professional, by tagging this on? Upledger's work has a huge amount of research behind it, check it out. As for Schlelp's work stating that fascial plasticity is only a hypothesis, I'm not sure whether you actually read the two papers he wrote on this. If I'm not mistaken, a hypothesis is stated at the beginning of any work, but Schlelp goes on to explain that fascia is indeed capable of the changes that we in MFR claim. As to "a few smooth muscle cells pull the entire hemipelvis into anterior rotation", no, I doubt that a few muscle cells could do this, but the enormous strength of fascia can.
Reference - Katake, K. the strength for tension and bursting of human fascae, J. Kyoto Pref. Med. Univ., 69: 484-488, 1961. old research, but it shows that fascia has an average tensile strength of 1980 lbs per su. inch. This could certainly hold a right hemipelvis in anterior rotation. And, Schlelp's articles, as well as the Mark Barnes journal reference mentioned previously, show that fascia can be altered through the proper application of forces. As for the Barnes quote from his book, I do not have that reference, but I will try to obtain it.

Nari,
As to Dr Nelson, I do not know her work so I cannot comment on her love workshops. This is not one of John's classes either. Osseous integration, as taught through John Barnes MFR, is applying MFR principles to the osseous structures. In the example of the right forward pelvis, the ilia would be taken to their barriers in the desired direction and held there through subsequent releases, to take the fascial restriction out of the system, returning the pelvis to a more neutral alignment. Superficial fascia would be addressed as well as deeper layers, including those within the sacroiliac region. What is being unwinded, or unwound? Not sure from Dr. Nelson's perspective, but in MFR Unwinding can be something as simple as following the three dimensional nature of the fascia through its course, barrier uopn barrie,, which is often not the original linear direction that was begun.

Jon,
I wasn't in the treatment room, but it sounds like a common experience of tissue memory. The therapist never forces the barrier, they just maintain sustained gentle pressures at the barrier unless the patient asks you to stop which is always their option.

To the patient when tissue memory arises, it can feel like enormous pressure, etc, since it is reproducing a past experience. As the sensation of the past subsides, the tissue releases, prior pain or symptoms lessens, and range of motion increases. No harm is done and the patient improves even though years of traditional therapy have not helped.

However, I dont think it is prudent to continue to discuss this patient's blog.

Barrett, have you asked this woman for her permission to post her blog on all the many sites that you have? It may be legal to do so, but it may be a serious ethical violation without her persmission. It is one thing for one to visit her blog. Her purpose was to help other patients by sharing her experience.

But for you to put this out to the world or other sites and then distort it as you have is quite another.

Your distortion is immense. You never mention that she was suffering with pain for years, slowly becoming more and more disabled to the point where she had to use a scooter to get around the food store. You then failed to mention that after her sessions she was relatively pain free, could walk again and was profusely grateful to all the MFR therapists that had helped her. She didnt ask what neural theory we used. She asked for help and she got it.

Barrett,
There seems to be a bit of confusion here when you stated that MFR is having increasing difficulty getting CEU credits around the country. Are you referring to John's MFR classes specifically? If so, you are mstaken, as John has never been denied CEU credits and his classes continue to draw large numbers no matter what state he is in and the desire for more has brought on new seminars. I applaud your success, in therapy as well as in your seminars, but please speak truthfully when speaking about MFR.

First you stated: "You’d probably be better off not telling me how to behave", then later: "This thing about recovered memories seems to have you confused" and "obviously you’ve not read “The Memory War” as I suggested." Lets make a deal: I'll not tell you how to behave, if you stop with the condescending attitude toward me.

"When they treat it as if it is the authentic origin of the patient’s problem and go on to encourage its fuller expression (this includes profound emotive responses) they are at best beyond the depth of their knowledge and training and at worst acting in a fashion proven unethical over a decade ago."
Barrett, you are making a huge and incorrect assumption that we treat anything that the patient says, in terms of a past memory, as authentic in origin. It is only authentic in that the patient spoke it at that moment, no more. What their impressions are as to the authenticiy of it beyond the moment is for them to determine. If, believing that it was something from the past and helps them to heal, they have that right. We, as John Barnes MFR trained therapists, make no determination to any effect as you have so frequently and incorrectly stated.

I must ask you, how can you judge so much of a work and of a person without actually attending one of his seminars? Isn't the scientific mind one that explores all avenues before coming to a conclusion? I know for a fact that John Barnes attended one of your seminars many years back, in order to see what you and your work is all about. In order to spread the word against his work the way you have for years, don't you think you owe it to your students and your loyal followers to at least see what it is that you have benn criticizing for all these years? In your first post to me on 12/29, you stated: "I don't think it's appropriate to chose one or two aspects of your practice for discussion and refuse to discuss others". Well? Stop making assumptions on something you seem to know very little about.

By saying that Carol Davis made statements publically in 2003, I assume you are referring to the MFR chat line which you got kicked off of for making outrageous statements under a false name? You held onto this quote of her's for this long?

Bernard,
Of course the brain has a function in all of this. It interprests the person's pre-existing condition and alters its view when changes are made. but there would have been nothing new to interpret, in this study or any patient expample that I know of, if changes were not made to the physical body, via MFR or any other modality.


Diane,
In response to your questions about the neural componant of this work, think of a nerve (or muscle, blood vessel, organ, etc.) as a garden hose. If you step on the hose the water is slowed or shut down. MFR takes the pressure off of the hose to allow everything to return to its normal flow.

I am enjoying your questions, especially when the asker is open to the answers.
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Old 03-01-2006, 06:01 AM   #20
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Quote:
Bernard,
Of course the brain has a function in all of this. It interprests the person's pre-existing condition and alters its view when changes are made.
So... Walt, are you saying that you make the changes from the outside of someone else's body, and then that person's brain decides to change its view or its interpretation of that body?

Quote:
but there would have been nothing new to interpret, in this study or any patient expample that I know of, if changes were not made to the physical body, via MFR or any other modality.
So... Walt, are you saying that you make the changes from the outside of someone else's body, and then that person's brain decides to change its view or its interpretation of that body? Retroactively?

Quote:
Diane,
In response to your questions about the neural componant of this work, think of a nerve (or muscle, blood vessel, organ, etc.) as a garden hose. If you step on the hose the water is slowed or shut down. MFR takes the pressure off of the hose to allow everything to return to its normal flow.
How does MFR take the "pressure off the hose"? What is the mechanism? Are your hands able to somehow go through all those slippery layers and directly unload things that are subcutaneous without breaking skin?

One last time: So... Walt, are you saying that you make the changes from the outside of someone else's body, and then that person's brain decides to change its view or its interpretation of that body? Retroactively? After the "fascia" is "adjusted"?
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Old 03-01-2006, 06:03 AM   #21
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Walt, Dr Nelson's site includes John Barnes' name, so he and his work is implicated in her work, albeit through a different interpretation.

OK, I still do not know what is releasing from what, exactly, but maybe that will becomes clearer as time goes on.

Can you explain the 'barrier'? and what causes barriers and multiple barriers?
If it exists, then there must be a physiological reason for it to do so. Are we talking internal / external causes? or origins?

You're going to have to answer quite a few questions, I think...

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Old 03-01-2006, 06:36 AM   #22
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Hi All,

Ian Stevens sent me this (was unable to post because a browser problem = safari)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Stevens
Bernard I could not send this for some reason (strange safari browser)


http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/...ull/nn896.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insular_cortex

I was thinking of the peripheral explanations for therapies and as a
Physical therapist I should really 'believe' that this is the main
explanation for the effect of the interventions .
If there is no sensible explanation for the fact that many interventions
cause change in either perception or sensation and in some cases movement
patterns the best way to explain this is to believe in something. This
something is a theory . I believe most of the theories in manual therapy are
wrong --heretical i know! .....However as Melzack suggests theories drive
beliefs and ultimately what we do and how we act towards each other.
The above articles are based on scientific methodology but point towards the
complexity of the interaction between body and brain.
As things in the western biomedical paradigm are so dualistic it is my
opinion that in order to offer treatments that differ from the dominant
biomechanically driven solutions people make things up to suit notions that
are plausible at the time- or at least sound like they are. This is the
basis of all the tissue based solutions . There's an A-Z of them ?
Currently we have 'new neuroscience' (such as the papers above) which in my
opinion seem to offer rational approaches and make sense of so much that
we try to offer .
This in my humble opinion is the golden age . Instead of drifting into turf
wars we could be embracing this new found knowledge in an attempt to bring
people together !This sounds a bit religious but all of the issues that are
amenable to our intervention are open to 'procebo' .... I do believe touch
is a good thing !
''I would think that the whole point of having a mamalian brain is to be
able to adapt and to be able to learn, and that means being highly sensitive
to signals and information from the context . In this sense , part of the
reason for placebo's negative image, for the ways in which biomedicine
dismisses the physcian -patient relationship and power of narrative ,is that
most people are bad neurobiologists and think if i can't explain the
phenomenon by a rigid , lock and key algorithm ,then its nothing but
mystical hokum''(Placebo Effect an interdisciplinary exploration Anne
Harrington -ed p235)
I think we would be better off discussing somatic markers than fascial
releases and also look at factors that promote fascial tightness or more
likely 'locked in' cns motor patterns . The fact that many of these issues
respond to simply sitting still and either meditating or visualisation may
provide some clues as the dominant mechanism ?

Confession -- I have no vested interest whatsoever in any technique or
approach . I don't run a successful practice ,sell books or market anything!
I am interested in sharing ideas and think that the internet , open
discussions a bit of movement , music, wine and getting out in the fresh
air usually sorts most things out in the long term !

Happy New Year to you !
ian
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Old 03-01-2006, 06:40 AM   #23
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Good links Ian, and great post.
Happy NY to you too!
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Old 03-01-2006, 07:18 AM   #24
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Deja Vu. However, this discussion motivated me to hunt around a little for the "deep model" of MFR, if it exists. I'm not finding much real science for it, but there are some interesting theories, namely the writing by Robert Schleip. I found an additional abstract that adds a little evidence, but PubMed didn't offer me much.

Med Hypotheses. 2006;66(1):66-71. Epub 2005 Oct 4. Related Articles, Links


Passive muscle stiffness may be influenced by active contractility of intramuscular connective tissue.

Schleip R, Naylor IL, Ursu D, Melzer W, Zorn A, Wilke HJ, Lehmann-Horn F, Klingler W.

Department of Applied Physiology, Ulm University, Albert-Einstein-Allee 11, 89069 Ulm, Germany.

The article introduces the hypothesis that intramuscular connective tissue, in particular the fascial layer known as the perimysium, may be capable of active contraction and consequently influence passive muscle stiffness, especially in tonic muscles. Passive muscle stiffness is also referred to as passive elasticity, passive muscular compliance, passive extensibility, resting tension, or passive muscle tone. Evidence for the hypothesis is based on five indications: (1) tonic muscles contain more perimysium and are therefore stiffer than phasic muscles; (2) the specific collagen arrangement of the perimysium is designed to fit a load-bearing function; (3) morphological considerations as well as histological observations in our laboratory suggest that the perimysium is characterized by a high density of myofibroblasts, a class of fibroblasts with smooth muscle-like contractile kinetics; (4) in vitro contraction tests with fascia have demonstrated that fascia, due to the presence of myofibroblasts, is able to actively contract, and that the resulting contraction forces may be strong enough to influence musculoskeletal dynamics; (5) the pronounced increase of the perimysium in muscle immobilization and in the surgical treatment of distraction osteogenesis indicates that perimysial stiffness adapts to mechanical stimulation and hence influences passive muscle stiffness. In conclusion, the perimysium seems capable of response to mechanostimulation with a myofibroblast facilitated active tissue contraction, thereby adapting passive muscle stiffness to increased tensional demands, especially in tonic musculature. If verified, this new concept may lead to novel pharmaceutical or mechanical approaches to complement existing treatments of pathologies which are accompanied by an increase or decrease of passive muscle stiffness (e.g., muscle fibroses such as torticollis, peri-partum pelvic pain due to pelvic instability, and many others). Methods for testing this new concept are suggested, including histological examinations and specific in vitro contraction tests.

PMID: 16209907 [PubMed - in process]

Walt thank you for the discussion, if you have more answers or information I'd love to see it.

Barrett, you continue to make my PT school education irrelevant. Thanks, I think.
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Old 03-01-2006, 07:45 AM   #25
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Hi Pete and Welcome,

This paper was already cited and the full text is available =>
http://www.somasimple.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1157
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Old 03-01-2006, 08:59 AM   #26
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Hi Walt,

Having a master's in osteopathic manual medicine, I am quite well acquainted with the research for and against all craniosacral concepts. There is not much to be impressed with in Upledger's work, or much of the CS/OCF theory. You may want to read the file attached.

I have read both of the Schleip articles mentioned here very closely. Can I suggest you do the same, but paying particular attention to all of the "may"s and "if"s in both, as well as clear recommendations by Schleip that his hypothesis needs to be tested before conclusions can be drawn. One possible hurdle is that much of this research has been done on animal tissue. Many of the readers here will be aware of the story of Strain/Counterstrain Technique, which was born from conclusions about the human gamma efferent system based on research of cat muscle that turned out to be almost totally invalid. (For some strange reason S/CS theory is still taught at university)

I found this statement by Schleip interesting -
Quote:
We suggest that treatment with super-slow manual deep tissue techniques..may be helpful in this and similar conditions. Such techniques are commonly practiced by osteopaths and by practitioners of the Rolfing method of deep tissue manipulation
Nothing about emotional or traumatic memory expression there.

I don't think anyone here doubts the tensile strength of connective tissue.

I look forward to reading evidence of the memory and trauma storage capabilities of fascia.

Thanks,
Luke
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Old 03-01-2006, 02:11 PM   #27
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From the blog:

Quote:
If you have ever considered going for an intensive, but didn’t want to venture into those waters without more information, join me on my journey. I may not share everything, but I will share everything that I am comfortable sharing.
Regardless that Dottie feels comfortable about what she wrote, enough to post it on the World Wide Web, this is a critical discussion about PT, not Dottie. I've seen plenty of people like Dottie (similar presentation) and have obtained similar results without subjecting them to personally embarrassing situations or pinning them to a plinth table. Is pinning someone to a plinth table your version of gentle sustained pressure? What part of that is consistent with "We do not force"?

In my literature searches on memory, fascia doesn't seem to be a big player. Like others (and I'm sure neurologists would be quite keen also) I'm quite interested to hear more about this or do I have to pay to go to a course to hear about it because it is proprietary information?
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Old 03-01-2006, 03:59 PM   #28
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Walt, you might enjoy reading this thread, or perhaps not..
In either case I want to direct your attention to this point, from the twelfth post down, discussing a type of thinking the author of HareBrain TortoiseMind calls "D-mode" thinking:

"13. D-mode works well when tackling problems which can be treated as an assemblage of nameable parts.

Quote:
It is in the nature of language to segment and analyse. The world seen through language is one that is perforated, capable of being gently pulled apart into concepts that seem...self-evidently 'real' or 'natural', and which can be analysed in terms of the relationships between these concepts. Much of traditional science works so well precisely because the world of which it treats is this kind of world. But when the mid turns its attention to situations that are ecological or 'systemic', too intricate to be decomposed in this way without serious misrepresentation, the limitations of d-mode's linguistic, analytical approach are quickly reached. Any situation that is organic rather than mechanical is likely to be of this sort. The new 'sciences' of chaos and complexity are in part a response to the realisation that d-mode is in principle unequal to the task of explaining systems as complicated as the weather, or the behaviour of animals in the natural world. Along with the rise of these new sciences must come a re-evaluation of the slower ways of knowing; of intuition as an essential complement to reason.
... or body systems, particularly some favored anatomical system that is really at too deep a level to be got at directly. Mental shortcuts get taken, and mental paths get worn deeper. Meanwhile the jungle gets denser off-path and never explored.

Really, what we are dealing with here in this conversation is not good guy/ bad guy stuff. We are dealing with memes (thought viruses), and the ability they have to take advantage of and set up housekeeping in minds that are prone to "premature cognitive committments" (which may start out as a path, but eventually become a superhighway). Memes then replicate, often out of control, infecting all who come near them. I think the general opinion of John Barnes in this group is that he is a bit of a typhoid Mary that way. He seems not to suffer from his own meme-fection but he passes it on and on through his followers.

What you have landed in, is a board with a bunch of eclectic people who have at least one thing in common, the desire to decrease mental camouflage and get at the real underlying scientific/biological/physical models underlying everything. Please forgive us, we get a bit impatient perhaps with D-mode thinking and premature cognitive committments. We are a deeper root system than that. A mind is like a forest. It's best if you know your way around inside your own.

The PT profession (any hands-on profession for that matter) may not think it needs people like us, may not want to entertain the sorts of questions we bring to bear on matters, may find our mentations tedious at best or irrelevant at worst.. however, like the big trees with no root systems, in some sort of strong wind, PT could blow right down and get sawed up for logs. If you want to explore, really explore what it is you do and better reasons than the ones you've so far offered up as explanations for why what you do seems to be effective, then stick around. If you are playing follow the leader, and are operating from a cult sensibility, then you really don't want to be here; we'll be fair but you'll begin to feel awfully set upon, and will experience cognitive dissonance (a good thing by the way.. it helps you find your own "undermind" where you can work out your own reasoning based on more reasonable input.) Learning.(links to learning originally provided by Jon the LinkMaster.)
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Old 03-01-2006, 05:48 PM   #29
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Diane,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. There seems to be two distinct directions that this interchange has taken. One, from you and many others, is an inquiry into the workings of Myofascial Release, seemingly made from a neutral and inquisitve base. Others have chosen to insert their biases. One of the primary requsts from readers centers around a scientific rationale for Myofascial Release that explains every and all aspect of the work, with an assumption that if it is not "provable", then it should be discarded. Proving that emotions lie stored in the body, not the brain, mis a slippery slope of emerging awareness and research, based on years of observation by many sources. I would direct you to James Oschman's book, "Energy Medicine in Therapeutics and Human Performance" for a much more thoughtful and substantiated treatise on these issues. No, I am not operating out of a cult mentality, no more than followers of anyone on this site is. I have seen wonderful things happen to patients over the years, patients who have not been helped by physical therapy, medication, and surgeries, as I'm sure you have as well via your work. If you are sharp enough, you can find an explanation within your literature to explain these results, but I feel that you will agree that all most of us in this esoteric therapy community rely on the results we achieve as important.

As to me sticking around and being up to the challenge of intellectual discourse, count me in. But, and here is the big but, must not we hold everyone to the same challenge. Barrett initially stated that he had been waiting for years to engage an MFR therapist in discussion and challenged me to hold open all parts of the MFR that I practice open to discussion. So I must turn the tables. Whel Barrett cites voluminous readings and references for "Simple Contact", I can find NO literature that supports, or even mentions Simple Contact> Shouldn't this be given equal scrutiny? I'm not trying to deflect any uncertainties about the foundations of what I practice, but, WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE? By the way, in the thread you directed me toward (yes, I did read it), further up the page you quote:

Claxton continues:

Quote:
Gendlin called this hazy shadow which they were attending to and allowing slowly to come to fruition, a felt sense, and it was quite different both from a string of thoughts and from the experience of a particular emotion or feeling. It seemed to be the inner ground out of which thoughts, images and feelings would emerge if they were given time and unpremeditated attention.

How about this? Does this not sound like ideomotor movement?

Simple contact must be good stuff, if that is what you are referring to. This sounds like the exact description of the unwinding state in Myofascial Release! Would this state, that you quoted and describe, be able to be explained by hard research? Doubtful. We both operate from an ill-defined space, and this is where growth occurs. Reasearch emerges from original thought. It is within this mindset that MFR can operate. Surely, it can simply be physical application of techniques, much like any other type of work. But when you connect with the person on the table, in the way you reference, that is when the beauty of our work, yours and mine, come through. Let us both continue the work that we do, accept when there is not an acceptable explanation for it, and keep helping people.

I'm not shutting off any and all questions, not in the least. But, let us set the same standards for all on this site.
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Old 03-01-2006, 06:11 PM   #30
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Walt,

Would you like some documentation regarding the denial of CEUs for PTs?

You say, “Your distortion is immense.” How so? The sum total of what I’ve done is to publish the link a total of two times. Anybody who wants to read it is free to do so and Dottie states she wants this. There they will find exactly what anybody else finds and they are free to interpret it as we all are. I see no distortion of any sort.

I never posted anything on the MFR Chat. Occasionally a member would find something I’d written elsewhere and copy it to the list. Other members would then vilify me and wonder aloud who had done what to me in order to turn me into such an awful person. This went on for four years. I have never, never used a false name on the Internet and my personal rule is to not say anything to anybody I wouldn’t say in their presence.

You say, “We, as John Barnes MFR trained therapists, make no determination to any effect (of recovered memory) as you have so frequently and incorrectly stated.”

Can you explain then why his book is full of one story after another about this?

More later.
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Old 03-01-2006, 06:15 PM   #31
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Walt,

It is my opinion that "unwinding" is an instance of ideomotion. Ideomotion is not "unwinding" however because unwinding purports the presence and fixing of something that is biologically implausible. For a more objective example, dowsing is an instance ideomotion but ideomotion is not dowsing for dowsing also has claims that are paranormal.


Walt, we all have our filters. I think the difference is what our filters are. I disagree with your comment about bias in the sense that a bias implies an unfair way of sifting information. If anyone has been unfair, please point it out.

What core concepts do I need to understand in order to accept the workings of MFR?
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Old 03-01-2006, 09:24 PM   #32
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Good point Jon, all cows are animals but not all animals are cows.

Walt:
Quote:
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
You're welcome.

Quote:
There seems to be two distinct directions that this interchange has taken. One, from you and many others, is an inquiry into the workings of Myofascial Release, seemingly made from a neutral and inquisitve base. Others have chosen to insert their biases.
Walt, I have a h-u-g-e bias. It is thick and wide and deep.

Quote:
One of the primary requsts from readers centers around a scientific rationale for Myofascial Release that explains every and all aspect of the work, with an assumption that if it is not "provable", then it should be discarded.
Hmmnn.. I would beg to differ. I think rather the name should be scrapped as misleading.

Quote:
Proving that emotions lie stored in the body, not the brain, mis a slippery slope of emerging awareness and research, based on years of observation by many sources.
??

Quote:
I would direct you to James Oschman's book, "Energy Medicine in Therapeutics and Human Performance" for a much more thoughtful and substantiated treatise on these issues.
I've looked through that book, and would place it squarely on the "avoid" list. Others who have taken this book as a core sustaining feature include George Roth, DC ND, of "Quantum Touch" fame. I can't make sense out of what he says. Note, I didn't say "I refuse to understand what he says", I said, "I can't make sense out what he says." Same with Barnes logic. He would seem not to base his thinking on any.

Quote:
No, I am not operating out of a cult mentality, no more than followers of anyone on this site is.
Good to hear!

Quote:
I have seen wonderful things happen to patients over the years, patients who have not been helped by physical therapy, medication, and surgeries, as I'm sure you have as well via your work.
Yes, we all have. That isn't the point.

Quote:
If you are sharp enough, you can find an explanation within your literature to explain these results,
Which literature would that be? PT literature or English literature or science literature or pain science literature... ?

Quote:
but I feel that you will agree that all most of us in this esoteric therapy community rely on the results we achieve as important.
I think results are important but don't feel being esoteric or being thought of in general as being esoteric is in the slightest.

Quote:
As to me sticking around and being up to the challenge of intellectual discourse, count me in.
Good for you!

Quote:
But, and here is the big but, must not we hold everyone to the same challenge.
Please feel free to point out any examples of any thing, any time, that seems unbalanced. I swear we will do everything to be fair, to hold each individaul to the same level of exacting scutiny. Please also be aware that under Barrett's thinking there is nothing but solid bedrock. That's my own opinion, and others would agree, I think. As for what's between you two interpersonally, well, you guys will have to work that part out.

Quote:
Barrett initially stated that he had been waiting for years to engage an MFR therapist in discussion and challenged me to hold open all parts of the MFR that I practice open to discussion. So I must turn the tables. Whel Barrett cites voluminous readings and references for "Simple Contact", I can find NO literature that supports, or even mentions Simple Contact> Shouldn't this be given equal scrutiny? I'm not trying to deflect any uncertainties about the foundations of what I practice, but, WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE?
There is plenty of evidence in the neuroscience literature. His 'technique' for encouraging nnconscious movement might not be well referenced, but non-conscious movement is, a wealth of tough actual neuroscience and pain science supports it, and supports the approach. All of the same science could support your work too, as it does my work, but not when it's called a name that makes no sense.

Quote:
By the way, in the thread you directed me toward (yes, I did read it), further up the page you quote:

Claxton continues:

Quote:
Gendlin called this hazy shadow which they were attending to and allowing slowly to come to fruition, a felt sense, and it was quite different both from a string of thoughts and from the experience of a particular emotion or feeling. It seemed to be the inner ground out of which thoughts, images and feelings would emerge if they were given time and unpremeditated attention.

How about this? Does this not sound like ideomotor movement?

Simple contact must be good stuff, if that is what you are referring to. This sounds like the exact description of the unwinding state in Myofascial Release!
First of all, don't get Simple Contact mixed up with ideomotor movement. They are two classes of things that are related. Second, don't compare unwinding with simple contact. That's like comparing kangaroos with kumquats.

Quote:
Would this state, that you quoted and describe, be able to be explained by hard research? Doubtful.
Well, stick around. You'll see that lots of what we unearth here has to do with uncovering the brain underpinnings of both categories, SC on the one hand and ideomotion on the other.

Quote:
We both operate from an ill-defined space, and this is where growth occurs. Reasearch emerges from original thought. It is within this mindset that MFR can operate.
.. well, that's where it can lurk maybe. When the light finally hits it I wonder what it will do?

Quote:
Surely, it can simply be physical application of techniques, much like any other type of work. But when you connect with the person on the table, in the way you reference, that is when the beauty of our work, yours and mine, come through. Let us both continue the work that we do, accept when there is not an acceptable explanation for it, and keep helping people.
I doubt our work, yours and mine Walt, would look much different to a disinterested observer. However, what's going on inside our heads seems to be radically different. I'm not satisfied operating from a belief system. I propose that MFR is a belief system. I look for any/ all shreads of reality I can find (not Oschman) in the neuroscience and pain literature to enlighten me,(like those links Ian posted), only then I go off and broadcast it.

Quote:
I'm not shutting off any and all questions, not in the least. But, let us set the same standards for all on this site.
As I said before, the same standards will apply to all. Hope you have got some bedrock somewhere.. so far, in probing around, I haven't noticed any very solid ground yet..
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Old 03-01-2006, 09:28 PM   #33
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Walt,

We all follow the teachings of some 'gurus' to some extent. Some of them have been some way off the mark- eg Kendall and muscle focus of years ago, and Sahrmann for a similar reason; but things are changing, and their focal ideas change too.

We follow what appeals to us, and which fits modern neurophysiology research. Ideomotion sits comfortably with the understanding of how the brain organises its organism (body) - or as far as we understand its working - but I think you operate very much as a peripheralist and the brain 'follows' whatever happens to the periphery. Correct me if that is incorrect...

Most of us here, however, understand that the brain is the sole driver and grand interpreter, and whatever we do or not do to the 'body' may or may NOT be tolerated by the brain's perception of what it wants for the organism.

If I tweak someone's ankle beyond the current limits of a certain 'ankle' condition, the CNS will object...and rightly so. I become a threat to the organism; and pain is the result. If there is a whole load of emotional baggage within the organism's brain, the pain will be worse.
Now I could send off some nice touchy-feely-soft-tissue-work messages and the brain then thinks :OK, danger's past' and reduces the pain output.
I could also just talk education with the patient, and exactly the same message will be sent upwards.
I could also massage with some weird aroma-inducted stuff - the same thing can happen.

What counts, is what lasts. With Simple Contact, the patient has control and can continue, fairly easily, with that control/maintenance/whatever.

No dependency on health professionals required.

As you have not answered my previous questions...can you say the same applies for MFR?

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Old 03-01-2006, 09:32 PM   #34
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Let me first introduce myself. My name is Dave Vollmers and I'm an Occupational Therapist with a background in orthopedics specializing in the shoulder and hand. I also have my own practice where I utilized MFR 95% of the time and also work with many counclors to help with patients as they heal. My background in anatomy and the human body I think warrents mentioning because in reading many of these posts it appears that there is probably not a single person that has had my experiance and this is where people are reliying on research (most of which - to me - is skewed and misinformed about the human body). I worked on the spinal research team at the Medical College of Wisconsin for over 3 years with many awesome orthopedists and surgeons (one of which being Dr. Ahn who created pedical screwing as a fusion technique). In my years at MCW I was responsible for harvesting fresh human cadavers (don't make the mistake of thinking they were emblamed which is why I think most research is flawed) approximately 3-5 days post mortim. To my credit I've harvested over 300 human cadavers.

I am not a researcher because personally most of the research that I've read (and helped write) boils down to personal bias of the data. So many times I have read an author's abstract, method & conclusion to find that I can't come up with the same conclusions when I've looked over their data. Most of this research was in the field of OT or PT. Please don't feel this is an attack on research but to me experience and self experimentation is the best way to understand the human body and how it reacts to life experiances.

That being said I've read a lot of the posts regarding MFR on the forum and have a few things to add.

1. During the discussion on how emotion plays a role in trauma and how MFR therapists help people to heal utilizing these emotions. The one thing I've noticed is that it doesn't seem clear that as MFR therapists we are not trying to interpet the emotions that come out but only reflecting these emotions back on the patient for them to figure out. In the case of the blog quote of the person having Tina on top of her and asking her to fight I think there were details that were left out. When treating patients we only put in enough pressure for the body to respond, that is to say we place our hands onto the patient and allow our hands/body to sink in until there is slight resistance. Sometimes there is very little pressure and others it seems that we need the weight of 3 people on one spot inorder to reach that barrier. I think it is the same difference any manipulatory therapist feels when they try to manipulate a joint - sometimes you mearly have to think pressure and the patient is screaming in pain and other times you brace your foot against the treatment table and pull only to have the patient respond by saying you can pull harder. In the quote that was used the patient is only focusing on the moment just prior to an emotional release. It is very possible that up until that time when Tina would put pressure into her system the patient would push back because her body desired more pressure. Therefore at the moment just prior to the emotional release the pressure she felt or the pressure her body "asked" for may have been enough that required Tina to get onto the table (trust me I've had Tina sit on me and she is a very light woman so if she needed to create a good amount of pressure she probably needed to hang onto the table). Once the emotion presented itself as a need to fight and get away Tina just projected it back to the patient. This is not a counceling method because we aren't judging the emotion that came up nor are we advising the patient what to do with the emotion we are mearly reflecting it back to the patient. Once the emotion played itself out Tina let the patient know she was safe (gee if you have kids I'm pretty sure you've done the same with the exception we are not trying to take on their emotion or take it away - only identifying it and reflecting it back to the patient). As therapsits all of us have had patients that needed to be shown that they have the ability to do something even if they can't imagine the movement consciously and that is exactly what Tina was doing when she told the patient she was safe.
2. I hope that the previous comment is enough to help people understand that it isn't us or our intention that drives these emotions or even encourages them. As therapists, John tries to teaches us to listen to the person's body to help them. We call this the fascial voice and every therapist that remotely cares for their patients listens to this "voice". It is the body language of the patient that tells us where to touch and how much pressure to use. For example if I'm working on a patient's leg and notice a red area on the shoulder I'm going to work on the shoulder next and then follow the patient's body on where to go after that. Sometimes the voice is more of a physical act (we call it unwinding). This is when the patient begins to move without our initiation of movement. John teaches that unwinding is movement the body uses to help with releaseing itself regardless of it's current position in space and therefore a person may unwind off the table head first inorder to obtain a stretch in the thoracic region.

I've only covered a couple of things and I would like to post some more but for now I have patients to see and therefore must go. Thank you Walt for invinting me and I hope that this discussion proves to be a learning experiance all the way around.
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Old 03-01-2006, 10:58 PM   #35
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Dave, what exactly is entailed with the harvest of cadavers and what did you see in these dead people.

Quote:
Once the emotion presented itself as a need to fight and get away Tina just projected it back to the patient.
Do you suppose that need to fight and get away arose because she was being pinned down? I mean if you create the emotion then you didn't really release anything right?

You state

Quote:
It is very possible that up until that time when Tina would put pressure into her system the patient would push back because her body desired more pressure.
Isn't it just as equally possible that she wanted Tina to ease up? I remember some cops accidently killing someone by sitting on the perpetrators chest. He began to fight harder and harder. They mistook it for his resisting arrest. If they only knew he wanted more pressure they probably wouldn't feel as guilty as they probably do.

Now before I get accused of being unfair, realize I'm using an outrageous example to illustrate that your filter is working just as hard as anyone's.
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Old 03-01-2006, 11:34 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Newman
Dave, what exactly is entailed with the harvest of cadavers and what did you see in these dead people.
Jon, most medical professionals have disceted cadavers that have been embalmed for a minimum period of 6 months - at that point the embalming fluid has actually caused many soft tissues to either become hard or desinegrate. So when you have the honor of disceting into a fresh cadaver all of these soft tissues, along with the body's natural fluids, are present and display their natural tensile strengths. For example the fascial system under the scapula is pretty thick in a fresh cadaver and will dull a number 10 scaple blade 1/2 way through (normally I used the same blade to appreciate the skin, muscle and tendons along the spine from C3 - S5 and from the body of both L and R ribs. This is a large area to cut into and the blade was usually still pretty sharp. However after about 3 inches of cutting into the fascial system under the scapuala the blade was a dull as a butter knife. Contrary to an embalmed body where I was able to appreciate the whole shoulder complex including scapula, rotator cuff and continue to appreicate the entire spine. What this shows is that research into the strength/resilancy of the fascial system (when done on embalmed cadavers which usually the case) is inherently flawed.



Do you suppose that need to fight and get away arose because she was being pinned down? I mean if you create the emotion then you didn't really release anything right?

Only if the pressure was placed prior to the emotion arising. John teaches to be gentle and wait for the body to respond, not to put hard pressure in and look for a response you want. This would be forcing your intention and your plan on a patient which would never work and then validate your next comment. What usually happens is that as you place gentle pressure into the system the patient may ask for more pressure either by pushing back (at that point you only match thier resistance not over power them - that way if the patient is actually trying to push you away they will back off and the therapist is left pushing air and neither gets hurt) or literly asking for more pressure. If you don't do the technique correctly and you force your intention then you would be correct in that the therapist created the emotion and not the patient.



Isn't it just as equally possible that she wanted Tina to ease up? I remember some cops accidently killing someone by sitting on the perpetrators chest. He began to fight harder and harder. They mistook it for his resisting arrest. If they only knew he wanted more pressure they probably wouldn't feel as guilty as they probably do.


You have a point but as I stated above in MFR we only match the pressure the patient is giving us back when they ask for more pressure. To start we are only sinking into a "barrier" or a place where we feel minimal resistance. This "barrier" is way before the place where a patient might feel a stretch or that someone is applying to much pressure. The other thing that hasn't been said is that each patient that comes in for treatment is told that if the pressure or technique is too much for them or not what they want all they have to say is "halt" and we take our hands off the patient (providing it's safe). Finally because I personally know Tina I know that she is the type of person that if she is unsure what the patient wants she will ask them to give them an opportunity to stop the therapy.


Hope this clears up some stuff.

Dave

Last edited by bernard; 04-01-2006 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 03-01-2006, 11:50 PM   #37
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Dave

Thanks for your posts..

Two points: (there are others but these will do for now)

Re the barrier....why is a 'barrier' a place of minimal resistance? Why use the term out of its true meaning?

And,
Quote:
.."all they have to say is 'halt' and we take our hands of the patient (provided it's safe).."
Under what conditions would it be unsafe?? Where are these people in the room?

Whether fresh off the ground or embalmed, cadavers are never a good way to understand how the body works. They are fine for anatomy rote learning, and not much else.


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Old 04-01-2006, 12:08 AM   #38
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Dave, I have to say that it's all a little "Your lips say no but your eyes say yes, yes, yes" for me. If the patient pushes back but doesn't say anything in particular or anything at all, isn't it necessarily the therapist that interprets what that means and thus what happens next is the therapist's intent. This does not bar the therapist from being right of course but it wouldn't be accurate to state that something the therapist does to someone is because the patient asked for it if they didn't actually ask for it.

I still don't have a good appreciation for what you learned from dead people that leads you to believe memories are stored in fascia.
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Old 04-01-2006, 12:35 AM   #39
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Hi Dave,

As was mentioned previously, I don't think anyone here is questioning the tensile strength or resiliancy of fascia. Perhaps you have more ready access the studies showing that memories and trauma are stored in the fascia. If so, can you please post them.

I understand what you are saying about research, however there does come a point when enough people agree on the data that an idea can start to become accepted. Subjective evidence can play a part but the problem with such "experience and self experimentation" is that the human brain is often too eager to create meaning out whatever information it has at the time. This can produce some very, very wacky perceptions at times (read anything by VS Ramachandran for more on this). For example, the cop Jon mentioned pooled the information available to him and came up with the mistaken interpretation that the person was resisting his arrest. Likewise Tina came up with an interpretation that somehow the patient's body was asking her pin it to the table. It appears that this conclusion was generated in the context of a belief system that is independant of what we know about the functioning of the human organism. If it was not, then we would like to see/understand the accepted knowledge that might validate such a conclusion.

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Luke
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Old 04-01-2006, 02:23 AM   #40
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Hi Dave,
Welcome to SS and to our rollicking little conversation!
I have a big interest in anatomical minutiae and am very interested in learning more about your experience. I agree that much that is potentially useful to know about gets burned off with preservation. Even in unembalmed cadavers, dead is really still, compared to alive organisms, isn't it?
I have a question or two about what you observed.
1. First, did you see/dissect/ examine skin ligaments, how they lie in there, which directions? and if so..
2. Did you examine any of the skin ligaments that are mini neural conduits?
3. Did you examine anyting about the skin layer itself or did you dive straight through it (slice it off) to get to the fascia?
4. If you did examine the microanatomy of the skin, as in under a microscope, were you able to observe/examine/appreciate all the innervation it carries?
Thank you.
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Old 04-01-2006, 04:36 AM   #41
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Luke -

you wrote: "however there does come a point when enough people agree on the data that an idea can start to become accepted." The questions that come to mind with this statement are:
1. As my mom has said "If everyone jumps off a bridge, does that make it right?" More plainly if you can convience alot of people (weather it be through skewed research or just via case studies) that a hypothesis is correct does that mean it is correct? Case in point the studies on phonophoresis as a viable modality to get cortizone into the structures under the skin only proves a depth of absorption of 1 mm and yet millions of therapists swear that it's the best modality for tendonitis.
2. John Barnes has taught over 50,000 therapists his technique and thousands utilize it everyday with exceptional responses/results. Does this not, in itself, show merit for the prinicpals he teaches.

Just a friendly question and not meant to taunt.

Dave
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Old 04-01-2006, 04:38 AM   #42
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Hello All!

As I stated in one of my first posts, I think that Barrett performs and teaches good work. Along that line, someone, a while back, posted some research items on ideomotor action (or similar) to explain Simple Contact. I ask if someone has access to these citations if they could please re-post them for we newcomers. Thanks in advance.


Diane,

"I've looked through that book, and would place it squarely on the "avoid list" (by the way, how do I get those quote boxes like you use?). As for Oschman's well researched work, dismissing it out of hand, as you have done, merely proves the point that any research or writings can be dismissed if you, yourself do not agree with them or feel they are invalid. Like cited an article negating the validity of Upledger/cranial osteopathy. While I do not disagree with many of the concepts presented, again, these PhD's opinions, backed up by the research that validates their opinion, a very telling statement was made at the end of this citation: "A clinical encounter can be an empty experiential slate upon which both patients and practitioners may paint a picture of clinical success, even when the method is ineffective. Most maladies improve without treatment, placebo effects and regression to the mean may lead to improvements not directly caused by the treatment, and subjective validation may lead to imagined improvements where none exists". If we are to post citations and trust research, do we pick and choose which parts of the research to believe? These "trusted" researchers just invalidated all that we work for, as " most maladies improve without treatment". I hope that we all do not feel this is true, as we see the opposite in our treatment room every day.

To all of you, there is obviously no evidence that you will accept that states that emotions lie within the cells or the tissues. If what we do on a daily basis, helping people to recover from longstanding pain disorders when all else has failed, seems untrustable or beyond belief, then step aside so we can continue. As I stated in the forward of John Barnes book, Healiing Ancient Wounds":

"Being a master is not about higher learning. Being a master is about learning a lesson, learning each lesson, as if it were being taught for the very first time. Every time the master interacts with his student, the lesson is new and the outcome is unique.

Being a Master is not about teaching. Being a master is about guiding the student toward knowledge through example, thought, and empowerment. The master takes the student where self-discovery is the next and only logical step.

This paraphrasing of a traditional eastern way of thought comes from Gary Zukav's book, The Dancing Wu Li Masters". In it, Zukav defines the master as one who "teaches essence. When the essence is percieved, he teaches what is necessary to expand the perception." By learing the fundamental nature of a problem, the student is able to make the logical step toward understanding. John F. barnes, PT, has the ability to teach essence."


Those of you familiar with Barrett's writing will no doubt refer to his brutal "review" of this book. So be it. John teaches the essence that many of us find wholly valuable in what we do. Decide for yourselves; do you want to find out what you are capable of? I must point out what Barrett stated in a previous post, that he was going to ask his audience over the next few days what is really taught in a Barnes seminar. As I stated previously, I have instructed at over 50 of John's seminars, and have never heard him defame another practitioner or teacher in his seminars. Why would a person, with only one day to spread the good news about his work during his seminar, spend precious time demeaning someone else and their work when they could be spending that time teaching more of all of the good things that they can teach?

Barrett, just one thought on your comments, (more to follow as well),
You stated that you only posted the blog link to the patient treated at John's clinic only twice, but you failed to mention how much time you spent dragging the process down:

(http://www.somasimple.com/forums/sho...ght=myofascial) commenting on her difficult but successful journey out of pain.

Here are a few things you had to say, in addition to the 2 posts:

"The practices clearly described in the blog-all done within the past month-are a regular part of Barnes' approach. His apologists tell me that they simply "don't go into that part of it" and state that MFR "unwinding" is identical to the ideomotor correction I describe. Can you appreciate why that sets my teeth on edge?

I got kicked off the "MFR chat" recently, a place where they occassionally talk to each other about what an awful person I am and how I must have been abused in order to get that way. I wonder who they'd like me to blame?"

"I'm glad you can finally see why I have been the way you've known me for several years. I guess it took this woman's blog to do it though numerous descriptions of this work have been a part of the public record for years. I hear story after story from one PT after another, but almost always in hushed tones."

"At every course I teach I get the same questions: “Isn’t this what Barnes teaches? Isn’t this “unwinding”? Aren’t you just getting “releases”? How is this different?”

"In response I can feel my spine stiffen and my breath shorten. I know my eyes clearly display the fury that has grown in me year after year as I hear about what goes on at the MFR courses and in the clinics. If the blog linked here does not reflect a typical experience anyone working in those places or attending the courses has, someone personally familiar with the courses or clinics should say so. After 32 years in this business I am somewhat proprietary about my profession and I am sensitive to the way it is practiced. For that I make no apologies.

I grow especially angry when people lump me in with this sort of practice and will not apologize for that either. Nor do I suppose I need to explain that anger.

This is not all I have to say, but at this point I will give anyone wishing to defend and explain what was done to this woman time to reply. We all know you’re out there reading this."

So much for only "2 posts".

Have you seen the entry on Wikipedia.com on Myofascial Release? Have you Barrett? I know this seems to be directly cut and pasted from Art Riggs' website. Barrett, (I am assuming that you did not post this link on Riggs' site or Wikipedia.com), do you condone this? Why don't you promote your own work with as much energy as you put into TRYING to drag Myofascial Release and John Barnes down? If your work is as good as you say it is, why is Jon Child's, of the American Physical therapy Association, trying to discredit you? Being lumped together with John should prove to you that you have made it! The establishment wants to bring you down. This is the success I spoke about in an earlier post. You must be somebody if they want to keep people away from your seminars! And, the success that I wished upon you was to flurish when open minded PT's see that you must being teaching something worthwhile.


Walt
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Old 04-01-2006, 05:14 AM   #43
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Walt, Dave,

Help me understand something. The patients you help improve. So at a minimum, some element of your therapeutic interaction is helping. Much of the improvement can likely be explained, plausibly, by our current understanding of pain physiology. Here's the part you can help me with. Why should I abandon these reasons and adopt a theory that seems to defy neurophysiology and may lead me to do more than is necessary and increase the risk of unintended consequences?

In the attempt to widen the sieve of my brain, let's pretend for a moment that the fascia indeed can store an emotion. What aspect of a stored emotion is irritating? Is the emotion rubbing on free nerve endings? Do you think that that can really happen? Once the emotion is released, where does it go that it is no longer painful?
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Old 04-01-2006, 05:25 AM   #44
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Jon -

You wrote: I still don't have a good appreciation for what you learned from dead people that leads you to believe memories are stored in fascia.

I apoligize if you thought that the compairson between embalmed and unembalmed cadavers was a discusion regarding the knowledge that memories are stored in the fascia. I think that Diane or another neuroanatomist would be a better person to answer your question because what you are really questioning is how does the body stores memory in the tissue. My knowledge of cellular biology is very, very weak and I wouldn't want to insult other's knowledge by trying to explain this topic that way. therefore let me utilize straight observation of the human condition and break it down this way
1. The fascial system is a 3-D web of connective tissue that everything goes through,in or around. This is the point of discecting fresh cadavers - an embalmed cadaver has a fascial system that is, for lack of a better term, destroyed by the nature of the the embalming fluid and the only part of it that is left is the areas of fascia that are pretty thick in nature such as the superficial layer benieth the skin or the area between the hemisphers of the brain. If you have the pleasure of discecting a fresh cadaver you would notice that the fascial system is found between each cell, spindel, fiber and bundle of a muscle and therefore it is what makes up the shape and form of a muscle (which is why some people will say there is no such thing as a true muscle). Because of it's direct connection to the muscles I can then ask you to try and understand motor memory or the ability of the body to remember tasks and then perform them repeatitively. For example if it wasn't for motor memory Barrette would not be able to juggle and ultimately perform new moves because his muscles would have to learn the task everytime he juggled. Also I wouldn't be able to type without looking at the keyboard because my muscles would have to learn how to perform these coordinated movments each time I attempted to type.

2. Secondly every trauma that a person endures has an emotion attached to it, don't believe me please come up with one. Everything that has happened in your life from skinning you knee where the emotion of fear of getting in trouble for something that was associated with it or the fear of seeing blood come out of your skin to the fear of death or fear of outcome that people have related to a surgery. Even the emotion associated with a breakup/divorce can be stored. How else can you explain a person that was assulted or abused has an adverse physical reaction (vommiting/nausea) everytime they see a person that reminds them of their attacker. Or the panic/nausea and sometimes paralizing of the muscles a person experiances everytime a large truck comes up along side of them while they are driving after they had a car accident with a large truck that side swiped them.

3. If that is difficult to understand than lets make it even more simple. Emotion can be related to or a least grouped with stress. Think of how many people grind their teeth at night or tighten up their shoulders because of stress. This prolonged posture or abuse to the TMJ causes physical pain and malfunction. Yes you can argue that this emotion isn't stored in the body, however than explain why is it that although the stress/emotion has been removed (i.e. you quite the job that had the boss who made advances at you or downright attacted you) and yet another stressor/emotion comes by and your body reacts the same exact way? Sounds like a memory to me.

I hope this is the type of discussion you were looking for.

Dave
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Old 04-01-2006, 05:30 AM   #45
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Walt, Dave..

There have been some questions asked by jon, Luke, myself and others.

Answers seem to have been delayed; and these questions have not been reasonably answered in the few references and stories related.
At the start of the discussion, you welcomed questions.

Has that changed? If so, would we be wrong assuming that the answers are not known?

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Old 04-01-2006, 05:33 AM   #46
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Jon,

As I have stated, the concept of emotions stored in the body (vs. the mind) is yet to be discovered to the level that some will need. Think of it this way: If there is an injury or insult to a specific area of the body, (please excuse my lack of awareness of scientific references, etc, just follow me) the pain as well as the trauma is retained at that level. The concept of deja vu, which we all have experienced in the form of sight, smell, etc, follows this line. When the tissues are touched in a certain way, or the body assumes a specific position in space that reprocduces that deja vu-type memory, emotions come to the surface. (I'm flying from an experientail basis here). Releasing those involved tissues allows the patient to move through both the physical pain as well as the emotional memory.

There is no need to discard all of the excellent modalities which one already uses. MFR wonderfully compliments existing methodologies. The only consequences that will result is for your patients to move farther along with their progress. As for unintended consequences...there are none. No, I don't feel that an emotion is rubbing upon a free nerve ending. The research that has not been accepted thus far by this forum shows the potential that it is stored in the microtubules of the body, rather than the brain, local to the site of insult. You seem to be asking for opinion, so there it was.
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Old 04-01-2006, 05:52 AM   #47
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Nari,
Restate the questions, please. Signing off for tonight but will answer as much as I am able tomorrow. Thank you for your patience,as there are many different streams flowing here.

Walt
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Old 04-01-2006, 06:23 AM   #48
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Nari -

you wrote: Re the barrier....why is a 'barrier' a place of minimal resistance? Why use the term out of its true meaning?

These are the definitions that I'm utilizing
1. In the handbook of MFR I John writes "The purpose of deep Myofascial Release" (this would be any area deeper than the superficial layer located under the skin) "is to relase restriction (barrier) within the deeper layers of fascia."

2. The webster's online dictionary states (http://www.websters-online-dictionar...nition/barrier)
"Barrier
Noun
1. A structure or object that impedes free movement.
2. Any condition that makes it difficult to make progress or to achieve an objective; "intolerance is a barrier to understanding".
3. Anything serving to maintain separation by obstructing vision or access."
NOTE: I am focusing on the 1st definition
The use of "minimal resistance" is to help people understand that as MFR therapists we are not sinking in until we hit bone or another hard structure but mearly a resistance in the tissue which may be just under the skin to as deep as the errector spinae muscles of the back.

I guess I would have to ask to post your definition of barrier in order to see if we are utilizing the same definitions or if this line of questioning is turning into a situation of word worshiping or at the least a discussion of sympantics based on our own belief system.

You also wrote: Under what conditions would it be unsafe?? Where are these people in the room?

Unsafe conditions would be any condition that the person would be at risk for injury if you took your hands off too quickly. This may be at a point where a patient is unwinding and their head is off the table and therefore if you just let go the person's neck would be dropped causing a whiplash type of injury. As to were are people in the room - simply they are touching the patient. MFR can be performed one on one or with multiple therapists in the room working on the patient at the same time. Multiple therapist treatments are really cool - think of having a therapist touch you/treat you in all the areas that are causing you pain at the same time. Can this be overwhelming - yes but many times it is a situation that allows your body to truly let go because your brain can't process all of this at the same time so it shuts up allowing your body to truly heal or at the very least let go. As Walt stated before a patient always has the right to request a private session at the beginning of the session (other therapists aren't allowed in until after the primary therapist enters the room and askes the patient if it's okay for others to help out. to Tina's credit I've actually heard her say to patients after they have hesitated when question this way that maybe it would be best if the other therapists didn't come in. At this point the patient can either disagree with her or be passive knowing that Tina had their best intrest at heart and just agree to avoid feeling like they have refused treatment or hurt someone else's feelings)

Finally you wrote: Whether fresh off the ground or embalmed, cadavers are never a good way to understand how the body works. They are fine for anatomy rote learning, and not much else.


I would have to disagree because unless you have done cadaver study you are just taking what others say as a basis for many therapist at face value. For example if I were to tell you that the muscles of the back were very thin and therefore strengthening them would be pointless, then did a study to show how many people have very weak core strength you would have no choice but to believe it unless you have opened up a person and seen for yourself. The human body is a thing of beauty and a gallery showing entitled "bodyworks" showes this (http://www.bodyworlds.com/en/pages/home.asp). Take a look if you get a chance and then tell me that seeing this only allows you "rote" information and not a true understanding of the complexities of the human body.

Finally I think I read in your profile that you are a physiotherapist - I have to admit I have no clue what your training is and I wouldn't want to insult you or your training but if you have never had the pleasure of disceting a human cadaver I would like to suggest that you take a course and then relook at your statement that this form of study on gives you rote information.

Dave
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Old 04-01-2006, 06:23 AM   #49
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A short post about using the quote function.

Place text in a "box" by doing the following:

1. Write the word 'quote' inside square brackets ahead of your text, i.e., [ quote ]. (Do not allow spaces the way I did; eliminate those.)

2. Then write the text or paste in whatever you wish to quote.

3. Finish with [ /quote ], again without spaces.

Your selected text will appear inside a quote box.

Dave, did you miss my questions about your dissections? They are in post #40.
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Old 04-01-2006, 06:26 AM   #50
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Nari -

You wrote: Answers seem to have been delayed; and these questions have not been reasonably answered in the few references and stories related.
At the start of the discussion, you welcomed questions.


I've been typing for quite a while tonight and thought these were answers to questions that have been asked. If I am mistaken please give me a specific example and I'll try again to answer the question. If my responses don't appear to answer any question then please let me know. I may not be the best at writing or formulating responses at times but I would like to learn what your expectations are so that I can respond in a manner that helps you.

Dave
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