SomaSimple Discussion Lists  

Go Back   SomaSimple Discussion Lists > Physiotherapy / Physical Therapy / Manual Therapy / Bodywork > General Discussion
Albums Quiz PubMed Gray's Anatomy Tags Online Journals Statistics

Notices

General Discussion this forum is opened to all registered users of somasimple

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 29-10-2012, 06:12 PM   #1
Curious One
Senior Member
 
Curious One's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Texas
Age: 47
Posts: 464
Thanks: 659
Thanked 234 Times in 165 Posts
Default Nerve Flossing / Neural Glide

I have run across a few threads now that mention Nerve Flossing, which after doing a little searching via the SS site, seems (to me) to be aka "Neural Glide".

I have not heard of either, I would be very appreciative if anyone who knows more on these subjects could point me in the direction of "good" information. If you want to comment, along with your links, I'll be pleased to read that too.

I have done a few google searches, but, since I graduated 20 years ago, and did not hear of this while in school or over the years, I would like to make sure that I don't get a bastardized explanation or view, if possible (as many which turn up in the google search are DC related).

I am certainly not averse to reading info put out by any DC who uses these techniques, but if this is a PT concept, I think it may make more sense to get it from the *original* horses mouth.

Thanks in advance!
__________________
C.O. ( gender: ) - LMT, BS(Anatomy), DC
Music Fog... pick a song to listen to... you can't go wrong.
Need relaxation samples for your office? I have made a Deep Relaxation Massage Music Pandora Station and have others that may also be useful - about 8 massage music stations and about 49 other nifty options.

Last edited by Curious One; 29-10-2012 at 06:15 PM. Reason: - correction of sentence completion
Curious One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-10-2012, 06:14 PM   #2
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 23,374
Thanks: 3,456
Thanked 6,733 Times in 3,039 Posts
Default

Look up papers/books on the topic by David Butler, Michael Shacklock. They talk about somebody who was before my time, called Elvy or Elvey.
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Diane For This Useful Post:
Alice Sanvito (25-03-2014), Curious One (29-10-2012)
Old 29-10-2012, 08:10 PM   #3
Curious One
Senior Member
 
Curious One's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Texas
Age: 47
Posts: 464
Thanks: 659
Thanked 234 Times in 165 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diane View Post
Look up papers/books on the topic by David Butler, Michael Shacklock. They talk about somebody who was before my time, called Elvy or Elvey.
Hi Diane,

Thanks for the response.

Could someone let me know what the connection is with ART as well? I just ran across a link and want to be knowledgable of any connection or mis-connection.

Thanks in advance.
__________________
C.O. ( gender: ) - LMT, BS(Anatomy), DC
Music Fog... pick a song to listen to... you can't go wrong.
Need relaxation samples for your office? I have made a Deep Relaxation Massage Music Pandora Station and have others that may also be useful - about 8 massage music stations and about 49 other nifty options.
Curious One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2012, 12:34 AM   #4
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 23,374
Thanks: 3,456
Thanked 6,733 Times in 3,039 Posts
Default

There isn't any connection, as far as I know.
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Diane For This Useful Post:
Curious One (30-10-2012)
Old 30-10-2012, 01:19 AM   #5
Curious One
Senior Member
 
Curious One's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Texas
Age: 47
Posts: 464
Thanks: 659
Thanked 234 Times in 165 Posts
Default

So far I have located the following document, which looks like a step in the right direction. It seems I may have been working with neural glide and never even knew it, after looking at the cervical lateral glide information.

Robert J. Nee
a,*, David Butler b

a


School of Physical Therapy, Pacific University, Forest Grove, OR 97116, USA

b


Neuro Orthopedic Institute, Adelaide City West, SA, Australia
Received 2 September 2005; received in revised form 29 September 2005; accepted 3 October 2005



I'll keep looking around, and if no one wants to add any information to this thread, I'll just post what I locate for anyone else who may have been wondering.

Any and all input is greatly appreciated, as I feel I am starting at square one.

Thanks in advance.
__________________
C.O. ( gender: ) - LMT, BS(Anatomy), DC
Music Fog... pick a song to listen to... you can't go wrong.
Need relaxation samples for your office? I have made a Deep Relaxation Massage Music Pandora Station and have others that may also be useful - about 8 massage music stations and about 49 other nifty options.
Curious One is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Curious One For This Useful Post:
Diane (30-10-2012)
Old 30-10-2012, 01:39 AM   #6
Curious One
Senior Member
 
Curious One's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Texas
Age: 47
Posts: 464
Thanks: 659
Thanked 234 Times in 165 Posts
Default

I also located this link to a video which describes "median nerve progression" or "neurodynamic progression", which is very similar to something I do for myself intermittently.

Just so I know if I am on the right track or moving in the wrong direction, would this be something similar or considered to be the same as neural glide / nerve flossing?

Again, thanks in advance.
__________________
C.O. ( gender: ) - LMT, BS(Anatomy), DC
Music Fog... pick a song to listen to... you can't go wrong.
Need relaxation samples for your office? I have made a Deep Relaxation Massage Music Pandora Station and have others that may also be useful - about 8 massage music stations and about 49 other nifty options.

Last edited by Curious One; 30-10-2012 at 02:00 AM. Reason: - spelling error
Curious One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2012, 01:40 AM   #7
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 23,374
Thanks: 3,456
Thanked 6,733 Times in 3,039 Posts
Default

It's a good start. Thank you for taking it on.
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Diane For This Useful Post:
Curious One (30-10-2012)
Old 30-10-2012, 02:40 AM   #8
John W
"Mean Poopy-Pants" Club Founding Member
 
John W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mandeville, LA
Age: 50
Posts: 6,348
Thanks: 1,935
Thanked 3,348 Times in 1,299 Posts
Default

CO,
Do a Pubmed search for Coppieters MW for research articles investigating neurodynamics.
__________________
John Ware, PT
Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
"Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
“If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3
John W is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to John W For This Useful Post:
Curious One (30-10-2012)
Old 30-10-2012, 02:46 AM   #9
Karen L
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Timely reference John thank you. Coppieters MW seems to be doing excellent research.

Quote:
J Physiother. 2012;58(1):23-31.
Neural tissue management provides immediate clinically relevant benefits without harmful effects for patients with nerve-related neck and arm pain: a randomised trial.
Nee RJ, Vicenzino B, Jull GA, Cleland JA, Coppieters MW.
Source
Division of Physiotherapy, School of Health and Rehabilitation Sciences, The University of Queensland, Australia.
Abstract
QUESTION:
What are the benefits and harms of neural tissue management in the short term for treating nerve-related neck and arm pain?

DESIGN:
Randomised controlled trial.

PARTICIPANTS:
Sixty participants with non-traumatic nerve-related neck and unilateral arm pain were randomised to experimental (n=40) or control (n=20) groups.

INTERVENTION:
Both groups were advised to continue usual activities. The experimental group also received education, manual therapy, and nerve gliding exercises in 4 treatments over 2 weeks.

OUTCOME MEASURES:
Primary outcomes were participant-reported improvement and worsening on a Global Rating of Change scale. Secondary outcomes were neck pain, arm pain, the Neck Disability Index, the Patient-Specific Functional Scale, and adverse events related to treatment. Follow-up occurred 3-4 weeks after baseline.

RESULTS:
Numbers needed to treat favoured the experimental intervention for participant-reported improvement (2.7, 95% CI 1.7 to 6.5), neck pain (3.6, 95% CI 2.1 to 10), arm pain (3.6, 95% CI 2.1 to 10), Neck Disability Index (4.3, 95% CI 2.4 to 18.2), and Patient-Specific Functional Scale (3.0, 95% CI 1.9 to 6.7). The prevalence of worsening in the experimental (13%) and control (20%) groups were not different (RD -7%, 95% CI -28 to 13). Adverse events had minimal impact on daily activities and did not reduce the chance of improving with the experimental intervention (RR = 1.03, 95% CI 0.58 to 1.84).

CONCLUSION:
These results enable physiotherapists to inform patients that neural tissue management provides immediate clinically relevant benefits beyond advice to remain active with no evidence of harmful effects.
Karen
  Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to For This Useful Post:
Curious One (30-10-2012), nari (30-10-2012)
Old 30-10-2012, 03:14 AM   #10
Tirving
Devolving to evolve
 
Tirving's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Posts: 445
Thanks: 320
Thanked 206 Times in 116 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karen L View Post
Timely reference John thank you. Coppieters MW seems to be doing excellent research.



Karen
Nice!
Anyone have a PDF of that study?
__________________
Tim Irving DC, MS, LMT
Tirving is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2012, 03:56 AM   #11
Karen L
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I moderated the previous post to the Sound of Silence. Link

Thanks to Mark Hollis.

Karen
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to For This Useful Post:
kongen (30-10-2012)
Old 30-10-2012, 04:56 PM   #12
Curious One
Senior Member
 
Curious One's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Texas
Age: 47
Posts: 464
Thanks: 659
Thanked 234 Times in 165 Posts
Default

Thanks to everyone responding here.

Since I am still learning about Nerve Flossing / Neural Glide, I think now is a good time to ask the following:
"Is this a technique that is regularly taught to PT's in school, or is this something most of you learned elsewhere?"

and,

"Since I am finding information on it across the internet, is it commonly used, moderately or minimal?"

That may help to get me started a little better. Looking up the docs is a great thing for me to do, but since I don't even know much about it, I'd love to get some sort of base-line.

So far, this is what I have come up with from the initial suggestions of Diane. I have not had a chance to follow up on any one elses thoughts yet.

If any information can or should be added to these that follow, I am open to listening.
  • "Nerve mobilization consists of applying gentle, precise pressure to a fixated or restricted nerve in order to glide or floss it through the nerve sheath that houses the nerve inside a tube like structure. Performing a mobilization on the nerve fixation will free the nerve and will help restore the proper signaling to the compromised structure that it innervates and therefore improve the function of the muscle, organ, or fascia." http://www.stevekravitz.com/blog/
  • A SomaSimple link which describes M. Shacklock's course: Shacklock's course

  • A link to read part or all of Shacklock's book: Clinical Neurodynamics


  • While searching for Elvey, I ran across a course that Toby Hall (mentioned in the Hall, Elvey research bibliographies) teaches: Orthopaedic Manual Therapy Course
     
    "
    Toby Hall and Bob Elvey have worked closely together for many years and have developed some of the most important and recent advances in manual therapy. Toby instructs participants in the pathogenesis, assessment and management of neural tissue pain disorders. Classification of spinal pain disorders is an important aspect of this course. The syllabus will encompass evidence based examination procedures required to determine various types of sub-classifications of pain disorders. For example neural pain disorders are classified according to three categories of sensory hypersensitivity, denervation, and peripheral nerve sensitization. This information is very important as it drives treatment choices and is important for identification of patients suitable for neural tissue mobilization techniques."




  • Then I located Elvey here: Physical evaluation of the peripheral nervous system in disorders of pain and dysfunction
Affiliations
Correspondence and reprint requests to Robert L. Elvey, School of Physiotherapy, Curtin University, Selby Street, Shenton Park WA 6008, Western Australia
School of Physiotherapy Curtin University of Technology Shenton Park, Western Australia



  • Last, I ran across this statement in an article NERVE SENSITIVITY – ALTERED NEURODYNAMICS

    "The landmark work of David Butler & Bob Elvey has been central to the integration of neural sensitivity assessment for musculoskeletal clinicians and has give physiotherapists potent weapons in their armoury. Technically speaking, this classification of pain is considered as peripheral neuropathic pain as defined by the International Association for the Study of Pain and is distinct from pain originating from other peripheral tissues because of the nature of the symptoms produced and its response characteristics."

    I was wondering if anyone has the inclination to speak on peripheral neuropathic pain as mentioned here?
Thanks in advance.
__________________
C.O. ( gender: ) - LMT, BS(Anatomy), DC
Music Fog... pick a song to listen to... you can't go wrong.
Need relaxation samples for your office? I have made a Deep Relaxation Massage Music Pandora Station and have others that may also be useful - about 8 massage music stations and about 49 other nifty options.

Last edited by Curious One; 30-10-2012 at 05:06 PM. Reason: -formatting
Curious One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2012, 06:20 PM   #13
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 23,374
Thanks: 3,456
Thanked 6,733 Times in 3,039 Posts
Default

What is your question?
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2012, 06:38 PM   #14
Mabo
SomaSimpler
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Leuven
Age: 60
Posts: 178
Thanks: 588
Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts
Default

I think they are in blue! Diana

marc
Mabo is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Mabo For This Useful Post:
Curious One (31-10-2012)
Old 30-10-2012, 06:46 PM   #15
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 23,374
Thanks: 3,456
Thanked 6,733 Times in 3,039 Posts
Default

Yes, I know they are in blue. I was looking specifically at this one.. "I was wondering if anyone has the inclination to speak on peripheral neuropathic pain as mentioned here?"
It's a big topic. Could the asker be a little bit more specific?
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2012, 06:50 PM   #16
Tirving
Devolving to evolve
 
Tirving's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Posts: 445
Thanks: 320
Thanked 206 Times in 116 Posts
Default

Quote:
I was wondering if anyone has the inclination to speak on peripheral neuropathic pain as mentioned here?
Pages 58-67 in Sensitive Nervous System, entitled "Peripheral Neurogenic Pain"
__________________
Tim Irving DC, MS, LMT
Tirving is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Tirving For This Useful Post:
Curious One (30-10-2012)
Old 30-10-2012, 07:07 PM   #17
Curious One
Senior Member
 
Curious One's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Texas
Age: 47
Posts: 464
Thanks: 659
Thanked 234 Times in 165 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diane View Post
Yes, I know they are in blue. I was looking specifically at this one.. "I was wondering if anyone has the inclination to speak on peripheral neuropathic pain as mentioned here?"
It's a big topic. Could the asker be a little bit more specific?
I have to admit, I am not sure of a more specific question, but I do want to gain a stronger grasp so I can ask understandable questions as they may arise. Possibly you or someone else just has a general thought they are willing to share that will spark my brain to an actual useful question. Or, maybe you could lead me to some conversations here on the forums which cover ideas around this?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Tirving View Post
Pages 58-67 in Sensitive Nervous System, entitled "Peripheral Neurogenic Pain"
Thanks, I'll look into it.


I'm just adding the amazon paperback book link so others don't have to search if they come across this thread:

Quote:
Sensitive Nervous System (829S) [Paperback]
David S. Butler (Author)


Book Description

Release Date: January 1, 2006 | ISBN-10: 0975091026 | ISBN-13: 978-0975091029 | Edition: 1

David Butler's classic text updates and integrates the growing science of neurodynamics. Physical examination of the nervous system is carefully illustrated and explained. Management strategies are underpinned by cutting edge neurobiology and evidence-based medicine. Over 300 drawings/illustrations.
It seems to also be sold as an e-book, but I am not e-book savvy, so I don't know if the second place to purchase it is good or not.

From NOI products (AU): http://www.noigroup.com/en/Product/NSBE
From Online Book Place (USA): http://onlinebookplace.com/the-sensi...stem?region=us


Additional link to discussion of this book in the SS forums.


.

Last edited by Curious One; 30-10-2012 at 07:31 PM. Reason: - add links
Curious One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2012, 07:33 PM   #18
John W
"Mean Poopy-Pants" Club Founding Member
 
John W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mandeville, LA
Age: 50
Posts: 6,348
Thanks: 1,935
Thanked 3,348 Times in 1,299 Posts
Default

All pain is neurogenic.


Always ask yourself this question with any technique: "Is my patient more empowered with respect to their pain problem than before I treated them?" If not, then it's probably not an ultimately valuable technique.
__________________
John Ware, PT
Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
"Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
“If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3
John W is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to John W For This Useful Post:
Alice Sanvito (25-03-2014), Curious One (30-10-2012), Evanthis Raftopoulos (08-02-2013)
Old 30-10-2012, 08:08 PM   #19
Mark Hollis
Senior Moment
 
Mark Hollis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Age: 41
Posts: 507
Thanks: 368
Thanked 626 Times in 256 Posts
Default

I'd also add that all movement has a nerve glide/movement component to it as well. Just because a movement or technique doesn't pay attention to, or address, the neurodynamic component doesn't mean that the component isn't there. So it is possible to read older papers (such as McKenzies extensions (just as an example and not intentionally highlighting just the one author)) and while the mechanisms that they discuss have through time and further research been shown to have less explanatory power (meso/biomech explanations) it is still possible to apply neural understanding to what's been read.

If you press your thumb into skin (perpendicular pressure), stretch the skin (horizontal pressure), passively move or get a person to actively move there will be resultant nerve movement/glide, nerve compression, and nerve traction in different parts of the system each significantly uniquely different. The more internally client activated/the less therapist manually assisted a technique is, the more self (as an active agent) knowledge provided for the client to be able to use to self empower (thanks John W). The techniques as shown by Butler etc show some, but definitely not all, of the possible combinations (and I know Butler says to play with them/tailor them for the client). To show all combinations would be to show the entire cartography of possible human movement.

How the brain/CNS responds to each of those scenarios however... that's a different story.

A paper that helped me in understanding nerve's responses to compressive forces is Rempel which can be found here (c/o Diane with a very large hat-tip from myself because it is such an excellent paper) http://www.somasimple.com/forums/sho...ghlight=rempel
__________________
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." ("Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.“) Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus Ludwig Wittgenstein
Question your tea spoons. Georges Perec

Last edited by Mark Hollis; 30-10-2012 at 08:32 PM. Reason: added a link, the missing link he ponders
Mark Hollis is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Mark Hollis For This Useful Post:
Barrett Dorko (30-10-2012), Boigle (06-04-2013), Bryan (30-10-2012), Curious One (30-10-2012), Diane (30-10-2012), gollygosh (30-10-2012), John W (30-10-2012), Mabo (30-10-2012), PatrickL (31-10-2012), Tirving (31-10-2012)
Old 30-10-2012, 08:23 PM   #20
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 23,374
Thanks: 3,456
Thanked 6,733 Times in 3,039 Posts
Default

Mark Hollis is right.

Nerves live inside long tunnels. Nerves naturally floss through those tunnels. Any kind of movement, even just quiet breathing, flosses nerves.
Any sort of position bends nerves. Look, if you bend your knee or your elbow, or your back, you're dragging a whole nerve net through your whole body. They should still be able to floss through their tunnels anyway. Right?

There is a whole movement/mindfulness thing, called yoga, where you put your body into different positions, and do nothing but deep breathe, and feel your own interoception. It's like graded exposure to auto-flossing.

Sometimes nerves can't floss very well. They become entrapped. Entrapment can be exogenous (from outside the nerve) or endogenous (the nerve swells up for some reason). Then it doesn't floss very well. Too big. Right?

We haven't got to "pain" yet. We may not have even got to nociception yet.
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Diane For This Useful Post:
Curious One (30-10-2012)
Old 30-10-2012, 08:42 PM   #21
Curious One
Senior Member
 
Curious One's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Texas
Age: 47
Posts: 464
Thanks: 659
Thanked 234 Times in 165 Posts
Default

Thanks to everyone. It all makes perfect sense. I get the whole movement issue with the nerves in their tracks and entrapments. I have not however been exposed to a description such as "floss through their tunnels". So this is helpful as well. I especially like and appreciate your detailed response, Mark Hollis. It works for my brain.

Were the majority of the folks responding in this thread, taught Nerve Flossing / Neural Glide as a particular concept in your formal education? Was it described this way? Or is this something each of you found later on once in practice and searching for more input?

Great thread (for me at least)!
Curious One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2012, 08:51 PM   #22
pedspainphysio
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 101
Thanks: 17
Thanked 60 Times in 14 Posts
Default

"Is my patient more empowered with respect to their pain problem than before I treated them?"

I will use this in every teaching opportunity that I have from this point forward... nice.

Thanks John.

Mike
pedspainphysio is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to pedspainphysio For This Useful Post:
Curious One (30-10-2012)
Old 30-10-2012, 08:54 PM   #23
Bas Asselbergs
Physiotherapist
 
Bas Asselbergs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 4,725
Thanks: 2,122
Thanked 1,647 Times in 715 Posts
Default

Butler's course in 1998 in Toronto brought this to my attention first. I think he called the neural "mobs": tensioners and sliders.
I really have not heard of any uni teaching this as core material. Sad as that is.
__________________
We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais Nin
I suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

We don't need a body to feel a body. Ronald Melzack
Bas Asselbergs is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Bas Asselbergs For This Useful Post:
Curious One (30-10-2012)
Old 30-10-2012, 09:01 PM   #24
John W
"Mean Poopy-Pants" Club Founding Member
 
John W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mandeville, LA
Age: 50
Posts: 6,348
Thanks: 1,935
Thanked 3,348 Times in 1,299 Posts
Default

I learned moving nerves like electrical cords during my post-grad residency in 1997-8. I don't recall any exposure to the concept of nerve gliding, tensioning, or neurodynamics during PT school (93-94), unless you include learning the passive SLR test for lumbar radiculopathy.
__________________
John Ware, PT
Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists
"Nothing can bring a man peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W. Emerson
“If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot
be carried on to success.” -The Analects of Confucius, Book 13, Verse 3
John W is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to John W For This Useful Post:
Curious One (30-10-2012)
Old 30-10-2012, 10:12 PM   #25
Curious One
Senior Member
 
Curious One's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Texas
Age: 47
Posts: 464
Thanks: 659
Thanked 234 Times in 165 Posts
Default

This looks like a useful link. It's 9 pages in length.


Manual Therapy 13 (2008) 213–221

Original article

Do ‘sliders’ slide and ‘tensioners’ tension? An analysis of neurodynamic techniques and considerations regarding their application

Michel W. Coppieters a,b,, David S. Butler b
a
Division of Physiotherapy, School of Health and Rehabilitation Sciences, The University of Queensland, QLD 4072, St. Lucia Brisbane, Australia
b
Neuro-Orthopaedic Institute, 19 North Street, Adelaide 5000, Australia
Received 7 April 2006; received in revised form 8 December 2006; accepted 15 December 2006


Referenced here in the SS Forums (I didn't realize this until I was searching another thread): Do 'sliders' slide and 'tensioners' tension? An analysis of neurodynamic techniques...
.

Last edited by Curious One; 30-10-2012 at 10:46 PM. Reason: - Originally located the info somewhere online... added SS link
Curious One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2012, 10:37 PM   #26
Curious One
Senior Member
 
Curious One's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Texas
Age: 47
Posts: 464
Thanks: 659
Thanked 234 Times in 165 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John W View Post
CO,
Do a Pubmed search for Coppieters MW for research articles investigating neurodynamics.
I didn't get over to PubMed yet, but I did run across this in the SS forums. Adding it for future reference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Rickards View Post
Here's a few that come up without trying too hard-

Cleland JA, Childs JD, Palmer JA, Eberhart S.
Slump stretching in the management of non-radicular low back pain: a pilot clinical trial.
Man Ther. 2006 Nov;11(4):279-86. Epub 2005 Dec 27.

George SZ.
Characteristics of patients with lower extremity symptoms treated with slump stretching: a case series.
J Orthop Sports Phys Ther. 2002 Aug;32(8):391-8.

Majlesi J, Togay H, Unalan H, Toprak S.
The sensitivity and specificity of the Slump and the Straight Leg Raising tests in patients with lumbar disc herniation.
J Clin Rheumatol. 2008 Apr;14(2):87-91.

Fernández-de-Las-Peñas C, Coppieters MW, Cuadrado ML, Pareja JA.
Patients with chronic tension-type headache demonstrate increased
mechano-sensitivity of the supra-orbital nerve.
Headache. 2008 Apr;48(4):570-7.

Alshami AM, Babri AS, Souvlis T, Coppieters MW.
Biomechanical evaluation of two clinical tests for plantar heel pain: the
dorsiflexion-eversion test for tarsal tunnel syndrome and the windlass test for
plantar fasciitis.
Foot Ankle Int. 2007 Apr;28(4):499-505.

Coppieters MW, Alshami AM.
Longitudinal excursion and strain in the median nerve during novel nerve gliding
exercises for carpal tunnel syndrome.
J Orthop Res. 2007 Jul;25(7):972-80.

Alshami AM, Souvlis T, Coppieters MW.
A review of plantar heel pain of neural origin: differential diagnosis and
management.
Man Ther. 2008 May;13(2):103-11. Epub 2007 Mar 30. Review.

Coppieters MW, Butler DS.
Do 'sliders' slide and 'tensioners' tension? An analysis of neurodynamic
techniques and considerations regarding their application.
Man Ther. 2008 Jun;13(3):213-21. Epub 2007 Mar 30.

Butler DS, Coppieters MW.
Neurodynamics in a broader perspective.
Man Ther. 2007 Feb;12(1):e7-8.

Coppieters MW, Alshami AM, Hodges PW.
An experimental pain model to investigate the specificity of the neurodynamic
test for the median nerve in the differential diagnosis of hand symptoms.
Arch Phys Med Rehabil. 2006 Oct;87(10):1412-7.

Babbage CS, Coppieters MW, McGowan CM.
Strain and excursion of the sciatic nerve in the dog: biomechanical
considerations in the development of a clinical test for increased neural
mechanosensitivity.
Vet J. 2007 Sep;174(2):330-6. Epub 2006 Aug 17.

Coppieters MW, Alshami AM, Babri AS, Souvlis T, Kippers V, Hodges PW.
Strain and excursion of the sciatic, tibial, and plantar nerves during a modified
straight leg raising test.
J Orthop Res. 2006 Sep;24(9):1883-9.

Coppieters MW.
Shoulder restraints as a potential cause for stretch neuropathies: biomechanical
support for the impact of shoulder girdle depression and arm abduction on nerve
strain.
Anesthesiology. 2006 Jun;104(6):1351-2. No abstract available.

Coppieters MW, Kurz K, Mortensen TE, Richards NL, Skaret IA, McLaughlin LM,
Hodges PW.
The impact of neurodynamic testing on the perception of experimentally induced
muscle pain.
Man Ther. 2005 Feb;10(1):52-60.

Coppieters MW, Bartholomeeusen KE, Stappaerts KH.
Incorporating nerve-gliding techniques in the conservative treatment of cubital
tunnel syndrome.
J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 2004 Nov-Dec;27(9):560-8.

Coppieters MW, Stappaerts KH, Wouters LL, Janssens K.
The immediate effects of a cervical lateral glide treatment technique in patients
with neurogenic cervicobrachial pain.
J Orthop Sports Phys Ther. 2003 Jul;33(7):369-78.

Coppieters MW, Stappaerts KH, Wouters LL, Janssens K.
Aberrant protective force generation during neural provocation testing and the
effect of treatment in patients with neurogenic cervicobrachial pain.
J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 2003 Feb;26(2):99-106.

Coppieters M, Stappaerts K, Janssens K, Jull G.
Reliability of detecting 'onset of pain' and 'submaximal pain' during neural
provocation testing of the upper quadrant.
Physiother Res Int. 2002;7(3):146-56. Erratum in: Physiother Res Int.
2002;7(4):following 250.

Coppieters MW, Butler DS.
In defense of neural mobilization: Part two.
J Orthop Sports Phys Ther. 2002 Mar;32(3):125-6. No abstract available.

Coppieters MW, Van de Velde M, Stappaerts KH.
Positioning in anesthesiology: toward a better understanding of stretch-induced
perioperative neuropathies.
Anesthesiology. 2002 Jul;97(1):75-81.

Coppieters MW, Butler DS.
In defense of neural mobilization.
J Orthop Sports Phys Ther. 2001 Sep;31(9):520-1; author reply 522. No abstract
available.

Coppieters MW, Stappaerts KH, Staes FF, Everaert DG.
Shoulder girdle elevation during neurodynamic testing: an assessable sign?
Man Ther. 2001 May;6(2):88-96.

Coppieters MW, Stappaerts KH, Everaert DG, Staes FF.
Addition of test components during neurodynamic testing: effect on range of
motion and sensory responses.
J Orthop Sports Phys Ther. 2001 May;31(5):226-35; discussion 236-7.

Coppieters MW, Stappaerts KH, Everaert DG, Staes FF.
A qualitative assessment of shoulder girdle elevation during the upper limb
tension test 1.
Man Ther. 1999 Feb;4(1):33-8.

And, a link to Michel W. Coppieters within the SS forums.


.

Last edited by Curious One; 30-10-2012 at 10:51 PM. Reason: - added another SS link.
Curious One is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Curious One For This Useful Post:
Diane (30-10-2012), Tirving (31-10-2012)
Old 30-10-2012, 10:48 PM   #27
Curious One
Senior Member
 
Curious One's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Texas
Age: 47
Posts: 464
Thanks: 659
Thanked 234 Times in 165 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bas Asselbergs View Post
Butler's course in 1998 in Toronto brought this to my attention first. I think he called the neural "mobs": tensioners and sliders.
I really have not heard of any uni teaching this as core material. Sad as that is.
I located a thread here on SS which mentions neural "mobs" and a few other things. Adding it as a reference for this thread. Neural Dynamic Exercises






And, a few other useful links:.

Last edited by Curious One; 26-09-2014 at 05:48 PM. Reason: - add useful SS forum links / added another link
Curious One is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Curious One For This Useful Post:
Tord (31-10-2012)
Old 31-10-2012, 04:13 AM   #28
Mark Hollis
Senior Moment
 
Mark Hollis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Age: 41
Posts: 507
Thanks: 368
Thanked 626 Times in 256 Posts
Default

I learnt after Uni graduation, however that was last century (), at a Butler course. Can't recommend one of his course more highly.

When discussing with clients I quite often use the analogy of a garden hose that runs around a house (I work out of town) and you're at one end pulling on it and it doesn't seem to move as well as you think it should. You can't see the hose (because it's inside your body) however you can imagine how it could be caught on a corner, it could be snagged on a bush, it could be running through some wet mud that creates extra drag or the reason it doesn't seem to move as well as you think it should could be because you just haven't moved this particular hose for a while and you've forgotten what it feels like to move hoses. As you can't go around the house checking every inch of the hose to see what 'the cause/s' of this change is, the easiest way is to stop pulling on it like you have been doing and maybe trying sliding/pulling a few areas of it at a time and then see afterwards if it seems to move better than before.

It's a limited analogy but sometimes it seems to get the response.

Thanks for putting this all together in a thread Curious One!
__________________
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." ("Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.“) Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus Ludwig Wittgenstein
Question your tea spoons. Georges Perec
Mark Hollis is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Mark Hollis For This Useful Post:
Curious One (31-10-2012)
Old 31-10-2012, 05:35 AM   #29
ginger
sproinger
 
ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: melbourne australia
Age: 62
Posts: 667
Thanks: 19
Thanked 66 Times in 37 Posts
Default

Curious one,
For "flossing", just think passive limb movements while thinking "I'm flossing".
Butler has coined a term for what we had been doing for years , but had left out the correct thoughts.
__________________
vox clamantis in deserto

Geoff Fisher
Physiotherapist
ginger is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ginger For This Useful Post:
Curious One (31-10-2012)
Old 31-10-2012, 05:49 AM   #30
nari
NeuroNut Evangelist
 
nari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: ACT Aust
Posts: 8,786
Thanks: 2,186
Thanked 668 Times in 475 Posts
Default

C'mon, ginger.

What sort of passive movements do you mean? Any at all or specific to the nerves?
What would you see your patient doing at home between sessions with PT?

Nari
nari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-10-2012, 07:42 AM   #31
PatrickL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,441
Thanks: 889
Thanked 1,226 Times in 459 Posts
Default

Quote:
Were the majority of the folks responding in this thread, taught Nerve Flossing / Neural Glide as a particular concept in your formal education? Was it described this way? Or is this something each of you found later on once in practice and searching for more input?
hi CO. we were taught to assess for 'neural tension' biasing radial, ulnar and median nerves. similar teaching for lower limb biasing peroneal/tibial nerves. We were then taught to use these positions for repetitive 'mobs', tensioners' and/or 'sliders'.

we were never taught to consider that all movement involves neural flossing/sliding etc, which i think is massive shame. The concept of neural tension and treatment with flossing/mobs was taught to us from a purely bottom up nociceptive perspective.

Quote:
Butler has coined a term for what we had been doing for years , but had left out the correct thoughts.
hi ginger, what are the correct thoughts?
PatrickL is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to PatrickL For This Useful Post:
Curious One (31-10-2012)
Old 31-10-2012, 05:14 PM   #32
student
Senior Member
 
student's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Stuart, FL
Posts: 262
Thanks: 29
Thanked 21 Times in 18 Posts
Default

FWIW we covered the idea of neurodynamics in a couple classes.

David Butler has a few interviews that he did where he discusses these ideas. I forget the link but if I find them I will post up. Was probably on one of the Australian based pod casts.
__________________
Scot Morrison
Student Physical Therapist
Certified Strength & Conditioning Specialist
- @Scotmorrsn - Twitter -
student is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2012, 04:28 AM   #33
ginger
sproinger
 
ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: melbourne australia
Age: 62
Posts: 667
Thanks: 19
Thanked 66 Times in 37 Posts
Default

No idea Patrick, Haven't had any correct thoughts for years.

Nari, can you tell me of any movements that are not "specific to nerves" ?
__________________
vox clamantis in deserto

Geoff Fisher
Physiotherapist
ginger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2012, 04:45 AM   #34
Diane
Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroelastician
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 23,374
Thanks: 3,456
Thanked 6,733 Times in 3,039 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickL View Post
hi CO. we were taught to assess for 'neural tension' biasing radial, ulnar and median nerves. similar teaching for lower limb biasing peroneal/tibial nerves. We were then taught to use these positions for repetitive 'mobs', tensioners' and/or 'sliders'.

we were never taught to consider that all movement involves neural flossing/sliding etc, which i think is massive shame. The concept of neural tension and treatment with flossing/mobs was taught to us from a purely bottom up nociceptive perspective.
Most of the cutaneous nerves were ignored. As if they didn't exist. But for sure, I started to think about nothing but nerves after Butler.
__________________
Diane
www.dermoneuromodulation.com
SensibleSolutionsPhysiotherapy
HumanAntiGravitySuit blog
Neurotonics PT Teamblog
Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division (Archived newsletters, paincasts)
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Pain Science Division Facebook page
@PainPhysiosCan
WCPT PhysiotherapyPainNetwork on Facebook
@WCPTPTPN
Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page

@dfjpt
SomaSimple on Facebook
@somasimple

"Rene Descartes was very very smart, but as it turned out, he was wrong." ~Lorimer Moseley

“Comment is free, but the facts are sacred.” ~Charles Prestwich Scott, nephew of founder and editor (1872-1929) of The Guardian , in a 1921 Centenary editorial

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth

"Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one."~Voltaire
Diane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2012, 05:45 AM   #35
nari
NeuroNut Evangelist
 
nari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: ACT Aust
Posts: 8,786
Thanks: 2,186
Thanked 668 Times in 475 Posts
Default

Yes, Butler takes the credit when it comes to considering how crucial nerves are to manual therapy.

Ginger,
Dozens of movements are non-specific. Which is why one has to know the nervous system's geography and learn it. Essential for the UL and LL...

Nari
nari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2012, 04:39 AM   #36
ginger
sproinger
 
ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: melbourne australia
Age: 62
Posts: 667
Thanks: 19
Thanked 66 Times in 37 Posts
Default

Just one movement Nari, can you tell me which movement of the human body is not also a movement of a specific nerve. Just one will do.
Obvious answer , there isn't one Nari. All movements are also movements of those structures, vessels and nerves contained within the limb or trunk. The point being, why not just say passive movements, rather than using a new term, derived from the somewhat awkward notion that something else is happening to nerves when "flossing" that was not already happening when doing passive movements. It's a terminology issue aimed at satisfying those who believe there are specific identifiable differences between the same phenomena when named differently. ( hint, there aren't )
__________________
vox clamantis in deserto

Geoff Fisher
Physiotherapist
ginger is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ginger For This Useful Post:
physio84 (04-11-2012)
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ref Neurodynamic evaluation of the sciatic nerve during neural mobilisation Neurophile General Discussion 0 09-07-2012 08:45 AM
New Painless Cervical Nerve Root Mobilisations: taking tension off the system for nerve root pain I Robot The Wind Rose 0 03-07-2008 06:40 PM
Upper Quadrant Neural Glide Technique emad Try it, Use it or Lose it! 6 09-02-2006 09:54 PM


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SomaSimple © 2004 - 2014