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#51 | |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroplastician
![]() ![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 10,193
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P 1303 Gray's:
Quote:
Next, the thoracic part of the sympathetic system.
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Diane HumanAntiGravitySuit blog; Neurotonics PT Teamblog; Diane Jacobs.com; Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth Last edited by Diane; 18-06-2006 at 02:05 AM. |
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#52 | |
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Junior Member
![]() Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 27
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Quote:
Saying that, I'm not a manipulation fanatic. |
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#53 |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroplastician
![]() ![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 10,193
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Alea, let me be clear that when I used the term "manipulation" I was referring to HVLA thrust type cracking. I'm not at all opposed to "handling" of the neck. I understand reflexive treatment fairly well, I think. Thank you for your input.
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Diane HumanAntiGravitySuit blog; Neurotonics PT Teamblog; Diane Jacobs.com; Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth |
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#54 |
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Writer and Clinician
![]() Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Age: 58
Posts: 5,133
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Diane,
I think the work you've done here should be required reading in every PT program. In my experience, (years of that every day) manipulation doesn't result in much of anything - no increase in range, no change in symptoms. Every once in a great while people would be briefly better, sometimes worse. There was no predicting any of this. There's a discussion on RE about the persistance of symtomotology after "whiplash." Various studies indicate that these aren't just driven by financial considerations. It seems that the anatomical reality of the region and its connection to the possibility of physiologic irritation is something that should always be considered. It seems to me that the neck's typical lack of response to manipulation is a testament to its adaptability. |
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#55 | |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroplastician
![]() ![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 10,193
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The neck is an interesting place
1. with all this essential wiring to vital food intake structures and airways and balance/equilibrium function; 2. vital tubing (vessels) and cord (to rest of body); 3. given the fact that embryologically the diaphragm and heart start out in there and that maybe part of the brain still thinks they are in there; 4. given the fact that even if it is strained, say in a whiplash accident, it still has to support the head? i.e., no way to rest it other than lay it down, or immobilize it in a collar (shown to be couterproductive for all sorts of reasons); 5. given the above, is it any wonder the brain may feel more greatly threatened when the neck is injured in, say, whiplash, in terms of a persistent pain state in the neck representation, than if, say, in a knee representation if a knee is dinged on the dashboard in the same accident? Anyway, moving on to another interesting bit: P. 1303, Gray's: Quote:
"(Ooh! Uh! ooh! uh!) Hey don't you know.. That's the sound of the men.. Working on the chain... Ganglia.."
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Diane HumanAntiGravitySuit blog; Neurotonics PT Teamblog; Diane Jacobs.com; Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth Last edited by Diane; 20-06-2006 at 03:55 AM. |
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#56 | |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroplastician
![]() ![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 10,193
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P 1304 Gray's:
Quote:
Next, pelvic part of the sympathetics.
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Diane HumanAntiGravitySuit blog; Neurotonics PT Teamblog; Diane Jacobs.com; Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth |
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#57 |
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NeuroNut Evangelist
![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: ACT Aust
Posts: 6,097
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Yep, it certainly sounds likely that skin contact--> autonomic activity is logical. Could be hard to disprove...
Nari |
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#58 | ||
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroplastician
![]() ![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 10,193
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P. 1305 Gray's:
Quote:
Quote:
The previous order was according to tissue systems; musculoskeletal, thoracic organs, GI tract etc.. Yeah, Gray's really did use the word "whence." Even in 1995. That is not a typo. The big takeaway point for me is all the sympathetic fibres in the regular nerves. It has got to feel good (everywhere) to get them liberated from the surrounding mesoderm within the leg.. Next, plexuses in the thoracic, abdominal and pelvic cavities.
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Diane HumanAntiGravitySuit blog; Neurotonics PT Teamblog; Diane Jacobs.com; Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth |
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#59 | |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroplastician
![]() ![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 10,193
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P 1306, Gray's
Quote:
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Diane HumanAntiGravitySuit blog; Neurotonics PT Teamblog; Diane Jacobs.com; Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth |
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#60 | |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroplastician
![]() ![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 10,193
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P 1306 Gray's
Quote:
Something I'd like to accomplish one fine day is to learn to (confidently) visualize the difference between white and grey rami communicantes without all that complex wiring and function blurring together in my mind.
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Diane HumanAntiGravitySuit blog; Neurotonics PT Teamblog; Diane Jacobs.com; Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth |
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#61 | |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroplastician
![]() ![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 10,193
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P 1307 Gray's:
Quote:
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Diane HumanAntiGravitySuit blog; Neurotonics PT Teamblog; Diane Jacobs.com; Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth |
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#62 | |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroplastician
![]() ![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 10,193
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Quote:
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Diane HumanAntiGravitySuit blog; Neurotonics PT Teamblog; Diane Jacobs.com; Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth |
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#63 | |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroplastician
![]() ![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 10,193
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P. 1308 Gray's
Quote:
Enjoy. I'm back in this post to announce that I found a small author error in the link I've placed here. On page 2 of 12, the author says (about visceral afferents) "These fibres, originating within the spinal cord, accompany visceral efferent fibres throughout their pathways." I'm here to say, that visceral afferent fibres do NOT originate within the spinal cord; rather they are from neural crest and therefore are more likely to "originate" as part of DRGs, same as all the rest of the sensory system. Only motor fibres originate in the cord. At least that's how I understand origins based on embryology.
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Diane HumanAntiGravitySuit blog; Neurotonics PT Teamblog; Diane Jacobs.com; Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth Last edited by Diane; 23-06-2006 at 03:36 PM. |
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#64 | |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroplastician
![]() ![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 10,193
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P 1309, Gray's
Quote:
I'll slowly bring more here from Burnstock's books, etc. Plese feel free to add material or links you might find on autonomics to this thread.
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Diane HumanAntiGravitySuit blog; Neurotonics PT Teamblog; Diane Jacobs.com; Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth |
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#65 |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroplastician
![]() ![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 10,193
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My copy of The Integrative Action of the Autonomic Nervous System: Neurobiology of Homeostasis by Wilfred Jänig, arrived yesterday. It's nearly brand new, only published this past June. Also quite reasonable as textbooks go, well under $200.
Chapter 4 alone is worth the price. It is titled The Peripheral Sympathetic and Parasympathetic Pathways, and contains 8 "sub"chapters, listed here:
I have only browsed so far, but already I'm liking this book more than the Burnstock series on the ANS.. Burnstock simply provided within the covers of each of his books a bunch of already published studies. As an editor he did no editing at all, just collecting and re-publishing. And each book in the series (about a dozen books) cost as least as much as this one. Janig takes the time to actually sit and synthesize everything. He does not predigest it at all but puts it through his mental blender a bit first, at least. And he's very careful to keep his own speculations separate from what's "known", plus at the end he has a very comprehensive list of what is not yet known. I think I can trust this book. And as a humble human primate social groomer I very much appreciate that he's done some of the mental map making for me.
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Diane HumanAntiGravitySuit blog; Neurotonics PT Teamblog; Diane Jacobs.com; Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth Last edited by Diane; 28-11-2006 at 08:45 PM. |
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#66 | |
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Human Primate Social Groomer and Neuroplastician
![]() ![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weyburn Sask.
Posts: 10,193
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Here is a short excerpt from Jänig's book, based on this article:
Quote:
1. Type one is stress induced by forces supplied directly from the environment. The creature is fully capable of pressing back as a living organism - responding powerfully, integrally, with the fullest of uninhibited responses. 2. Type two is stress induced by an environment that includes not only a metaphoric "rock" but also a "hard place". The creature has to be politically wise - it can't just rush to meet adversity with all its might, or run from it, instead it has to consider the "cost/benefit" of its response, and respond in some manner that costs personally/physiologically but won't rock the social fabric. As a human primate social groomer, I think one of the biggest services I can provide is (a) a safe place in which patients can experience their own interoception and subsequent autonomic correction; and (b) some exteroceptively provided manual input to get (a) started. Much more about this book can be read here.
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Diane HumanAntiGravitySuit blog; Neurotonics PT Teamblog; Diane Jacobs.com; Canadian Physiotherapy Pain Science Division Neuroscience and Pain Science for Manual PTs Facebook page “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists" ~Roland Barth Last edited by Diane; 26-01-2007 at 05:27 PM. |
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#67 | |
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Member
![]() Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Burley, Idaho
Posts: 50
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Diane,
Quote:
Gee what a surprise, This is the main topic of the postural respiration course. Yes we do consider and express mesurements in terms of mesoderm, but I have been trying to tell you all that we are considering the importance of respiration and its effects on "mesodermal posture (function)", but more importantly on the autonomic nervous system and how it influences all systems, including ganglia etc.. |
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#68 |
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Chronic Chrawler
![]() Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NB
Age: 64
Posts: 787
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Raulan2
I found your comment today as I was going through the old threads on ANS. Some French posters keep mentioning Janig but never bring any quotes from his writings. Now I can see why he is so important. This is probably what was missing from the theory in Souchard's RPG. I have not found any mention of autonomics on the RP (Mezieres) site so far. Mary
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Guess learning is a lifestyle, not a passtime. Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. ~ Isaac Asimov |
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