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Old 12-04-2012, 07:43 PM   #1
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Default Feedback on "Active Therapeutic Movements" device ..

Does anyone have lots of experience with a device called ATM2?

There was a thread started by Diane on it, hardly any research out there about it but I wanted to hear from clinicians that actually use it in practice.

This promotional email gives more details.

Quote:
Hey XXXXX,

I hope all is going well since we last spoke. I'd really love to hear from you.


In the mean time, in case you are not updated with the most recent ATM2 story, here it is; however, this is not the full story, as the ATM2 has many facets, due to it's simple yet advanced capability to immediately alter CNS muscle activation patterns on the automatic level. My hope is that the information in this e-mail will re-kindle your interest to learn more about this unique concept, with the possibility of maybe integrating it into your practice at your suitable time. So please do not hesitate to telephone me anytime during which time I will gladly answer any question you may have.

Following are the specific outcomes you can expect with the ATM® Concept and ATM2® device.

For pain patients (chronic & acute) you can expect:

  • Pain elimination while on the ATM2, followed by
  • 50%-100% lasting pain relief and/or increase in pain-free ROM immediately after the session,
  • Suitable for almost all common back, neck, shoulder, pelvis, hip, and knee pain patients.

For performance enhancement you can expect:
  • Lasting, consistent, immediate, and predictable increase in range of motion with no end range, risk prone movements.
  • Possible immediate increase in strength, not due to muscle strengthening which takes significant time and effort to achieve, but rather due to an optimization in muscle activation patterns that occur on the automatic level as is consistently evidenced by use of sEMG devices.
  • Suitable for everyone, without age limitation, and almost without regard to health condition.

For Posture Patients you can expect:
  • Immediate, consistent, and predictable improvement in posture on the automatic level.
  • No need to "teach" good posture. With the ATM2 it happens automatically, due to its simple, yet advance capability to alter CNS muscle activation patterns on the automatic level.
  • Normalizes forward head position, rolled shoulders, and pelvis position.

For Scoliosis Patients you can expect:
  • Many different physical therapy treatments have been utilized to treat scoliosis including electrical muscle stimulation, bracing, various exercise programs, and manipulation among others. Unfortunately these have not been found to be very effective treatments for scoliosis.
  • Clinical evidence has been documented for the efficacy of the ATM2™ when used with patients who have LBP, hip problems, shoulder problems and cervical problems.
  • The ATM2™ was also found to be effective in helping to reverse the curves in a patient with scoliosis who was actually being treated for a frozen shoulder in a recently published case study. [5]
  • The results of an ongoing study have been quite promising that the ATM2™ is effective in not only helping to decrease pain and increase range of motion (ROM) but also significantly improve the posture and appearance of the spine in one who has scoliosis.




XXXXX:
  • There is no other technique, device, concept or educator that offers outcomes even remotely near what is described above, let alone such specific, immediate, consistent, predictable and significant outcomes.
  • We do so with total confidence!
  • We even guarantee it! (just ask about our unprecedented & indefinitely-extendable guarantees)

Here is what we tell pain patients (chronic & acute) that call us for help:

  • If movement aggravates your pain, then most likely the ATM2® will help. Once the clinician identifies what movement aggravates your pain, he or she will set you up on the ATM2® such that your pain is eliminated. Yes, I mean eliminated. Full range of motion without any pain while on the ATM2®. This should not take more than just a few minutes to achieve. Once the pain is eliminated, you will be instructed to do specific, totally pain-free exercises while you're on the ATM2®. This should not take more than about one minute. After this you will be released from the ATM2® , and immediately reevaluated. If all went well, at this time, the clinician will be expecting, based on his or her experience, 50%-100% pain relief and or increase in your pain-free range of motion. Please keep in mind that this is not a miracle cure, although it does work with almost all common back, neck, shoulder, knee, pelvis and hip movement related pain.
  • So, if you want to tell your patients the same, then just telephone me, and I'll gladly tell you how easy it is to join the thousands of ATM2 trained practitioners, and of course answer any of your questions or concerns.
  • I am 100% certain that we will totally exceed your expectations! With our indefinitely-extendable guarantee, you are assured of this.
  • So please just call me directly at (408)730-1111 x812 or toll-free at (888)470-8100.

Finally, here is an example of just one unsolicited e-mail from an ATM2 clinician: (his name, city & state are listed, so you can be assured that he is real)

What can I say except WOW! I've been using the ATM2 since the middle of May and it absolutely blows me away. It far exceeds the expectations that I had. When I opened the crate to assemble it I was immediately impressed with how well it was constructed and the strength of the materials used. I definitely felt there was equal value for the price of the unit.

I'm a Chiropractor and I've been in practice for 32 years. The "Holy Grail" if you will is to be able to get patients out of pain IMMEDIATELY, that's the goal. I think that's what we're all after. The ATM2 if not the holy grail it's the closest thing to it that I've come across so far. When a patient qualifies to have the ATM treatment both they and I are amazed at how much better they are immediately after the treatment. The knowledge gained from the training you supply and the consistent results I've obtained in the past few months has instilled a level of confidence in me that I've never experienced before.

I've cared for patients with scoliosis and had a 10% reduction of the curve in 6 weeks. A ninety year old who responded after just one treatment for low back pain "fantastic" and I've had other patients refer to it as the "miracle machine". When the ATM2 concepts are applied properly by a doctor or technician, to a patient who needs this specific therapy then you have magic.

Steve, what is also incredibly refreshing is the honesty and integrity you convey. That's unusual in our world today. You are approachable and make the purchase and training for the ATM easy and you offer a guarantees. Obviously you are a man of your word and stand behind what you're doing. I look forward to continuing our relationship in the future.

Dr. Gary Goodmark, D.C., Wyckoff, NJ (2008)



Thank you XXXXX for your time reading this e-mail. I really do hope to hear back from you while this is still hot in your mind, so please just call me.

Thanks again,


Steve.


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Old 12-04-2012, 08:21 PM   #2
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Mark, I do not have any experience with using ATM2. But I am experienced to their marketing as I have received info as well. I am always a bit worried when there is more marketing then research to back something up.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:47 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by zimney3pt View Post
Mark, I do not have any experience with using ATM2. But I am experienced to their marketing as I have received info as well. I am always a bit worried when there is more marketing then research to back something up.
Me to and we all know there is hype with sales.

Never the less, I thought some would have good experience with using the device.

If not then what do you make of the statements in that email? Kind of makes sense and Diane has her rational for the belting part of it.

BTW, according to the manufacturer, the belts can strap you in very tight and have made some pass out.

I've tried the device, it didn't work on me but it is suppose to work well when you have a movement direction that decreases (or increases) pain. I don't have much of that.

Also, the way you active muscles is in the previously painful (before strapping in) direction and these are (non-painful) very short arc or isometric contractions. The graphic video of the device is a bit misleading in that regard.

An affect that I experienced is "straightening up my stooped posture" temporarily after a session without any sense of muscle use on my part. It feels easier to stand afterward AND the room gets brighter sometimes. Apparently that's a fairly common effect. I've done this to myself at the gym with a lat pull down machine if used in a certain way ... occasionally. I'm not saying there is much clinical relevance to this but just making note of it.

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Old 12-04-2012, 09:00 PM   #4
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The categories of patients this is supposed be so good for:
Quote:
"For Posture Patients you can expect:"
What the hell is a "posture patient"? If there is any mention of "bad" posture needing correction, it flies in the face of research and is a bogus claim.

The benefits are extensively listed, but not a single mention is made of HOW this unit accomplishes those outcomes. No mention of what the retention of the "improved posture" or conditions is.
Steep claims - no studies. No question that placebo will a big player in this application - and for some: the novelty of the motion will be truly helpful for at least a while.
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Old 13-04-2012, 04:24 AM   #5
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The categories of patients this is supposed be so good for:
What the hell is a "posture patient"? If there is any mention of "bad" posture needing correction, it flies in the face of research and is a bogus claim.

The benefits are extensively listed, but not a single mention is made of HOW this unit accomplishes those outcomes. No mention of what the retention of the "improved posture" or conditions is.
Steep claims - no studies. No question that placebo will a big player in this application - and for some: the novelty of the motion will be truly helpful for at least a while.
If you mean by "novelty of the motion" a reduction in perceived threat to movement in a previously painful direction then I would agree that it could do that. It maybe that adjusting belts to make a previously painful movement or contraction non-painful helps and then the repeated contractions do possibly something additional.
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Old 13-04-2012, 06:19 AM   #6
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Yes, from what little I do know about it from the web site and the demo info shared. I would say it has some good placebo behind it when presented as such - "Big fancy machine that is the Holy Grail". Does allow for novel movement and if pain free with movement that is a good thing and should provide with some good descending inhibition for future movements. The skin contact with the belts might also be providing some appropriate sensory input to assist as well.
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Old 15-04-2012, 05:35 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by zimney3pt View Post
Yes, from what little I do know about it from the web site and the demo info shared. I would say it has some good placebo behind it when presented as such - "Big fancy machine that is the Holy Grail". Does allow for novel movement and if pain free with movement that is a good thing and should provide with some good descending inhibition for future movements. The skin contact with the belts might also be providing some appropriate sensory input to assist as well.
When you say "placebo" you seem to just mean expectation on the part of the patient before use of the device.

However, there is also another way to get "placebos" through conditioning. In other words the movements or muscle contractions, in a more or less functional position on the device, that were previously painful now are not painful. Repeat this "move/no-pain", "move/no-pain" over and over again and get a "learned" or "classical" conditioning response. This then gets reinforced with successive visits.

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Old 15-04-2012, 09:28 PM   #8
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If I were, in hopes of a cure, strapped to a machine , and then directed to perform some kind of movement or contraction, then I think the procedure would have my full attention. The staging would set me up to be impressed, and perhaps it's going to convince my brain to reasses the perceived level of threat. It's not going to effect my scolios which stopped progressing in my early teens, and barring osteoporosis isn't expected to progress. If they are selling a product that can address such a diverse number of "diagnoses", I'm doubtful that it can do much of anything except occupy space.

Geralyn
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Old 16-04-2012, 12:45 AM   #9
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If I were, in hopes of a cure, strapped to a machine , and then directed to perform some kind of movement or contraction, then I think the procedure would have my full attention. The staging would set me up to be impressed, and perhaps it's going to convince my brain to reasses the perceived level of threat. It's not going to effect my scolios which stopped progressing in my early teens, and barring osteoporosis isn't expected to progress. If they are selling a product that can address such a diverse number of "diagnoses", I'm doubtful that it can do much of anything except occupy space.

Geralyn
I am also more interested in understanding the pain management aspects of the device. Size of the device is probably due to the idea of strapping in a functional position for pain free movements. Can't tell about which if any aspects of scoliosis it could be successfully used with.

Osteoporosis! What do you think about functional back extension movements on it? I've seen some studies in a lying down position.

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Old 16-04-2012, 06:30 PM   #10
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Update my last post and a previous one. I was a bit quick in responding yesterday.

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Old 16-04-2012, 08:35 PM   #11
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Quote:
What do you think about functional back extension movements on it?
I'm wondering how someone would do anything "functional" while strapped to a post.
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Old 16-04-2012, 08:42 PM   #12
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I suppose they could scream for help "functionally", now that I think about it.
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Old 17-04-2012, 03:29 AM   #13
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I'm wondering how someone would do anything "functional" while strapped to a post.
I probably should have said that these movement seem more functional than doing them lying on a floor with or without the use of a big ball. At least that's how this appears to me but I wasn't emphasizing that part as much as the rest.

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Old 17-04-2012, 03:48 AM   #14
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I do "functional" things lying down- ask my wife.

If the point you're trying to make, Mark, is that weight-bearing is more "functional" than non-weight-bearing, then I would only agree with that if the patient is actually performing a movement in weight-bearing like, say, walking, for instance.

Otherwise, I'm not sure what you mean by "functional" and I'm even more confused by the term "more functional".
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Old 17-04-2012, 04:02 AM   #15
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I do "functional" things lying down- ask my wife.

If the point you're trying to make, Mark, is that weight-bearing is more "functional" than non-weight-bearing, then I would only agree with that if the patient is actually performing a movement in weight-bearing like, say, walking, for instance.

Otherwise, I'm not sure what you mean by "functional" and I'm even more confused by the term "more functional".
Yes, that's fine.
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Old 17-04-2012, 04:14 AM   #16
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What's fine?
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Old 17-04-2012, 06:31 PM   #17
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NSCA recently had an essay on doing isolation movements. Opposite of functional. There does seem to be some use for them in sport, anyway. e.g. seated heel raises (solus not gasroc) for improving the verticle jump.
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Old 21-04-2012, 03:06 AM   #18
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If I were, in hopes of a cure, strapped to a machine , and then directed to perform some kind of movement or contraction, then I think the procedure would have my full attention. The staging would set me up to be impressed, and perhaps it's going to convince my brain to reasses the perceived level of threat. It's not going to effect my scolios which stopped progressing in my early teens, and barring osteoporosis isn't expected to progress. If they are selling a product that can address such a diverse number of "diagnoses", I'm doubtful that it can do much of anything except occupy space.

Geralyn
I followed up a bit with ATM2 and the topic of scoliosis. For what it's worth, there is a new book coming out called:

Scoliosis: Causes, Symptoms and Treatment

In it is a chapter on the ATM2:

A New Physical Therapy Intervention for Scoliosis
(Clare Lewis, California State University, Sacramento, California, USA)

We'll have to wait until later this year to see what is being done or do a search on the author and see what has been published.
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Old 21-04-2012, 03:29 AM   #19
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Mark,

I'm still wondering why you seem to think that weight-bearing positions are necessarily more "functional" than non-weight-bearing positions, or if even if that's what you mean.

I've seen this device in action, and I'm unimpressed with it's translation to "functional" movements, which in weight-bearing would be walking, running, doing the hula-hoop (a playful function), or jumping over a water puddle, for example.

Some of the non-weight-bearing functional activities I've done recently:
-changed the oil in my cars
-removed a trailer hitch from my truck
-crawled through a small crawl space in my attic
-took a picture of my neighbor's cat who was hiding in a storm drain (I was lying on my stomach)
-crawled under some bushes to shag some foul balls that had gone over the backstop.

My wife could've told you about all of those... and more.
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Old 21-04-2012, 10:13 PM   #20
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Mark,

I'm still wondering why you seem to think that weight-bearing positions are necessarily more "functional" than non-weight-bearing positions, or if even if that's what you mean.

I've seen this device in action, and I'm unimpressed with it's translation to "functional" movements, which in weight-bearing would be walking, running, doing the hula-hoop (a playful function), or jumping over a water puddle, for example.

Some of the non-weight-bearing functional activities I've done recently:
-changed the oil in my cars
-removed a trailer hitch from my truck
-crawled through a small crawl space in my attic
-took a picture of my neighbor's cat who was hiding in a storm drain (I was lying on my stomach)
-crawled under some bushes to shag some foul balls that had gone over the backstop.

My wife could've told you about all of those... and more.
Yes, that's also fine.
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Old 21-04-2012, 10:36 PM   #21
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Why don't you tell me that you're not interested in what I have to say instead of acting like my 10-year old daughter, who's tired of me critiquing her overhand serve?
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Old 22-04-2012, 08:42 AM   #22
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Why don't you tell me that you're not interested in what I have to say instead of acting like my 10-year old daughter, who's tired of me critiquing her overhand serve?
Your daughter sounds like a nice bright girl. Lucky you.
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Old 22-04-2012, 05:10 PM   #23
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Yes she is, for a 10-year old with a developing prefrontal cortex and the associated lapses of judgment and emotional outbursts associated with that.

What's your excuse?
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Old 22-04-2012, 05:33 PM   #24
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Did I mention that she's just entering puberty? She left a ratty old sweat jacket at the rec. center yesterday, and was still teary-eyed about this morning.

Don't have kids, huh Mark? It doesn't appear that you need them.
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Old 22-04-2012, 06:26 PM   #25
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John,
On this planet the only times we can be considered "non weight bearing" would be while in the air during jumping. If the skin is touching anything, even air, it is gathering sensations to be interpreted by the brain. We function in all positions. I think the functional debate was hashed out on here a while back. Also, aren't we above leaving children out of our "debates"? Even politicians have at least this one rule.
I did have a friend of mine in Connecticut , tell me a few years ago that the ATM did have positive effects on his back patients.
Deb
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Old 22-04-2012, 06:39 PM   #26
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Deb,

I think you're making my point. My understanding of what Mark is suggesting is that this device allows "more functional" movement because the patient is in a standing, weight-bearing position (as opposed to being suspended from the ground, albeit still under gravitional influences). All I was asking was for him to explain why he thought this was "more functional" than the lying or quadruped positions, for instance.

When he got all cutesy with me is when I compared his behavior to that of a 10-year old pubescent girl. I happen to live with one, so I think that adds some weight to my comparison.

BTW, I'm not running for political office here; just asking questions.
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