??? Persistent ankle pain

[John W]

I would be uncomfortable with it...

That makes two of us, ANdy. But I think I'm more uncomfortable with being referred to as a cult follower of a mass murdering psychopath. Yep, I'm definitely more uncomfortable with that.

I'm also not so hip to the sudden outburst of sanctimony claiming to protect us all from woo and anti-science from someone who has over the last 7+ years yet to provide a scintilla of evidence that supports his spine-mashing treatment approach. If this were true, then I'm wondering why Melbourne, Australia is not being regaled as the supreme model of musculoskeletal health in the world.

I'm also wondering why in over 450 postings here, ginger has been "thanked" a grand total of once. Either he's a very lousy messenger or the message is lousy. On any given day, I could go either way.

I make no apologies or explanations for my identification of the obvious deplorable behavior that ginger has displayed during these recent days.

[Randy Dixon]

In reference to nothing but my own thoughts, I have a T-shirt with this written on it:

DON'T TOLERATE INTOLERANCE


I sometimes get thumbs up or comments from people who clearly don't understand why I made it. At its face it is the type of obnoxious self-congratulatory boasting of personal belief that normally causes me to just shake my head, but it presents a paradox, yet also something I believe in. The tension between these two never fails to amuse me.

[TimCocks]

Originally Posted by ginger

hold a person's head expecting to be able to solve a lower limb pain problem?,

I DON"T BELIEVE The head holding tactic is in any way valuable as a means to alter the true course of a lower limb pain problem

I don't reckon you can 'alter the true course' of a "lower limb pain problem" as "lower limb pain problems" don't exist.

The pain isn't IN the lower limb, its an output of the neuroimmune system of the person.

I'm new here, and at risk of getting caught in the middle of what seems to be a long running argument (why??), but this stood out so clearly to me i had to post.

Also, I'd be interested to know what the "true course" of any injury/condition is.

[TimCocks]

Patrick, have you had a look at the person's left/right recognition (laterality)

Maybe check out http://www.noigroup.com/recognise to test this.

The new Graded Motor Imagery book by Butler, Thacker, Beames and Giles is out now...

For a real life story check [URL="http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/the-champion-cyclist-her-mysterious-excruciating-pain-and-her-unconventional-road-to-recovery/story-e6frg8h6-1226305057608"]this

Dave Butler is fond of talking about GMI getting "deep into the neuromatrix", reckon this might be where you need to look/tinker

If you do, let us know how it goes

[TimCocks]

yeah, ok, that last link didn't look so pretty, sorry

Cut and paste perhaps

Will work out the hyperlinking internets thing

[proud]

Ginger,

You are a tough cat to figure. On the one hand I have read from you on numerous occassions that you are in agreement that the nervous system is central to the pain experience. Maybe I need to ask the right questions to you to understand your thought process better:

1) When you agree that the nervous system is central....are you including the brain? Or does nervous system to you only mean it's apparent (to you) ability to produce a 'spinal protective response'?

2) Do you acknowledge the plethora of mounting literature that highlights the role of expectation, beliefs and rituals in creating a 'postive response' to treatment? If so....what does it mean to you? Do you postulate that the positive response gleaned from "woo" treatment is transient and not long lasting?

3) If you see the brain as playing the key role overall ( I'm not sure how you could refute that in the face of the literature out there)....do you suppose that there could be numerous ways to 'resolve' a patients pain complaint?

4) You mentioned cranio-sacral therapy. Do you think patient around the world experience 'relief' with this mode of treatment? If so....why do you suppose that is?

Depending on your responses to the above. I have about two follow up questions for you if you wouldn't mind?

[CDano]

Originally Posted by Diane

This might help..
I hope so, anyway. It's how I treat for persisting pain at the front of the foot, at the bend. (You'll have to enlarge the screenshot to read it probably)

Quick intermission - where is this from?

[Diane]

From my manual. The updated one.

[John W]

I don't reckon you can 'alter the true course' of a "lower limb pain problem" as "lower limb pain problems" don't exist.

Tim has serendipitously identified precisely the kind of blabber that I was referring to with my admittedly spiced up metaphor of ginger's mode of communication (I don't actually think ginger walks on four limbs, howls at the moon, and poops in the woods- at least not most of the time). On first blush it sounds reasonable and even maybe insightful, but when you strip away the ornate diction and try to figure out exactly what he's trying to convey, you realize that it's absolutely meaningless, not to mention totally inconsistent with what we know about the human pain experience.

ginger remains undeterred, however, in his Shakespearian assertions of how the human body works. Well, it doesn't work the way he imagines, it never has, and I've yet to see him bring forward any evidence from any respected pain research that supports his imaginings. And I've been listening to this blabber for over 6 years myself.

I'm also anxiously awaiting the epidemiological data on the statistically significant reduction in persistent pain problems in the environs of Melbourne, Oz where ginger has had such a profound impact. Or, perhaps he can start a thread in the SoS where he can attach these documents from the local health ministry.

[proud]

Oh and Ginger. Since you are seemingly okay with anecdotal discussions, I thought I would relay just one experience of mine that speaks to the lasting effects of some treatments.

Back in my younger days as a new PT soldier attemting the navigate the mindfield of woo woo that exists out there ( I had taken all the way up to E3V3 in the old Canadian version of ortho smoke and mirrors), I had taken to the idea that I could isolate positional faults within the pelvis and often times would discover what I thought were true leg length discrepencies (not apparent)

About 8 years ago, I had one soldier who had been suffering with LBP for over three years. Pretty much unrelenting. He had been treated by numerous providers and by his own admission, I was the first clinician that "really seemed to know what I was talking about" (I still get this comment frequently but now.... I snicker a bit to myself about what it actually means) I spoke confidently (still do) and with authority proclaiming " ah ha....you have one leg longer than the other by over 2.5 cm...has no one ever discovered this previously?"

Away we went....I placed a 1/4 heel lift into his combat boots and three weeks latter, for the first time in three years this soldier had no back pain! What a hero I was....

The story get's interesting from here. 6 years latter (so two years ago)....this soldier returns to me and says he has been deployed twice, and has not had any back pain since. Has been purchasing heel lifts at his own expense ever since but now feels he would like the military to pay to permanently "build" his combat boots with a 1/4" lift on one side....this would just make things easier for him.

Well...in order for the military to agree to this expense they needed gold standard proof of this suppossed "leg length discrepenncy" so they sent him for radiographic analysis.

Low and behold....leg lengths equal....

The patient returns to me and logically asks the question: "why did that work then? I have literally had no pain in 6 years!"

You can imagine the discussion that I had with him. I wonder how you would explain the result to this patient...I know how I did.

Total woo woo....long lasting result. Go figure.

[CDano]

Originally Posted by Diane

From my manual. The updated one.

:self_face_palm

[Diane]

Originally Posted by CDano

:self_face_palm

It's OK, I didn't give the source earlier (I don't think). So, how would you know?
My apologies.

[CDano]

Originally Posted by Diane

It's OK, I didn't give the source earlier (I don't think). So, how would you know?
My apologies.

I'm just looking at the version I have and it's not the same. Similar but different. Mine says rev.3

Have I missed a newer version somehow?

[Diane]

I update it once in awhile.
No, you do not yet have the latest version. I updated it for teaching this year.
It's slowly turning into a real book, which will be for sale if I can ever get around to getting all the permissions I need to get in order to get it published/printed.

[CDano]

That's great news, the sheet you posted looks very professional, would be great to see this turn into a published book.

[amacs]

Do you think it might be possible to desist from this petty personal sniping, it does not add to any discussion, generates ill feeling and does not benefit the wider forum in any way that I can see.

ANdy

[Greg Lehman]

That makes two of us, ANdy. But I think I'm more uncomfortable with being referred to as a cult follower of a mass murdering psychopath. Yep, I'm definitely more uncomfortable with that.


Not related to the ankle but many here took offense with being compared to a mass murderer and his followers yet we often make comments about "drinking the koolaid". Since the koolaid was jones weapon why is this term so readily palatable? Is it the two degrees of separation from Jones himself.

They seem to be both as bad or harmless depending on your view

[Barrett Dorko]

"Drinking the koolaide" is simply a metaphor. Its origins are horrific and complex, bit so are the origins of many others.

Language is like that and no too much should be made of it.

[John W]

The kool-aid reference has become commonplace. Comparing people to Jones, himself- not so much.

Anyway, if you're going to make such a bold comparison, at least back it up with some facts, for cryin' out loud.

[Greg Lehman]

Yes, nice explanation. I can think of many others like when my mother in law calls my kid "little buggers". She was not happy with the definition of buggery.

[John W]

That's an excellent example, Greg. And a funny one, too.

[Diane]

Poo. Flung. Next..

[Barrett Dorko]

Another insulting post. They're adding up.

[John W]

Vanna, can I buy a reference?

[John W]

My sense of reason, logic, common sense and critical thinking were all insulted in that last post by ginger.

ginger, if you can't recognize the insult in your ongoing assertion that certain members of this board are purveyors of woo because they can defend with current neuroscientific evidence that gentle handling of the head can be an effective intervention for treating a persistent pain problem in the ankle, then the trees aren't the only thing in your horse stalls that need lopping.

You should not persist in this or you will make ANdy and me uncomfortable.