Beethoven's 5th Symphony

[nari]

Question:


Is Beethoven's Fifth a meme?



Nari

[bernard]

A weird question in the Eye-deas forum, Nari! :lol:

[nari]

Bernard, I usually put things in the wrong forum, you know that...

Am waiting for Diane's response as well.

(Dawkins thought the 9th was a meme in itself)


Nari

[bernard]

Nari,

Move the topic with your moderator skill! (with the little ball, the one with an green arrow). 8)

[Diane]

I don't know Nari, I haven't read Suasn Blackmore's book yet!
What do you think?
Diane

[nari]

I thought you would have some ideas on what is and isn't a meme?

I cheated - I read the chapter on what is and isn't, and Blackmore considers Dawkins is wrong. He figured the 9th was an entire meme in itself, because it is instantly familiar to so many people. Blackmore considers he got a bit carried away - we do not really recall the entire symphony, only the "Ode to Joy" bits, and the 5th, she says, is only a meme for the first 4 notes. The rest is recognisable when we hear it, but we could not imitate Beethoven and write the entire symphony out from memory.

So the meme/s decide 'wow' and replicate happily on the easier stuff.
Which is why we remember ads - I can remember clearly the ad for Winston cigarettes from 55 years ago! and the tune. That is a meme.
But it is not known 'where' they reside or if they are totally distinct from, or part of operant and conditioned memory...


Nari

[Diane]

OK, so it sounds like a "meme" is the part of a song or other bit of music that drops straight in, effortlessly, and goes around and around in the mind like a tape loop. The part that we start humming unselfconsciously. The part that we complain about.."I can't get this tune out of my head!" The part that bothers us, gives us a mental itch where we can't scratch..
Think so?
Diane

[nari]

I am jumping the gun here, as i am only halfway through her book, but the gist of the text so far is:

Memes are hungry, always looking for fresh fields to replicate. Their duty is similar to genes, their sole purpose in life is to replicate themselves.
When there are too many for the brain/body to cope with, there is selective weeding, done on a subconscious level. We do not have a choice in this; although we think we have. Strong memes survive, the fat and fertilised ones, the ones that have been consciously 'enjoyed' by us, such as listening to a rich and beautiful voice on a CD- that voice lingers for a long time - or someone going to a religious festival and being swept off their feet by the hype and promises....
Meditation clears the ground, weeds out the junk, and the strong memes remain, to replicate and get stronger. Which is why, possibly, meditation helps so much with pain; the 'junk' memes are cleared out.

The actual difference between the way genes behave compared with memes is unclear, although there are similarities.

Critics of memetics anguish over the loss of 'free will' with these concepts, but Blackmore denies this - but haven't got to that part yet....

What intrigues me is the fact we do not consciously 'create' a meme.
Maybe the virtual body does....


Nari

[bernard]

Nari,

May I say that the simple fact to say "virtual body" is already a meme!
They move in our brain and are so real! Thus virtual is not clear.

About notes and music:
Some simple notes are found all around the world (i.e. while mothers rocking their babies) and we may consider them as genes or meme?

[nari]

Bernard,

The idea was to use an expression used by Moseley and Butler and some others, to make it quite distinct from the 'body' of which we have some conscious recognition.

Mothers rocking their babies is probably a cultural meme - but I am not so sure yet. Need to absorb more of what Blackmore is trying to say.

Nari