LBP origins?

[bernard]

Hi Somasimplers,

Actually we have many patients with this kind of problem. It is a known visible fact that some discs have degenerated. This degeneration is quite unknown at its origin.

Is it normal? Is it a consequence of evolution?

What is the real cause of disc disease?

[oljoha]

I am not so sure we do have so many patients with this kind of problem. It's a known fact that the discs degenerate - no issues there. But the painful disc? That is not established. It's a fact that discs can refer pain - but that only happens when the nerve endings in the discs are sensitized.

My view of the degenerated disc and LBP pain is that it is a repetitive strain injury. One fact is that a degenerated disc makes the segment more unstable - which will cause the muscles (multifidus especially) to become overworked, then painful, inhibited and athrophied (which is the rule by the time this patient presents in the clinic). I believe the painful disc is a result of convergence upon these other nociceptors.

Disc degeneration it self can happen due to many circumstances. One is genetic coding errors which weaken the tissue. A compromise of disc nutrition is another - here we can relate nutrition, movement and even smoking. And then there are the traumatic ones... endplate fractures etc which again compromise nutrition.

I never understood the McKenzie dearrangement thing - if you were able to get better by doing extension exercises, then by my reasoning you could never flex your back again. Besides there is so much else happening during extension! Streching of the psoas, lots of neural mobilization, the anterior longitudinal ligament is entrenched with a tight web of sympathetic nerves etc etc... Things which should not be neglected in the centralization response.

In the cervical region though - disc degeneration is part of normal development...

Ofcourse - I may be mistaken! Still I get good results in the clinic and that's what count - haven't hurt anyone yet.

[rolf]

Hi !

"What is the real cause of disc disease?"

Bernard,do you consider degenerated discs as a disc diseases?

To me degenerated discs arent anything else than a normal repons to stress,in one form or another(physical and/or emotional)

Its more normal to have degenerated discs in your spine without any pain than degenerated painfull discs.

In my clinical practise i more often find a neuromuscular connection to the pain experience than a painfull disc.(i now ,you find what you are looking fore)
RIN :wink: :wink: :wink:

[rolf]

Hi!

1: J Bone Joint Surg Br. 1998 Jan;80(1):19-24. Related Articles, Links


MRI of cervical intervertebral discs in asymptomatic subjects.

Matsumoto M, Fujimura Y, Suzuki N, Nishi Y, Nakamura M, Yabe Y, Shiga H.

Keio University School of Medicine, Tokyo, Japan.

We studied degenerative changes in the cervical intervertebral discs of 497 asymptomatic subjects by MRI and evaluated disc degeneration by loss of signal intensity, posterior and anterior disc protrusion, narrowing of the disc space and foraminal stenosis. In each subject, five disc levels from C2-C3 to C6-C7 were evaluated. The frequency of all degenerative findings increased linearly with age. Disc degeneration was the most common observation, being present in 17% of discs of men and 12% of those of women in their twenties, and 86% and 89% of discs of both men and women over 60 years of age. We found significant differences in frequency between genders for posterior disc protrusion and foraminal stenosis. The former, with demonstrable compression of the spinal cord, was observed in 7.6% of subjects, mostly over 50 years of age. Our results should be taken into account when interpreting the MRI findings in patients with symptomatic disorders of the cervical spine.

PMID: 9460946 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

sleep well!
RIN
:wink: :wink: :wink:

[oljoha]

Hello oljoha,
Welcome on Somasimple board. There is another fellow coming from Norway, Rolf. Norway is invading the forums.

Hi Bernard. Rolf posted a link to this board on a Norwegian board (which is so lame). I've got a board just like this myself (http://debatt.fysioterapi.info/) - however Norwegians are so uninterested (except Rolf that is)... Hi Rolf!

Bernard - Are you in France? Are you French? Just curious

1/ We are seeing effectively degenerated discs, the infamous DDD, for US readers. Many researches try to put a guilty guy on this fact. Some think about genes errors, others blame weight lifting, stress, and societies.

A Finnish study of twins showed that disc prolapse occurs on the same levels even when they have different life styles. Weigth lifting, stress and society is probably more a reason for when pain set it - rather than a cause. IMHO

2/ Another riddle is this one. The disc is known too to have better physical properties than vertebrae. It resists more than bone in axial compression. So, if it resists more to pressure, why are we encountering DDD and not really much more vertebral problems. A big contradiction!

Not only axial compression - one study where they tried to inflict a disc herniation in a perfectly healthy disc the vertebraes failed first. In other words - they only herniate after they have begun to degenerate. This is where I go back to genetics and nutrition.

What's your take on McKenzie?

[oljoha]

1: J Bone Joint Surg Br. 1998 Jan;80(1):19-24. Related Articles, Links
MRI of cervical intervertebral discs in asymptomatic subjects.


In everyone of us - once we're well into our twenties - our cervical nucleus pulposus is nothing but a fibrous mass. Usually there is a cleft transecting the nucleus, often the entire disc... from one uncovertebral joint to the other. These clefts begin to develop as the uncovertebral joints are taking shape - this is neccessary to allow rotation / sidebending.

Cervical discs differ from thoracic and lumbar discs.[22] The translation that is part of normal cervical movement causes a shear effect across the discs, forming lateral uncovertebral clefts at puberty and complete transverse fissures through the posterior half of each disc by the mid-30s. We must distinguish these age-related fissures from injuries.

http://www.bcma.org/public/bc_medical_journal/BCMJ/june_2002/PathologyNeckSprain.asp

BC Medical Journal Volume 44, Number 5, June 2002, page 52-256

[bernard]

Bernard,do you consider degenerated discs as a disc diseases?

To me degenerated discs arent anything else than a normal reponse to stress,in one form or another(physical and/or emotional)

I agree entirely about this external causation. But medicine fails to explain the process of degeneration (some abstracts show it but fail to conclude about it! :? ).

The process is a un-process one => immobility. It is a dysfunction.
It needs, of course a further explanation.

Bernard - Are you in France? Are you French? Just curious

I'm from France. You can see my profile (and other ones) in the memberlist page.

I agree with your conclusions about disc resistance.

What's your take on McKenzie?

if you were able to get better by doing extension exercises, then by my reasoning you could never flex your back again.

I'm a bit intrigued by your second statement.
Normally, the lumbar spine is in extension. The lordosis is a natural posture for low back.

Can you elaborate?

[oljoha]

If you were able to get better by doing extension exercises, then by my reasoning you could never flex your back again.
I'm a bit intrigued by your second statement.
Normally, the lumbar spine is in extension. The lordosis is a natural posture for low back.

Can you elaborate?
Related to the McKenzie theory of disarrangement... if you have the patient do extension exercises the material within the disc is supposed to move "back into place" which is supposedly the reason for decrease in pain and improvement in range, then what is supposed to prevent the material from displacing again the next time the patient bends the back? I'm just saying that there is probably another reason why extension exercises work (so many structures being stretched and moved).

[bernard]

I agree with you but the folowing article fits perfectly my opinion.

Iowa Orthop J. 2004;24:65-71. Related Articles, Links

Spine height and disc height changes as the effect of hyperextension using stadiometry and MRI.

Kourtis D, Magnusson ML, Smith F, Hadjipavlou A, Pope MH.

Liberty Worksafe Research Centre, Dept of Environmental and Occupational Medicine, University of Aberdeen, Aberdeen, Scotland, UK.

STUDY DESIGN: In vivo biomechanical design using stadiometry and MRI to measure the height change due to (hyper)extension. SUMMARY OF BACKGROUND DATA: Spine height is decreased under loads such as lifting, whole body vibration and sitting. Extension including increased lumbar lordosis reduces the load on the spine. METHODS: The aim was to assess the effects of a supine hyperextended posture as a means of restoring the intervertebral disc height after loading and allowing rehydration of the discs. Ten healthy male subjects were tested. A hyperextension intervention was achieved by the means of an inflatable cushion placed under the lumbar spine. The spine height was measured using a stadiometer and MRI was used to assess disc height changes. RESULTS: The spine height gain after 10 minutes of a supine hyperextended posture differed significantly between individuals but everybody gained height. MRI images of the lumbar spine were used to measure the disc height. All but one subjects gained height during the hyperextension. Images of the spine during hyperextended posture showed increased lumbar curve and an increased anterior height of each disc compared with the dimensions of the disc with the spine in neutral posture. CONCLUSIONS: All subjects lost height during sitting. Both methods demonstrated a recovery of height due to hyperextension. Hyperextension could be considered as a prophylaxis against the height loss in occupational loading.

PMID: 15296209 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[fapt]

I agree with you but the folowing article fits perfectly my opinion.

Iowa Orthop J. 2004;24:65-71. Related Articles, Links

Spine height and disc height changes as the effect of hyperextension using stadiometry and MRI.

Kourtis D, Magnusson ML, Smith F, Hadjipavlou A, Pope MH.

Liberty Worksafe Research Centre, Dept of Environmental and Occupational Medicine, University of Aberdeen, Aberdeen, Scotland, UK.

STUDY DESIGN: In vivo biomechanical design using stadiometry and MRI to measure the height change due to (hyper)extension. SUMMARY OF BACKGROUND DATA: Spine height is decreased under loads such as lifting, whole body vibration and sitting. Extension including increased lumbar lordosis reduces the load on the spine. METHODS: The aim was to assess the effects of a supine hyperextended posture as a means of restoring the intervertebral disc height after loading and allowing rehydration of the discs. Ten healthy male subjects were tested. A hyperextension intervention was achieved by the means of an inflatable cushion placed under the lumbar spine. The spine height was measured using a stadiometer and MRI was used to assess disc height changes. RESULTS: The spine height gain after 10 minutes of a supine hyperextended posture differed significantly between individuals but everybody gained height. MRI images of the lumbar spine were used to measure the disc height. All but one subjects gained height during the hyperextension. Images of the spine during hyperextended posture showed increased lumbar curve and an increased anterior height of each disc compared with the dimensions of the disc with the spine in neutral posture. CONCLUSIONS: All subjects lost height during sitting. Both methods demonstrated a recovery of height due to hyperextension. Hyperextension could be considered as a prophylaxis against the height loss in occupational loading.

PMID: 15296209 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
But it didn't say how is the degeneration?

[oljoha]

I agree with you but the folowing article fits perfectly my opinion.

Very interesting study. How do you relate it to pain (the centralization response of pain distribution)? An increase in height will do two things: 1. make the segments more stable. 2. increase pressure within the disc during movements.

[bernard]

Hi Somasimplers,

I think that the key issue is the hydration/dehydration level.

1/ I think that our lordosis is not really compatible with sitting for a long duration.
2/ If the normal position of lumbar spine is a lordosis, we can consider that the normal stable position is lordosis! In this case, all activities may fortunately change it but the rest position must return to this stable state.
3/ the lordosis is the best position to rehydration => the best way to avoid disc problems. The problems occur in the most cases when the disc is dehydrated and it is normal since the physical properties of IVD are fewer in this case.
4/ the rehydration process is quick and the dehydration one permit to bend a minimal duration of 30 min. It is quite long but we are sitting for hours!
5/ hydration make the disc more resistant but I can't affirm that it is more stable since the stability is insured by muscles.
6/More hydration augment surface of contact and decreases pressure in my view and gives more chances to avoid roots problems.

[oljoha]

3/ the lordosis is the best position to rehydration => the best way to avoid disc problems. The problems occur in the most cases when the disc is dehydrated and it is normal since the physical properties of IVD are fewer in this case.
5/ hydration make the disc more resistant but I can't affirm that it is more stable since the stability is insured by muscles.
6/More hydration augment surface of contact and decreases pressure in my view and gives more chances to avoid roots problems.
Ad 3: Disc herniations does not occur if the disc has not already begun to degenerate. It herniates more easily when the disc is well hydrated - i.e. early in the morning.
Ad 5: A disc which has lost some of its hydration is lower in height and thus it's neutral zone is larger - the ligaments and muscles will also be more slack and muscles need to work in a more contracted position.
Ad 6: With more hydration the pressure will be higher - not neccessarily a bad thing - pressure is good for stability... If you bend over then muscles and ligaments will be tighter sooner and you will have more pressure and a higher risk of herniation.

One strategy that apparently works well for managing many LBP patients is to have them avoid all flexion during the first three hours of the day - ie until the disc height is reduced.

Food for thought.

[bernard]

:D :D :D

I was waiting for these ones!

3/ after rest it is clear that if disc is completely rehydrated then disc is less resistant but all papers found were on animals and spines pieces.

5/ It makes sense. The disc resistance is certainly more resistance between two levels. It is the normal hydration level, other ones are certainly not pretty for resistance.

6/ this point needs certainly a movie, I'll try on it and it is related to the 5.

ps: your avatar is not loaded. :oops:

[nari]

Welcome to our Norwegian colleagues.

I have been to only one country in Europe - Norway. I did the Hurtigruten round trip and it was an experience of a lifetime. Loved the country and its people. Facing a Force 8 gale in the Barents was unreal.

Anyway - the spine with its discs and ligaments and various bits and pieces; I think no-one is sure about what causes spinal pain. Down the track. after months have passed and still there is pain -it has to be central sensitisation.
I use McKenzie, occasionally, with good results, but I do not think the disc nucleus 'moves back'. There are too many other structures to consider; one is the stretch on the anterior ligament let alone other tissue.
Patients become so fixated on 'their arthritis' or their 'slipped discs' that I try to tell them that may not be so, and it doesn't mean the disc will be implicated (unless it has sequestered).

One point that I try to explain is a 'pinched/compressed' nerve does not cause pain in the act of compression, and show them by compressing and pinching a nerve or two. They are surprised it is painfree, and start to think about chemical irritants - or try to. The sural nerve is a good one to play with as it is accessible, and Tib Posterior.

But, as Bernard and Diane will agree, I am a nerve freak....


Nari

[bernard]

Nari the Nerve, Diane the Skin, Bernard the Neuron, All mad about Human beings?

BTW, Nari, let me play a bit with IVD because I wanted to go upward! :wink:

[oljoha]

Hi Nari. Our paths have crossed briefly over at noigroup. I've been to your country too. Spent a year in Perth, did a grad cert in manual therapy @ Curtin Uni. Currently working on my masters with UWA. Going to Perth 3 months in the beginning of next year.

I'm more a nerve / muscle guy. The interface between them is something I like to play with (using neural stretches and ART). Works like a charm. This is also why I consider what many call a "disc problem" to be nothing but a case of repetitive strain of muscle, ligaments and nerve - with the following sentitization. I find that the sentitized state usually subsides when the soft tissues are treated properly. With ART they simply melt under my hands - I can usually feel the texture change with each pass.

I'm just going to recommend that everybody take an ART seminar http://www.activerelease.com and then I'm going to shut up about it. I'm very passionate about it.

Ok, Bernard - You were saying you wanted to go upward. Up where?

[bernard]

Hello Somasimplers,

Oljoha, I think that ART is not very far from Diane's work or mine.
We are all trying to release actively the bodies of patients.

Feel free to post a subject about ART!

Upward to brain connection.
If we were designed with lordosis then the shape of IVD was made to allow some natural movement in a restricted (how much?) range. In the same way, the hydration which is certainly very important as we stated for resistance was designed in a restricted range.

It makes sense to me that going outside these allowed ranges may produce a signal/reaction submitted to brain?

In an other way, if dehydration occurs in a slow manner, the signal is perhaps lost by brain (accomodation) and then the design of moving (IVD + vertebrae) is changed => problems?

[Diane]

Welcome to the board oljoha. I totally agree with your passion for treating soft tissue, and I hear ART is pretty good. I think there are lots of roads to Rome though, there are many techniques that accomplish what you describe. After a time they sort of all blend together, and your own style emerges.

Pretty much anything that one does to tissue has to go through skin, which is why I'm being a "skinhead" these days. ART pushes the skin one way, while a muscle is contracting, pulling from underneath in another vector, correct? Anything to stretch out those little below the skin ligaments, and the little nerves that tunnel through their centers... Nari calls this "microneurodynamics"..
Cheers,
Diane

[bernard]

Back to the Backs =>

Sitting is not really good!
http://asb-biomech.org/onlineabs/NACOB98/210/

[bernard]

Hi All,

So, a medial synthesis shows;

1/ bending forward decreases hydration.
2/ bendind forward decreases height of IVD
3/ protrusions are done while bending

4/ extension of LB increases resistance
5/ extension increase stiffness
6/ extension increases IVD space
7/ extension increases hydration

Instability of LB is defined by the 3 first replies.

Core stabilization is done with a reduced lordosis and a compression of the LB. It is clearly a nonsense?

[nari]

Bernard

It has been shown that sitting does NOT compress discs more than standing or walking, etc. and I will try and dig out the study.

Your theory about core stabilisation when the spine is not in lordosis, or in reduced lordosis is interesting. Mechanically, it makes more sense.
It does not make sense to tilt the pelvis in order to teach TA and Mf control. it should be in neutral or slightly extended; yet many PTs and nonPTs teach pelvic tilting AND TA - which does not mean 'core stability' in the sense that Hodges et all intended..


Nari

[bernard]

Nari,

You put too much importance on the findings. :oops: It is not my theory but another way to see human functioning. It seems to fit in a better way, the scientific observations?

I read the paper about sitting, I'll put this one on the reference forum.

There is one study, two posts upward, also.

BTW, what is the definition and goals of core stability? :roll:

[bernard]

Here is two lumbar disc and I show the normal animation used by medicine to explain disc herniations! The center of rotation is set to center of gravity of the superior vertebrae.

Just looking at this movie says to me that something is wrong!
THe flexion is 8° at end of movement.

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/lumbar01.swf


flash version (http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/lumbar01.swf)
html version (http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/lumbar01_test.html)

You can enlarge the view by clicking on flash version!

[oljoha]

Just looking at this movie says to me that something is wrong!
THe flexion is 8° at end of movement.


Yeah there is a lot missing in that animation. Like a hydrostatic functional disc and facet joints.

What are you getting at?

[bernard]

.Hi,

Of course but, I omitted expressly these things for the moments.

I reduced the movie to the vertabral boodies to show something wrong, the movement of the vertebrae! But this kind of movement is used to explain nucleus pulposus movments and herniations.

In my view, this kind of motion does not fit physics!

I'll put another ones to enhance the explanations! it was planned :wink:

[oljoha]

In my view, this kind of motion does not fit physics!

Agree.

[bernard]

Hi all,

I removed disc and NP to show the movement of bone and within my little 25 years of experience, looking at RXs, this kind of misalignment is quite rare in lumbar spine.

The rupture of curvature (discontinuity) needs as official medicine two things;
1/ NP must move and rotate in backward direction.
2/ IVD is then reducted.

Many LBP have IVD respected.

ps: the first animation respect IVD space.

[bernard]

Here is second animation which is respecting curvature but do not respect the normal history of the moving NP.

Of course, it is only applied physics but it matches better what we are seeing on RXs.

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/lumbar02.swf


flash version (http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/lumbar02.swf)
html version (http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/lumbar02_test.html)

You can enlarge the view by clicking on flash version!

The only way to respect alignment of vertebrae (and spinal cord) is to change the position of the center of movement!

The red spot shows it. Do you see where I'm going? :wink:

[bernard]

Hi there,

I put some axes with the first movie.
It helps to show the displacement over the NP.
Normal condition of hydration of course.

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/lumbar03.swf


flash version (http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/lumbar03.swf)
html version (http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/lumbar03_test.html)

You can enlarge the view by clicking on flash version!

[bernard]

Now the version that seems more natural and more intelligent?


http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/lumbar04.swf


flash version (http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/lumbar04.swf)
html version (http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/lumbar04_test.html)

You can enlarge the view by clicking on flash version!

Changing the center of rotation reduces the displacement of bone over NP and then reduces friction. Nature adopted this one.

NP acts not really as a ball but much more as a pivot? This way of thinking permits, also, to reverse the image/body and is still functioning!

Marvelous!

[Diane]

Nice Bernard,
I think I would put the center of the bending force in the middle of the disc, and allow the bones to bend around it.. The discs are, after all, firmly bound to both end plates, and the best place to move is in the (squishier) disc, not at the end plate. I think the discs are there in the first place, to permit movement forward from the axis.

Like all of you, I don't think discs hurt. There are many structures around the disc, in the vicinity of the disc, that could start up the cascade however, like vasculature (PTs practically never consider nocioception from vasculature); tiny thread like vessels, strained by too much of one kind of posture, no demand to be patent, too much physical stress.

Even the smallest structure in the body can eventually be stressed to the point of no return if its own blood supply is hampered. Every vessel needs to have oxygen too! and every vessel is innervated. Every innervation of every vessel is faithfully reporting back to the brain at some level, that there's mechanical or suffocatory stress happening somewhere. If this weak signal is ignored, the brain has no choice but to create a pain signal that the organism will eventually hear/respond to.

And vascular formation is very susceptible to mal-formation. It's a supply problem the growing embryo seems to have never quite got a good handle on. It makes do building vasculature in a bit of an ad hoc, haphazard way, out of embryologic leftovers, as if it's constantly in a rush, hurrying to catch up to itself. It spends way more careful effort building in other kinds of mesoderm, I think. Makes fewer mistakes with muscles and bones. Tends to get a bit rushed and sloppy with the blood supply. Only cares that there's enough, not how it's built, or what forces might eventually come to bear on it.

It's a possibility at any rate.
Diane

[bernard]

Diane,

I think I would put the center of the bending force in the middle of the disc, and allow the bones to bend around it..

It was my previous idea and it doesn't work. If I put the center of rotation in the center of NP, then we have an animation which is quite between the two provided.

In this case, we encounter again the problem of dys-curvature. If the disc is taken as a soft pivot but linked with all movements of the surrounding vertebrae then we get the maximum performances and the better compliances with the RX observations.

I'll make the medial center of rotation anim for you!

We will see that with facet joints!

ps: I agree about vasculature!!!

[bernard]

Here is the version of Diane,

It works too, but the disc is more stressed. :oops:

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/lumbardiane.swf


flash version (http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/lumbardiane.swf)
html version (http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/lumbardiane_test.html)

You can enlarge the view by clicking on flash version!

[bernard]

Diane,

I tried to compare the two animations and they give quite the same results, with the center put below thus the vertebrae moves more frontward. The other differences are negligible.

[Diane]

I like your latest version Bernard, it makes more sense to me. Consider also that the pressures will cause a bit of shear force through the disc, making your two-dimensional image of it flatten a bit and stretch in a "Z" shape force, only reversed.. a backward "Z".. probably too hard to image.
Diane

[bernard]

Diane,

I have to try this. It is certainly possible! 8)

[oljoha]

Hmm, I'm still not sure I know where you're going with this. Say flexion dehydrates the disc and extension helps hydrate it. The cause for a disc prolapse is degeneration which likely is a result of compromised nutrition. Rotation is also a culprit with respect to disc health...

Anyways - where you goin' ?

[bernard]

Hi Oljoha,

But in my view dehydration is also a result of compromised nutrition? :wink:

[bernard]

Diane,

Like that ?

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/lumbardiane02.swf


flash version (http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/lumbardiane02.swf)
html version (http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/lumbardiane02_test.html)

You can enlarge the view by clicking on flash version!

[Diane]

That's getting closer Bernard. Good stuff..
Diane

[bernard]

Thanks,

Now, I'll add the facets joints.
And then we will play with hydration!

[oljoha]

But in my view dehydration is also a result of compromised nutrition? :wink:

Well there are natural fluctuations in hydration due to pressure (loading / unloading). This is one mechanism through which the disc receives nutrition. You know - your vertebrae will break before any healthy disc prolapses. Hence - I think prolonged pressure (and therefore prolonged dehydration) will not be healthy to the nutrition of the disc. I don't think it matters what we do - if we sit, stand, run, lift or whatever. The important thing regarding disc health is that we do not stay in the same position for too long - we need to keep moving (which improves the nutrition of the disc).

[bernard]

Hello Oljoha,

Absolutely, moving is the only solution. This site is also intended to help patients, and PTs who do not understand clearly that as you do!

[oljoha]

Hello Oljoha,

Absolutely, moving is the only solution. This site is also intended to help patients, and PTs who do not understand clearly that as you do!

I just hope I'm on the right track. Could be we're all barking up the wrong tree. Sometimes it feels the more I read the dumber I get.

Have a nice weekend y'all.

[bernard]

I think that we are on the same road!
Have a nice weekend, too!

[bernard]

Hi Somasimplers,

I'm working on a more physiological animation.
It needs only a bit of refinement but the center of rotation is in a good place.

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/lumbardiane05.swf

flash version (http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/lumbardiane05.swf)
html version (http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/lumbardiane05_test.html)

You can enlarge the view by clicking on flash version!

[bernard]

Somasimplers,

The last version was updated!

[bernard]

Hi All,

I tried with some dehydration of IVD and I found that extension is reduced and flexion augmented.

It seems that we have a good candidate to LBP!

I'm working with these animations (put together).