I got to meet Barrett!

[BB]

Yesterday I got to meet Barrett and take his simple contact course. It was a great day for me. I'm going to write about my new adventures in ideomotion in a couple of days.

[Brian Bettendorf]

I was at the course also, and enjoyed meeting both Barrett and Cory. To me, the course exceeded my expectations, as I left the course with more questions than I came in with. I have since been catching up on the forum threads and looking forward to participating in the discussions.

Based on my conversation with Cory, I'm waiting to find out when Diane is going to hold another workshop on her "ectodermal approach". (Hint to Diane). In the meantime, I'm sure there is plenty of info. for me to find on the forum.

[Barrett Dorko]

Brian,

I was glad to see you there. For others, Brian is an exercise physiologist with whom I've corresponded in the past. I'm sorry I didn't get a picture as I did with Cory.

I know this is Cory's thread, but I wanted to mention how pleased I was to have him attend the course. As you often hear said of certain sports figures, he strikes me as a "throw back" i.e. the sort of player/therapist I used to see more of - committed, focused, well-read beyond most's imagining. Both quietly thoughtful and willing to contribute, he made my day an easy one.

[Diane]

Here is a picture of Cory and Barrett at the course.
Brian and Cory, was it everything you expected?

[BB]

I have a few quick thoughts on the class.

It was great to finally meet Barrett as well as meet Brian and Seth.

Barrett has done such a good job of teaching for free over the internet that I really felt as though he is trying to give away his course. Anyone not taking advantage of this is crazy. How many people have you heard of that gives away such valuable, usable, supported information to whoever is willing to read it?

Having said that, even after all the reading I've never been able to elicit simple contact from reading. And, as everyone else has said, it is just so simple. It's as if we've got to be given permission to express ideomotion before we can know how to give that same permission to others.

Having done it a bit on myself, the feeling I have been left with is one of authenticity. I've heard this said on here before and it seemed a bit vague to me, but there is just no better way to say it.

Thank you so much Barrett.

More later....

[BB]

Is it common for the expressed ideomotion to become rythmic, repeated? I feel as if the patient is coercing themselves. I'm not telling them to stop though because I want the movement to be thier own.

I'm also getting a lot of "you're the one moving me"'s. I show them that I'm not by actually guiding them for a second.

???

[nari]

Cory,

That's part of the surprise factor. They can't believe they can move so comfortably, by themselves.
I have had a few patients do repetitive movements, without exception towards the more painful side. I don't think they would consciously wander towards that side. I found it fascinating that they do the very thing that we were trained NOT to get them to do....

Nari

[EricM]

Cory,
Is it common for the expressed ideomotion to become rythmic, repeated?

In your Unified Theory thread (or a branch of it) I think you asked wether ideomotion was or could be exploratory? Maybe the rhythmic characteristics of the movements are the organisms way of exploring it's boundaries?

Eric

[Diane]

I've had people do repetitive things. I just let them. It's their choice. I think Eric's idea is valid.
I hate doing anything the same way twice, but that's me, not them.

[Luke Rickards]

Cory,

This is not uncommon in my practice. Only occasionally do I sense that something isn't quite right when I see this (remember the CoC), however, even then at least they are getting the idea that moving is OK, and a little advice to slow it down and (often) a change of contact from me will lead easliy to a more productive response.

Having a patient say that you are moving them lets you know straight away that their movement is unconsciously generated. This is part of the surprise characteristic.

[Barrett Dorko]

Yes, what Luke said.

Given the intricate nature of any movement I rather doubt that that which appears repetitive or rhythmic is actually so. There are very real changes in speed and size and muscle recruitment that vary beneath the awareness of both patient and therapist going on here.

In any case, it isn't the speed, size, direction or timing of the ideomotion that is important - it is the characteristics of correction to which I attend.

[EricM]

Barrett, hypothetically, I'm considering the use of Simple Contact with someone in the absence of pain. The characteristics of correction would be unimportant, correct? Presumably, the movement still has a purpose, expression of some sort. I wonder if there are specific characteristics of movement that satisfies that purpose? Is our expression of ideomotor movement less culturally inhibited when it's purpose is other than the resolution of pain?

Eric

[Barrett Dorko]

Excellent question Eric.

I focus on correction when teaching because I presume that the class is interested primarily in helping others in pain, and, as I say, movement is only truly analgesic when it is corrective in nature.

However, there's a larger issue here, an issue that many find a bit unsettling whenever it's addressed; authenticity. Obviously, this is because authenticity, whether verbal or nonverbal, carries with it the possibility of trouble not only for those expressing it but also for those around them. The great paradox of living our own lives is that such a thing, while good for us, is so commonly troublesome for a culture that would prefer we be something else.

Ideomotion is a creative act, and it's not concurrent with pain, it's concurrent with life. It's not been my experience that anyone (barring specific disabilities) can't "do" this given the opportunity, or that the characteristics of correction (which do not include the relief of pain in any case) will not persistently emerge. You might conclude that creative activity is also inherent to life but, like ideomotion, is commonly suppressed.

I'm reminded of a passge from David Whyte's book The Heart Aroused - Poetry and the Preservation of the Soul. He recounts asking a group of managers to write something and a woman came up with this:

Ten years ago
I turned my face for a moment
and it became my life

"Turning our faces," so to speak, back toward who we really are is what maturity and selfhood is all about. Ideomotion is one path, a portion of which would quite logically lead toward relief from the pain of the abnormal neurodynamic.

"Stop posing and posturing," I say to my classes. "Become who you are." This is usually met with uncomfortable silence, but I think making the decision each day to discover more about what that means is the only thing that will generate the kind of therapist our patients need.

[Jason Silvernail]

Eric-

I don't mean to answer for Barrett, but I have found the CoC occur even in those without pain.
They still have the benefits of increased blood flow to the necessary nervous tissue, reduction of any strain in the system, and movement towards parasympathetic tone.

Cory-
I get the rhythmic head movement all the time in my patients. Double ditto what Luke said...

J

[BB]

Thanks everyone. Luke, it was indeed the lack of the charecteristics of correction that had me concerned. Yesterday had been my first clinic day with SC. Today was a new dawn! Every pt. demonstrated the CoC and responded beautifully.

A couple of thoughts on the possible difference between the 2 days. Yesterday I made my initial contact from behind the pt. Today, I approached them from the front. I think this may have caused them to avoid my eye contact and therefore look more within themselves. Also, my own attitude was one of less timidity (is that a word?).

Today for me was one of those rare "wow" days that we get to experience in a career. One where we get to hear and think it over and over. I've had a few of these days already, so I'm lucky. Mostly I'm lucky to have ever encountered this site.

Brian,
The posts by Eric, Jason, and Barrett seem to fit right along with your interest in pursuing ideomotion in a wellness/fitness setting.

[Brian Bettendorf]

Many thoughts to sort through this week. I sense the powerful potential of authenticity. Allowing people to break free from the rules of how they "should" sit, stand, move, talk, etc. has been liberating for two people I worked with this week. The concept came across as being too simple for them, yet difficult to buy into based upon what they believed to be true. The freedom from pain - or at least control over their pain - was enough to convince them.

I think from a wellness/fitness persepective, or when dealing with people without pain, Barretts idea of ideomotion as a way of life is correct.

Potentially the wrong thread here, but when looking at intraneural blood flow, is there any correlation to increasing aerobic capacity and increaed vascularity of neural tissue? Do diseases including diabetes (glycolisization of hemoglobin leading the neuropathies), and atheroslcerosis, which causes decrease blood flow in the small capillary beds, do the same to intraneural blood flow? What role may physical activity, not necessarily structured physical activity like a gym program, but movement for movements sake that maintains metabolic and cardiovascular health also enhance the "health" of the nervous tissue?

[Karie]

Just an added technique to the ideomotor actions, if you put a slight drag on the repetitive motion, they immediately lock into what I would describe as a "stacking" feeling throughout the whole body which is then followed by a major "release" of whatever the nervous system was coordinating. It's almost like the conscious and nonconscious is trying to skirt a "big" piece and when you supply the suttle drag to the movement, it forwards it into the nervous systems release plan. That's my way of thinking of it. :)

Karie

[Barrett Dorko]

Karie,

While I have nothing specifically against this sort of advice and might have given it myself a few years ago, I see repetition of the sort described as an illusion, which is not to say that it doesn't exist but only that it isn't what we think it is. There's also this - the word "release" makes me mildly nauseous. The reasons for that are found elsewhere on this board. I don't mean to be critical, it's just a personal aversion I've developed.

"So," you ask, "what is it?" And I say, "I'm not certain, but I think the emergence of rhythms and patterns is primarily a function of the handler rather than the handled."

If I return to the verbal analogy of therapeutic speech and apply it to therapeutic movement we could say that the same words used repetitively won't get us anywhere in our understanding. But the same words used with a slightly different emphasis can mean entirely different things, which is why it is wise to remain vigilant when listening to them. Furthermore, our ways of being with others dictate to a large degree what they are willing to say, and this must be taken into account as well. Somewhere in there our control and precision as practitoners is exposed and cultivated.

Remember that for me - and I suppose I have the most experience with ideomotion among us here - the movement itself is not nearly as important as the warming experienced by the patient. The longer I work the more The Law of the Artery (Andrew Taylor Still circa 1876) rings true, especially in those patients with an abnormal neurodynamic. Even if there's no discernable movement at all, which is common in my practice, I'd stick with whatever contact led to warming. And, after all, isn't no movement a repetitive tremor taken to its greatest extent?

That last is a classic observation of Oliver Sacks in Awakenings.

So, it's down to blood flow, and as luck would have it I recently came across a poem that spoke of it primacy. It's by Catherine Doty and it's titled "Yes."

It's about the blood
banging in the body,
and the brain
lolling in its bed
like a happy baby.
At your touch, the nerve,
that volatile spook tree,
vibrates. The lungs
take up their work
with a giddy vigor.
Tremors in the joints
and tympani,
dust storms
in the canister of sugar.
The coil of ribs
heats up, begins
to glow. Come
here.

Pretty good, huh? I emboldened the words that describe the effect of Simple Contact.

[Karie]

Barrett,

I like the poem but not the nauseousness part. I didn't define release, but warming/increased blood flow is definately there.

Karie

[Barrett Dorko]

Karie,

Certain people have ruined a perfectly good word, and not for the first time. Of course it's not your fault, but in my experience, most reading what we say won't take the time to investigate the chasm between my thinking and Barnes'. I cannot tolerate any connection and thus have come to feel as I do.

I never said you defined it, only that you used it. Be my guest, but when describing what happens in the clinic I feel we must now be careful. It's not "simply semantics" that I speak of here, it's my profession and how it's been mutated.

[Karie]

Barrett,

Okay I understand, could you give me a better word to use when talking about the change that occurs from symptom A to improved ???? B.

Karie :)

[Barrett Dorko]

Karie,

I always presume that pain relief secondary to movement is a consequence of a reduction in mechanical deformation, which would be it's origin.

We're better off calling it some version of that: untwisting, reduced mechanical tension, perhaps even reduced compression. I use these words in various combinations depending on what I might reasonably guess about what I can't actually see. This also depends upon what I feel the patient will understand.

The word "release" implies that something was being held, perhaps by some mysterious force.

Ick.

[Karie]

Barrett,

Okay, I will try to use those type of words when I write here, but know that for my filter of life, release has nothing to do with some mysterious force, it can be something that is released from a mechanical force in the body, neurological holding/misfiring, a miriad of complexities that the human body is capable of doing to splint/protect/heal/adapt etc. in an area. So I don't come from the same perspective, but can respect your aversion.

Although, I probably don't elicit ideomotor in the same manner as you, I have been working with it for over 10 years and I did feel I could respond with some experience on the repetitive aspect that sometimes occurs. As for me generating it, I really doubt it because I can be very neutral in the expression of my hands. I can remove my hands during the repetitive motion and they will continue to move repetitively, plus I can be in another location on the body then where it is occurring. Not everyone elicits this motor pattern either..every person is an individual neuroligical system expressing itself in their own unique way.

So I won't use that icky word here anymore :zip: ;)

Karie

[Barrett Dorko]

Karie,

Wonderful post. I agree with you entirely.

Try not to pass out.